Mike Harris did nothing wrong.

[Melanie_]

You're a girl melanie.  Do you think it is normal for a supposed first world country to legalize pedophilia?  The conservative government did this in 1988, that is my proof.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't see my gender as being relevent here, nor am I advocating legalizing pedophilia. My beef with your post was that you are making some wildly speculative statements based on twisted reasoning, purely to be inflammatory.

Now back to my original strategy - Don't Feed The Troll.

[mockingbird]

You don't even know what a paedophile is, let alone how to spell it.

Miss Meriam Webster disagrees.

One entry found for pedophile.

Main Entry: pe·do·phile

Pronunciation: 'pE-d&-"fIl

Function: noun

: one affected with pedophilia

I see you're still stuck with old dictionaries out in the boonies where you insist on spelling it "Encyclopaedia"

Congratulations. You just made a complete fool of yourself.

[Greg]

Goodbye mockingbird, you are now banned from these forums.

[dribgnikcom2]

I don't see my gender as being relevent here, nor am I advocating legalizing pedophilia. My beef with your post was that you are making some wildly speculative statements based on twisted reasoning, purely to be inflammatory.

Now back to my original strategy - Don't Feed The Troll.

I presented very clear evidence that the pc party legalized pedophilia.

Back to harris who cheated on his wife while in office, oppressed the poor while dining in fancy restaurants, who was trying to convert Toronto to New York city. Apparently this also included imitating their mayor Juliani with his infidelity.

Goodbye mockingbird, you are now banned from these forums.

Hello Greg. I am now on these forums.

More evidence needed?

[Greg]

dribgnikcom2, you're now banned again.

[PocketRocket]

Amazing how a member-ban can bring a once-burgeoning thread to a sudden-screeching halt

[szkw1]

I have read through all 21 pages of this tread and have yet to read anything that convinced me that "Uncle Mikey" did what he had to. He demolished the nursing profession, cut funding to hospitals, tried to skrew teachers, removed the social safety net and created a huge deficit.

Every time I have to wait longer than 6 weeks to see a specialist I thank "Uncle Mike" for his "right" thinking. Every time I am denied long term disability because I am unable to work I thank "Uncle Mikey." I have nothing but contempt for the man.

I will never forget his reaction when it was pointed out that his father played a part in the defrauding of the Dionne quints of some of their money. He whined that it was unfair to put pressure on a man who was sick with cancer blah, blah, blah. He did exactly the same thing to many people in this province. Funny how things change when the shoe is on the other foot.

[BHS]

I have read through all 21 pages of this tread and have yet to read anything that convinced me that "Uncle Mikey" did what he had to.  He demolished the nursing profession, cut funding to hospitals, tried to skrew teachers, removed the social safety net and created a huge deficit. 

Every time I have to wait longer than 6 weeks to see a specialist I thank "Uncle Mike" for his "right" thinking. Every time I am denied long term disability because I am unable to work I thank "Uncle Mikey."  I have nothing but contempt for the man. 

I will never forget his reaction when it was pointed out that his father played a part in the defrauding of the Dionne quints of some of their money.  He whined  that it was unfair to put pressure on a man who was sick with cancer blah, blah, blah.  He did exactly the same thing to many people in this province.  Funny how things change when the shoe is on the other foot.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And every time I read someone blame Mike Harris for long waits in public healthcare I thank them for demonstrating the blissful ignorance of youth. Assuming you are in fact young, and not the victim of some sort of brain damage affecting long term memory. If which is the case, my condolences.

Last I checked, the social safety net is still there. Not exactly luxury accomodations for layabout drug addicts, to be sure, but then it was never intended to be luxurious.

I don't understand the comparison make in your last paragraph at all. Pointing out someone's flawed past as they lay dying is akin to speaking ill of the dead. What this has to do with healthcare policy is beyond me.

[err]

I have read through all 21 pages of this tread and have yet to read anything that convinced me that "Uncle Mikey" did what he had to.  He demolished the nursing profession, cut funding to hospitals, tried to skrew teachers, removed the social safety net and created a huge deficit. 

Every time I have to wait longer than 6 weeks to see a specialist I thank "Uncle Mike" for his "right" thinking. Every time I am denied long term disability because I am unable to work I thank "Uncle Mikey."   I have nothing but contempt for the man. 

And every time I read someone blame Mike Harris for long waits in public healthcare I thank them for demonstrating the blissful ignorance of youth. Assuming you are in fact young, and not the victim of some sort of brain damage affecting long term memory. If which is the case, my condolences.

I think you've got a real bad case of the blissful ignorance that you speak of. While I can't be sure of the "blissful" part, I can be sure of a severe dose of the "ignorance" part.

The laying off of thousands of nurses, closing down how many hospitals, didn't that affect health care or waiting lists.... and then when Harris wanted to get re-elected, he actually boasted about spending more money than any previous government on health care... because he gave party-friendly construction firms huge contracts to tear down hospitals and build new wings onto them....

Our health-care dollars were going to patronage construction contracts....

and we ended up with less doctors, nurses, and real health care...

[Guest eureka]

Gray's reference to the blissful ignorance of youth is not an assertion of ignrance in general. It is that youth is ignorant of the vicissitudes that they will face in the future.

"No thought have they of ills to come;

No cares beyond today."

He also calls the children "little victims."

And that is what it is all about and worse for those hurt by Harris since Gray was talking of the Upper Classes.

[szkw1]

And every time I read someone blame Mike Harris for long waits in public healthcare I thank them for demonstrating the blissful ignorance of youth. Assuming you are in fact young, and not the victim of some sort of brain damage affecting long term memory. If which is the case, my condolences.

Last I checked, the social safety net is still there. Not exactly luxury accomodations for layabout drug addicts, to be sure, but then it was never intended to be luxurious.

I don't understand the comparison make in your last paragraph at all. Pointing out someone's flawed past as they lay dying is akin to speaking ill of the dead. What this has to do with healthcare policy is beyond me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

#1. I am not blisfully ignorant or young or brain damaged thank you very much.

#2. I work at a local lunch programme with those so called lay abouts and drug addicts. I suggest you donate some of your time and work in one of those places for a month or so and you will see that the safety net has eroded. leaving many people at risk. Many of the people we have as clients are incapable of working at even the most menial jobs. You forgot to include those with mental and physical afflictions. Also those who are single parents who can't afford daycare for their children as there are too few places for them.

The safety net, often doesn't cover basic monthly expenses. Some of our clients spend over 90% of their income on housing which leaves VERY little for necessities. Example, one woman pays $450.00 in rent which leaves her less than $100.00 for her other expenses. Last time I checked there is no way that you can survive on that little and have any quality of life. There are very few geared to income dwellings so those who are childless are stuck finding accomodation on the free market.

With winter coming I am doing my usual scrambling to get donations of used warm clothing for our clients.

#3 The reference to Mikey's father shows the irony of the situation. He didn't want his father to have to put up with pressure when he was ill unlike the ordinary dying patients in this province. As said so eliquently by a former poster, when Mikey cut funding for hospitals the nursing staff suffered from massive cuts. Those who are still working as nurses spend a lot of their time with paper work and not enough time doing that for which they were really trained.

When sophisticated and expensive diagnostic equipment enters the market many hospitals can't afford to purchase it or enough of it so waiting lists grow longer. This is not the time to cut hospital budgets.

I could go on but I'm sure you will come back with some rhetoric that will blame the victim as opposed to the perpitrator.

[err]

And every time I read someone blame Mike Harris for long waits in public healthcare I thank them for demonstrating the blissful ignorance of youth.

...............

Many of the people we have as clients are incapable of working at even the most menial jobs. You forgot to include those with mental and physical afflictions. Also those who are single parents who can't afford daycare for their children as there are too few places for them.

The safety net, often doesn't cover basic monthly expenses. Some of our clients spend over 90% of their income on housing which leaves VERY little for necessities. Example, one woman pays $450.00 in rent which leaves her less than $100.00 for her other expenses. Last time I checked there is no way that you can survive on that little and have any quality of life. There are very few geared to income dwellings so those who are childless are stuck finding accomodation on the free market.

With winter coming I am doing my usual scrambling to get donations of used warm clothing for our clients.

.............

.................

I could go on but I'm sure you will come back with some rhetoric that will blame the victim as opposed to the perpitrator.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

An excellent post from someone who works on the front lines.... and knows what reality is for a large segment of our population......

[Renegade]

I have read through all 21 pages of this tread and have yet to read anything that convinced me that "Uncle Mikey" did what he had to.  He demolished the nursing profession, cut funding to hospitals, tried to skrew teachers, removed the social safety net and created a huge deficit. 

If you start out with a presumption that social services are an obligation to which the poor are "entitled", then you will never be convinced of the merit of Mike Harris' actions. Social services are not a "right" of the people to be funded at any cost. The province (indirectly) employs both nurses and teachers, and ultimately has the right to choose how many of each it employs.

Every time I have to wait longer than 6 weeks to see a specialist I thank "Uncle Mike" for his "right" thinking. Every time I am denied long term disability because I am unable to work I thank "Uncle Mikey."  I have nothing but contempt for the man. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If private health care were an option, you would have the choice of not waiting (and of course paying for that privlige). Simply put, you are expecting the taxpayer to fund "premium" healthcare, at a time when healthcare costs are already being driven up due to more expensive technology choices and an aging population.

[Renegade]

#2. I work at a local lunch programme with those so called lay abouts and drug addicts.  I suggest you donate some of your time and work in one of those places for a month or so and you will see that the safety net has eroded. leaving many people at risk.  Many of the people we have as clients are incapable of working at even the most menial jobs.  You forgot to include those with mental and physical afflictions.  Also those who are single parents who can't afford daycare for their children as there are too few places for them. 

The safety net, often doesn't cover basic monthly expenses.  Some of our clients spend over 90% of their income on housing which leaves VERY little for necessities.  Example, one woman pays $450.00 in rent which leaves her less than $100.00 for her other expenses.  Last time I checked there is no way that you can survive on that little and have any quality of life. There are very few geared to income dwellings so those who are childless are stuck finding accomodation on the free market.

With winter coming I am doing my usual scrambling to get donations of used warm clothing for our clients. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Anyone who is expecting the state to be a nanny which will accomodate all their needs is bound to be disappointed. The reality is the programs like welfare are a result of the generosity of the taxpayer. The woman in your example should be grateful for the $550 she gets but hasn't earned herself, instead she is probably bitter that she doesn't get more.

[Guest eureka]

The province does not have the right to decide how many teachers or nurses it will employ. The province is the government for the people to do the people's will.

The people have decided that they want a medical system and an education system. It is the province's obligation to maintain that system as a wise steward. That means adequate staffing.

Government has no rights whatever.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear szkw1,

#2. I work at a local lunch programme with those so called lay abouts and drug addicts. I suggest you donate some of your time and work in one of those places for a month or so and you will see that the safety net has eroded. leaving many people at risk.

I work beside the Calgary Drop In & Rehab Centre and I can tell you that these people are mostly drug-addicted (hard drugs, I mean, as well as alcohol) violent criminals with absolutely no regard for the well-being of others, no morals whatsoever and no incentive to do anything else but collect the free lunches, free beds and free money in the form of 'social assistance'. The reason most of them are on the streets is because they had these same 'qualities' all their lives, and are only there because they have been shunned from everywhere else.

Granted, some few have legitimate medical conditions that 'disable' them, but these are some 2-5% (as far as I see everyday for the past 6 years), but the majority of them actually like living like, and with the morality of, animals. These are the ones that bleed the 'social safety net' dry, and those 5-10%ers that actually need assistance suffer for it. The system needs a total overhaul, throwing cheques at the problem doesn't really help in the long term.

As to ending the cycle that causes these people who actually can work but have become 'downtrodden' because of their upbringing, I can only suggest a crackdown on this generation to help the next.

[err]

Every time I have to wait longer than 6 weeks to see a specialist I thank "Uncle Mike" for his "right" thinking. Every time I am denied long term disability because I am unable to work I thank "Uncle Mikey."   I have nothing but contempt for the man. 

Dear szkw1. Have you ever stopped to think that maybe Renegade has a point. Maybe the 12 thousand nurses he laid off didn't affect wait times at all... You must be a real loony lefty if you think that those 14 hospitals he closed in Toronto affected waiting times in any way. Next thing you'll be saying is that the billions that Harris cut from health care funding affected it in a whole bunch of other ways.... but probably don't have any internet links to prove it.....

After seeing the public reaction to the drastic cuts to health care, Mike Harris became a changed man.... He actually increased spending on health care in Ontario to what he boasted was "more than any previous government". But he didn't spend it wastefully on overpaid doctors, lazy nurses, and overpriced health care equipment. He spent our money wisely on building contracts... building wings onto hospitals, tearing down wings of hospitals, but it's all "health care" isn't it.

And best of all, these contracts were great for repaying loyal Ontario construction firms, loyal to the Conservative Party.... You really know what you're getting when you vote Conservative .....

If private health care were an option, you would have the choice of not waiting (and of course paying for that privlige).  Simply put, you are expecting the taxpayer to fund "premium" healthcare, at a time when healthcare costs are already being driven up due to more expensive technology choices and an aging population.

and of course the new buildings and wings on the hospitals....

[tml12]

Dear szkw1,

#2. I work at a local lunch programme with those so called lay abouts and drug addicts. I suggest you donate some of your time and work in one of those places for a month or so and you will see that the safety net has eroded. leaving many people at risk.

I work beside the Calgary Drop In & Rehab Centre and I can tell you that these people are mostly drug-addicted (hard drugs, I mean, as well as alcohol) violent criminals with absolutely no regard for the well-being of others, no morals whatsoever and no incentive to do anything else but collect the free lunches, free beds and free money in the form of 'social assistance'. The reason most of them are on the streets is because they had these same 'qualities' all their lives, and are only there because they have been shunned from everywhere else.

Granted, some few have legitimate medical conditions that 'disable' them, but these are some 2-5% (as far as I see everyday for the past 6 years), but the majority of them actually like living like, and with the morality of, animals. These are the ones that bleed the 'social safety net' dry, and those 5-10%ers that actually need assistance suffer for it. The system needs a total overhaul, throwing cheques at the problem doesn't really help in the long term.

As to ending the cycle that causes these people who actually can work but have become 'downtrodden' because of their upbringing, I can only suggest a crackdown on this generation to help the next.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I remember being in San Francisco a few years back. They had this program where they gave out $500 cheques if you could prove your homeless. I met a few heroin addicts who loved that program. However, there was an opposition "Care, Not Cash" program which called for giving care instead of case to these people.

Seems to be to be a braindead issue but I guess the left-wing thinks not...

[szkw1]

Dear szkw1.  Have you ever stopped to think that maybe Renegade has a point.  Maybe the 12 thousand nurses he laid off didn't affect wait times at all... You must be a real loony lefty if you think that those 14 hospitals he closed in Toronto affected waiting times in any way.  Next thing you'll be saying is that the billions that Harris cut from health care funding affected it in a whole bunch of other ways.... but probably don't have any internet links to prove it.....

After seeing the public reaction to the drastic cuts to health care, Mike Harris became a changed man.... He actually increased spending on health care in Ontario to what he boasted was "more than any previous government".  But he didn't spend it wastefully on overpaid doctors, lazy nurses, and overpriced health care equipment.  He spent our money wisely on building contracts... building wings onto hospitals,  tearing down wings of hospitals, but it's all "health care" isn't it. 

And best of all, these contracts were great for repaying loyal Ontario construction firms, loyal to the Conservative Party.... You really know what you're getting when you vote Conservative .....

How could I be so stupid? I forgot about the lazy and overpaid people who work in hospitals. They are as bad as all of those lay abouts that expect the government to look after them.

[BHS]

And every time I read someone blame Mike Harris for long waits in public healthcare I thank them for demonstrating the blissful ignorance of youth. Assuming you are in fact young, and not the victim of some sort of brain damage affecting long term memory. If which is the case, my condolences.

Last I checked, the social safety net is still there. Not exactly luxury accomodations for layabout drug addicts, to be sure, but then it was never intended to be luxurious.

I don't understand the comparison make in your last paragraph at all. Pointing out someone's flawed past as they lay dying is akin to speaking ill of the dead. What this has to do with healthcare policy is beyond me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

#1. I am not blisfully ignorant or young or brain damaged thank you very much.

#2. I work at a local lunch programme with those so called lay abouts and drug addicts. I suggest you donate some of your time and work in one of those places for a month or so and you will see that the safety net has eroded. leaving many people at risk. Many of the people we have as clients are incapable of working at even the most menial jobs. You forgot to include those with mental and physical afflictions. Also those who are single parents who can't afford daycare for their children as there are too few places for them.

The safety net, often doesn't cover basic monthly expenses. Some of our clients spend over 90% of their income on housing which leaves VERY little for necessities. Example, one woman pays $450.00 in rent which leaves her less than $100.00 for her other expenses. Last time I checked there is no way that you can survive on that little and have any quality of life. There are very few geared to income dwellings so those who are childless are stuck finding accomodation on the free market.

With winter coming I am doing my usual scrambling to get donations of used warm clothing for our clients.

#3 The reference to Mikey's father shows the irony of the situation. He didn't want his father to have to put up with pressure when he was ill unlike the ordinary dying patients in this province. As said so eliquently by a former poster, when Mikey cut funding for hospitals the nursing staff suffered from massive cuts. Those who are still working as nurses spend a lot of their time with paper work and not enough time doing that for which they were really trained.

When sophisticated and expensive diagnostic equipment enters the market many hospitals can't afford to purchase it or enough of it so waiting lists grow longer. This is not the time to cut hospital budgets.

I could go on but I'm sure you will come back with some rhetoric that will blame the victim as opposed to the perpitrator.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

1) My apologies, then. But did long waits for healthcare in Ontario only start after 1995? Seems to me the issue predates Mike Harris.

2) Are there not additional programs to deal with people with mental and physical afflictions? My own uncle is a diagnosed schizophrenic living on a government stipend (in Ontario) and it's substantially more than basic welfare. Based on my own empirical knowledge I wouldn't have included people in those categories with basic welfare cases.

I'm genuinely sorry that some people, who do not suffer from a diagnosed illness, nonetheless go through life with such underdeveloped lifeskills that they can't hold down a job. I'm sure that a meager income is only one of the problems they have to deal with. I wish there were an easy answer, but I'm convinced that making welfare more attractive to able-bodied individuals will make the situation better.

I participated in a different thread on this board some time ago where I defended the welfare system, within a proposed system of parameters. If you'd like I'll dig it up and post a link here.

3) If Mike Harris' father lay dying in a public hospital, it stands to reason that he did indeed suffer the same difficulties as every other dying patient. All things being even, it seems to me that you're suggesting every dying man should be harrassed over whatever misdeeds he committed during his life.

My mother-in-law is a registered nurse. I know people who've had difficult hospital stays. I've heard about the trouble hospitals have budgeting for new equipment. All that I know about medical care leads me to believe that things can only be made better by taking stress off of the public system by allowing private individuals to choose private healthcare, if they can afford it.

[Renegade]

The province does not have the right to decide how many teachers or nurses it will employ. The province is the government for the people to do the people's will.

It absolutely can decide how many teachers, nurses, doctors, or level of provinicial services it should provide. You are correct when you say that it should do the people's will. Mike Harris' government ran on a platform of tax cuts, and the people demonstrated that was their will by electing him (TWICE!). When people choose tax cuts, it is necessary and reasonable that the level of services provided wiill be reduced. As one who voted for Mike Harris, I'm fine with the trade-off.

The people have decided that they want a medical system and an education system. It is the province's obligation to maintain that system as a wise steward. That means adequate staffing.

Exactly how have the "people have decided that they want a medical system and an education system"? The people make their decisions via their vote evey election. No choice is static. When a people elect a government to cut taxes, they expect them to do so.

Government has no rights whatever.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Agreed. But they have an obligation to respect the wishes of the population which elected them.

[Renegade]

How could I be so stupid?  I forgot about the lazy and overpaid people who work in hospitals.  They are as bad as all of those lay abouts that expect the government to look after them. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Gee, I wonder who inferred that the people who work in hospitals were "lazy and overpaid"?

Being smart, hardworking or underpaid does not insure you against being laid-off in the private industry and there is no reason why the same shouldn't hold true for public workers.

The injustice for healthcare workers is not that they get laid-off, but rather the government unilateraly imposes a renumeration system on them, and then also eliminates competitive employers by precluding private healthcare.

If you really care about the best interest of healthcare workers, you should be an advocate for private healthcare as wages are sure to rise when multiple employers bid for the same resource pool.

[Guest eureka]

Government does not have the right or authority to arbitrarily cut service levels. To my mind, it is an impeachable offense and it would have been interesting to see someone pursue that route with Harris.

Government is obligated (more or less) to cut taxes if that was its winning plank but not at the expense of services that it has equally pledged to uphold. That is what its employment levels were about. Only if it can demonstrate that there would be no deterioration of service does it have the authority as employer to reduce staffing levels.

That was patently impossible since reductions in either could only produce unfavourable results.

[Renegade]

Government does not have the right or authority to arbitrarily cut service levels. To my mind, it is an impeachable offense and it would have been interesting to see someone pursue that route with Harris.

Government is obligated (more or less) to cut taxes if that was its winning plank but not at the expense of services that it has equally pledged to uphold. That is what its employment levels were about. Only if it can demonstrate that there would be no deterioration of service does it have the authority as employer to reduce staffing levels.

That was patently impossible since reductions in either could only produce unfavourable results.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

eureka, I understand that it is your opinion but I and many others disagree. Where is it written that government is obligated to maintain services? Is it in the Charter of Rights? The BNA act? where?

In the absence of any explicit documented obligation, no such obligation exists.

[Duke]

You are absolutely right Renagade. The only obligation an elected government has is to get relected.Harris the exception in that he laid out his plan in the Common Sense Revolution and then implemented it once elected.Not like the Fiberals who promise anything to win and then deliver something else.