Tories turning attacks toward Layton, NDP

[Pliny]

The flat tax argument is a red herring. No one is proposing a true flat tax. All they are talking about is reducing the number of tax brackets from 5 to 2.

A true flax tax would eliminate deductions which would treat $60K taken in by a hot dog street vendor the same as $60K taken in by a teacher. They are not comparable incomes since the street vendor has expenses to pay and needs deductions. That is why flat taxes make no sense.

This is why income taxes are unfair and will always be unfair. What deductions are acceptable? If the hotdog vendor deducts his costs his "income" is after those deductions. What expenses should the teacher be able to deduct, if any?

A vat tax is more equitable and not punishing or discriminatory to income earners.

[blueblood]

That's not exactly true. Research shows there's an effect where people work less as they earn more. For instance, if they make enough to live comfortable, then all of a sudden find themselves making twice as much, many people will just work half as many hours. Take the same to be true with taxes. Decrease tax, people earn more and work less. So, it's not self-evident that people put extra zip into their work when they are taxed less, as you say.

I stated that effect earlier on regarding leisure time. If someone makes enough to be comfortable and are fine with what they make, its harder to justify putting extra effort when the extra work is dinged for half taxes. If I'm going to work more, I want to keep as much of it as I can instead of working for the govt.

Another thing with people as they earn more is that they have underlings or help hired out to assist in getting work done and thus more leisure time.

[cybercoma]

What expenses should the teacher be able to deduct, if any?

It's anecdotal, but I know a lot of teachers that buy books for their classrooms out of pocket. It's seriously travesty how much schools are lacking in funding.

Chapters/Coles/Indigo has an entire foundation dedicated to putting books in grade schools (literate people make good customers of course). You can check out what they claim the problems are and their mission here: loveofreading.org

You can also make a donation to any Chapters/Coles/Indigo store at any time. I try to donate to them pretty regularly due to what I've witnessed first-hand.

[cybercoma]

Just to add about teachers, when they spend their own money that props up the education system making it seem as though the amount that's invested into it by the government is enough when it's not. These people, however, care about children (why else become a teacher?) and will not allow them to go without.

[Scotty]

Yes, and I don't think people generally worry about how high their taxes will be until they've achieved that level.

Most people would say, "Man, I'd love to be in the top tax bracket!"

My income comes from overseas and from the US in the form of royalty cheques. My taxes on that will probably be over $100,000 this year. I am putting up with it. Taxation is one of the things you need to accept to be part of society. However, if those taxes rise substantially, and is spent on things which I consider unnecessary or stupid, then I'm going to have to think of moving to somewhere cheaper. My income doesn't depend on my location, after all, and there are places in the world where I would pay virtually no taxes on that income.

This is one of the things the government has to bear in mind. If you make it too expensive then a number of people - and companies - will opt out and you will get nothing.

Edited April 25, 2011 by Scotty

[Scotty]

29% on income over $128800K a year......so if one is close to that, why would someone want to go over by 10-15k a year?

Don't forget that provincial tax rates will add another 11%-21% to that. Now in places like Sweden you might wind up paying half your income in taxes, too, but you get a WHOLE LOT more back for that then we get from our Canadian governments.

Edited April 25, 2011 by Scotty

[punked]

Don't forget that provincial tax rates will add another 11%-16% to that. Now in places like Sweden you might wind up paying half your income in taxes, too, but you a WHOLE LOT more back for that then we get from our Canadian governments.

They also have a VAT of 25% on top of that.

[Scotty]

They also have a VAT of 25% on top of that.

Well, I can tell you categorically that if I lived in Sweden - I wouldn't be living in Sweden!

[RNG]

My income comes from overseas and from the US in the form of royalty cheques. My taxes on that will probably be over $100,000 this year. I am putting up with it. Taxation is one of the things you need to accept to be part of society. However, if those taxes rise substantially, and is spent on things which I consider unnecessary or stupid, then I'm going to have to think of moving to somewhere cheaper. My income doesn't depend on my location, after all, and there are places in the world where I would pay virtually no taxes on that income.

This is one of the things the government has to bear in mind. If you make it too expensive then a number of people - and companies - will opt out and you will get nothing.

This is something the UK government took the longest time to understand. They had these hellacious tax the rich rates, so as soon and an athlete or an entertainer got successful, they left. 15% of $2,000,000 is way more than 90% of zero.

[punked]

My income comes from overseas and from the US in the form of royalty cheques. My taxes on that will probably be over $100,000 this year. I am putting up with it. Taxation is one of the things you need to accept to be part of society. However, if those taxes rise substantially, and is spent on things which I consider unnecessary or stupid, then I'm going to have to think of moving to somewhere cheaper. My income doesn't depend on my location, after all, and there are places in the world where I would pay virtually no taxes on that income.

This is one of the things the government has to bear in mind. If you make it too expensive then a number of people - and companies - will opt out and you will get nothing.

No they understand it. However they also understand that the Canadian economy for the most part is a resource based economy we are not the US. Meaning most our money comes from what we have here in Canada. That means that most the jobs even the rich ones are tide to the land and being in or near it. It is awful to pick up your oil and move to US.

[TimG]

That means that most the jobs even the rich ones are tide to the land and being in or near it. It is awful to pick up your oil and move to US.

Not true. Many mining companies put their head offices in the US. Those that don't have Alberta.

[Guest Derek L]

Don't forget that provincial tax rates will add another 11%-21% to that. Now in places like Sweden you might wind up paying half your income in taxes, too, but you get a WHOLE LOT more back for that then we get from our Canadian governments.

Thats why I'm in favour of a (I guess wasn't all that clear) a national flat tax, with a VAT similar to the HST. Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with paying a portion of my income, as long as it's the same portion as everyone else.

With a Flat rate, parties will be less inclined to make their promises now that they can't pay for them off the backs of the "rich" alone.

[RNG]

No they understand it. However they also understand that the Canadian economy for the most part is a resource based economy we are not the US. Meaning most our money comes from what we have here in Canada. That means that most the jobs even the rich ones are tide to the land and being in or near it. It is awful to pick up your oil and move to US.

Actually it's easy. You incorporate in the country of your choice. Sell your Canadian company to the foreign one. Some problems transferring the cash but that's what you pay accountants for, it can be done.

[punked]

Not true. Many mining companies put their head offices in the US. Those that don't have Alberta.

Their head offices would be the US anyway. That is where the people live. If you say is true they would have their head offices in Bermuda where you pay no income tax.

Edited April 25, 2011 by punked

[Guest Derek L]

No they understand it. However they also understand that the Canadian economy for the most part is a resource based economy we are not the US. Meaning most our money comes from what we have here in Canada. That means that most the jobs even the rich ones are tide to the land and being in or near it. It is awful to pick up your oil and move to US.

Not really. Most oil companies that operate in Canada have operations in other parts of the world......An oilman can just as easly fly from Juneau to Northern BC/Alberta as he could fly from Calgary or Vancouver......

[punked]

Not really. Most oil companies that operate in Canada have operations in other parts of the world......An oilman can just as easly fly from Juneau to Northern BC/Alberta as he could fly from Calgary or Vancouver......

I have no idea what you mean? Most oil companies have office all over the world, however have their head office in the country where the company was founded. Our tax rate wouldn't get them over here if it was 0%.

[Guest Derek L]

I have no idea what you mean? Most oil companies have office all over the world, however have their head office in the country where the company was founded. Our tax rate wouldn't get them over here if it was 0%.

For example, Kinder Morgan has eight subsidaries in the states alone, most based in Houston. Now don't you think that if corprate taxes went up or a carbon tax was brought in, that Kinder Morgan Canada would all of a sudden stop showing profits?

As for the 0% rate, if that was brought in, we'd still recieve revenue from the Canadian shareholders and the workers in the form of income tax. Perhaps, a 0% rate might also encourage them to move some of their subsidaries's offices from Texas (already buisness freindly) into Canada? (And with them their wealthy shareholders)

[TimG]

Their head offices would be the US anyway. That is where the people live. If you say is true they would have their head offices in Bermuda where you pay no income tax.

My point is your argument is BS. On cannot assume that wealthy people will simple put up with high taxes because they earn their money from resources. They will move.

[punked]

For example, Kinder Morgan has eight subsidaries in the states alone, most based in Houston. Now don't you think that if corprate taxes went up or a carbon tax was brought in, that Kinder Morgan Canada would all of a sudden stop showing profits?

As for the 0% rate, if that was brought in, we'd still recieve revenue from the Canadian shareholders and the workers in the form of income tax. Perhaps, a 0% rate might also encourage them to move some of their subsidaries's offices from Texas (already buisness freindly) into Canada? (And with them their wealthy shareholders)

I still have no idea what you are talking about? I think that Kinder Morgan will operate as long as they make a profit and what we tax is profit. So if they stopped showing a profit they would stop being taxed.

[punked]

My point is your argument is BS. On cannot assume that wealthy people will simple put up with high taxes because they earn their money from resources. They will move.

Nope they wont move. There was a study done on this in the states here it is.

http://blogs.wsj.com/wealth/2011/04/20/millionaire-tax-didnt-chase-the-rich-from-new-jersey-study-says/

[RNG]

Their head offices would be the US anyway. That is where the people live. If you say is true they would have their head offices in Bermuda where you pay no income tax.

Interestingly enough, an aquaintence of mine, (note I didn't say friend) did exactly that. There was some tax deal I don't understand where if he lived in Bermuda for two years and a day he escaped a whole bunch of Canadian tax. He was the major owner of a company that was sold for multi-millions of dollars. So he did it, and saved a big bunch of money, but hated it. Basically he admitted to me that he lost two years of his life. Bermuda is a small island. He analogized it to being in a luxurious prison.

[punked]

Interestingly enough, an aquaintence of mine, (note I didn't say friend) did exactly that. There was some tax deal I don't understand where if he lived in Bermuda for two years and a day he escaped a whole bunch of Canadian tax. He was the major owner of a company that was sold for multi-millions of dollars. So he did it, and saved a big bunch of money, but hated it. Basically he admitted to me that he lost two years of his life. Bermuda is a small island. He analogized it to being in a luxurious prison.

Sounds horrible but if someone is going to go such lengths as that I really don't see how we keep them outside of telling everyone they don't need to pay taxes anymore.

[Guest Derek L]

I still have no idea what you are talking about? I think that Kinder Morgan will operate as long as they make a profit and what we tax is profit. So if they stopped showing a profit they would stop being taxed.

Sure, they will always operate, but with "creative accounting", a money making sector can show a loss. If Taxes were raised in Canada, their profitable sectors in Canada would show a loss of revenue.

[punked]

Sure, they will always operate, but with "creative accounting", a money making sector can show a loss. If Taxes were raised in Canada, their profitable sectors in Canada would show a loss of revenue.

Yes I agree if we raise Taxes a small chunk of revenue will be lost. This means their is a proper balance of Taxes to revenue what we are arguing about is you think Corporate taxes should less ie 12-16& and I think they should be a little more 18-21%. That is all.

[blueblood]

Yes I agree if we raise Taxes a small chunk of revenue will be lost. This means their is a proper balance of Taxes to revenue what we are arguing about is you think Corporate taxes should less ie 12-16& and I think they should be a little more 18-21%. That is all.

Its been shown though that dropping corporate taxes is a good thing. In canada it would be really good as far as attracting foreign capital to develop our resources. The income taxes from employees and the shareholders from t.o. Would make up for it, not to mention the growth.

We are enjoying the benefits of being the most competitive tax rates in the g8. It would be unwise to give other countries a competitive advantage.