Prime Minister Rae

[William Ashley]

Tories win a majority.

PM of what country Britain - after 5 years of tory rule there will be no Canada.

God forbid it actually happen.

Edited April 15, 2011 by William Ashley

[Bob]

It's a sad reflection on the Liberal party that Bob Rae seems to be the frontrunner to replace Iggy.

If Rae wins the leadership he'll probably be another lame loser like Dion and Iggy. I doubt Ontario would want to vote for the guy, unless they have short memories.

What happened to the federal Liberal party? Where are some half-decent leaders among them? Just wow.

I think Bob Rae is as strong of a candidate as Ignatieff. They both have what I would consider fatal flaws, though. Both of them lack integrity, respect for their opponents, and vision - all based on deep partisanship and being slaves to the worst parts of their base. Perhaps they underestimate themselves and their own constituencies, and have such a deep fear of ever saying something that might be misinterpreted by their supporters as giving even marginal support to the Conservatives. They're both terrified to go outside party/ideological lines.

From a personal perspective, I greatly dislike both of them because I greatly dislike traditional Liberal Party political positions, which both Ignatieff and Rae seem to almost exclusively advocate for.

[Smallc]

That is complete horseshit. Abdicating your obligations and leaving the bills unpaid so you can pretend you have a surplus is not fiscal prudence.

That's nice revisionism, but it isn't in any way true. There was no fake surplus. It was quite real. The Liberals shrank government, cut taxes, and balanced the books. That's far more than Harper could ever hope to do.

Edited April 15, 2011 by Smallc

[punked]

That's nice revisionism, but it isn't in any way true. There was no fake surplus. It was quite real. The Liberals shrank government, cut taxes, and balanced the books. That's far more than Harper could ever hope to do.

Again I don't remember this shrinking of government. I remember increased government revenue from the GST, and the dipping into the EI and Pension funds. I don't remember the shrinking of government so please help me out.

[Smallc]

Again I don't remember this shrinking of government.

They cut spending by over 10%, and cut the civil service by tens of thousands of people.

[Bryan]

What they did was leave billions of dollars obligations to things like health care, education, infrastructure, and the military unpaid, and left the next government with the bill. That's not fiscal management, it's gross negligence.

[blueblood]

That's nice revisionism, but it isn't in any way true. There was no fake surplus. It was quite real. The Liberals shrank government, cut taxes, and balanced the books. That's far more than Harper could ever hope to do.

Except that harper is going to do it in less time, with a bigger deficit, and cutting taxes while doing it. Plus he knocked off two points off the gst before hand which hurts with revenue raising. Harper pulls this off, tax and spend as a philosophy is in serious trouble.

Martin had high taxes to help slay the deficit and cut taxes after. Martin also had the help of the bond vigilantes. All was good until martin wanted to expand govt in 2006 with his spending spree ambitions.

[Smallc]

Except that harper is going to do it in less time, with a bigger deficit, and cutting taxes while doing it.

No he isn't. The Liberal did it in two years, with a bigger deficit in terms of GDP.

Plus he knocked off two points off the gst before hand which hurts with revenue raising.

Which is why it was so stupid. Income taxes were raised temporarily to pay for that, BTW.

Martin had high taxes to help slay the deficit and cut taxes after.

Do you know how many times Martin cut taxes after the budget was balanced? He cut income taxes, indexed the tax brackets to inflation, and cut corporate taxes by more than anyone in history.

[Smallc]

What they did was leave billions of dollars obligations to things like health care, education, infrastructure

Those are provincial jurisdiction. The federal government simply helps with funding because of some agreements. They didn't leave things unpaid for, they slashed them, which is something that real conservatives should be supportive of.

and the military unpaid, and left the next government with the bill.

Except that Martin restored spending to all the things you're talking about (most of the current military budget comes from him, not Harper).

That's not fiscal management, it's gross negligence.

Oh please. That's why Canada's credit rating remained the best in the world?

[Bob]

I'd give it even odds.

I sure hope not. I really don't want to think about Ignatieff at the helm with that coalition.

[blueblood]

No he isn't. The Liberal did it in two years, with a bigger deficit in terms of GDP.

Which is why it was so stupid. Income taxes were raised temporarily to pay for that, BTW.

Do you know how many times Martin cut taxes after the budget was balanced? He cut income taxes, indexed the tax brackets to inflation, and cut corporate taxes by more than anyone in history.

Martin balanced the books in 97 (4 yrs). Harper plans to do it in 3 yrs.

The gst cut was a tax cut for everyone. Not necessarily stupid because at some point everyone spends money. (Income tax cuts work if you save money)

My point remains is that harper is slaying the deficit while cutting taxes and in having a big tax cut prior to doing so. Martin had to wait until after the books were balanced, and it was good that martin did so.

My argument is that if harper slays the larger deficit (according to ignatieff) while slashing taxes and in less time, martins crown as financial guru is now up for debate with harper.

[ToadBrother]

Martin balanced the books in 97 (4 yrs). Harper plans to do it in 3 yrs.

The gst cut was a tax cut for everyone. Not necessarily stupid because at some point everyone spends money. (Income tax cuts work if you save money)

My point remains is that harper is slaying the deficit while cutting taxes and in having a big tax cut prior to doing so. Martin had to wait until after the books were balanced, and it was good that martin did so.

My argument is that if harper slays the larger deficit (according to ignatieff) while slashing taxes and in less time, martins crown as financial guru is now up for debate with harper.

And if pigs fly, we'll have bacon with wings.

[kimmy]

Those are provincial jurisdiction. The federal government simply helps with funding because of some agreements. They didn't leave things unpaid for, they slashed them, which is something that real conservatives should be supportive of.

Well, they slashed transfer payments to the provinces, and left the provinces to make the cuts themselves. They solved the debt by offloading the painful part of it to the provinces.

Except that Martin restored spending to all the things you're talking about (most of the current military budget comes from him, not Harper).

That's highly debatable. Per-student spending on public schools is lower now than it was before Martin slew the deficit. The real-dollar cost of attending university is several times what it was before Martin slew the deficit.

Not that it's Martin's fault, of course. The drunken spending of prior generations was unsustainable, and Martin did what had to be done.

Of course, those of us who came along a few years too late to benefit from lavish government spending on education still get to pitch in through our tax money to pay for lavish new spending on the proposed senior care programs that are going to be all the rage. Yay!

-k

[Bonam]

That's highly debatable. Per-student spending on public schools is lower now than it was before Martin slew the deficit. The real-dollar cost of attending university is several times what it was before Martin slew the deficit.

...

Of course, those of us who came along a few years too late to benefit from lavish government spending on education still get to pitch in through our tax money to pay for lavish new spending on the proposed senior care programs that are going to be all the rage. Yay!

I know exactly what you mean. Tuition at UBC went up at least 50% every year while I was in school. When I graduated, tuition was at least triple what it had been when I started. Was nuts.

[cybercoma]

Of course, those of us who came along a few years too late to benefit from lavish government spending on education still get to pitch in through our tax money to pay for lavish new spending on the proposed senior care programs that are going to be all the rage. Yay!

-k

Really pisses you off being the lost generation, eh? Our parents/grandparents have leeched us dry.

[lukin]

Except the Tories won't win a majority, Iggy will gain some seats, will gang up with the Bloc and NDP and topple the Tories over the Throne Speech and Iggy will be PM.

I made a mistake. In my original post, I meant to say minority.

[Smallc]

Martin balanced the books in 97 (4 yrs). Harper plans to do it in 3 yrs.

They didn't start until two years in.

My argument is that if harper slays the larger deficit (according to ignatieff) while slashing taxes and in less time, martins crown as financial guru is now up for debate with harper.

I'll still give it to Martin. That doesn't mean Harper is terrible.

[Smallc]

Well, they slashed transfer payments to the provinces, and left the provinces to make the cuts themselves. They solved the debt by offloading the painful part of it to the provinces.

That isn't really fair, since they also cut operating spending for many departments big time. The reality is, when you cut, you have to cut. Conservatives always say they want that...I guess it's only in principle.

[maldon_road]

There is a real possibility that Iggy will get the boot unless the Libs gain a significant number of new seats, which is not likely. Bob Rae? Controversial figure. Few will remember how divisive he was as Ontario premier as I do - I still have scars over the Bill 40 wars to prove it. But you can be sure the Tories and NDP will let the public know.

The presumptive leader in waiting is Justin Trudeau, a man with a shadow of his father's intellect and someone who cannot point to any achievements in his term as an MP. Of course he is young - maybe the plan is to let Rae fail as Dion and Iggy have done and then crown Trudeau.

[Evening Star]

There is a real possibility that Iggy will get the boot unless the Libs gain a significant number of new seats, which is not likely.

I think TB's prediction is quite possible.

Bob Rae? Controversial figure. Few will remember how divisive he was as Ontario premier as I do - I still have scars over the Bill 40 wars to prove it. But you can be sure the Tories and NDP will let the public know.

I always wonder how much of a role this will play. By the time of the next election, we will have first-time voters who were born after Rae's term as premier ended.

The presumptive leader in waiting is Justin Trudeau, a man with a shadow of his father's intellect and someone who cannot point to any achievements in his term as an MP. Of course he is young - maybe the plan is to let Rae fail as Dion and Iggy have done and then crown Trudeau.

Leblanc or perhaps Kennedy would be much stronger choices (for the reasons you give).

[maldon_road]

I always wonder how much of a role this will play. By the time of the next election, we will have first-time voters who were born after Rae's term as premier ended.

Leblanc or perhaps Kennedy would be much stronger choices (for the reasons you give).

Politicians' sins always seem to have a habit of coming back to haunt them.

Kennedy would be okay. Leblanc's a lightweight. And of course there is Martha Hall Findlay

[Evening Star]

Well, what were Rae's sins? A deficit? He governed during a devastating nationwide recession. The social contract? That was probably one of the fairest ways any leader could have made cuts without excessively hurting too many public employees. Plus, it actually worked OK and made Mike Harris's job a little easier. And he had some accomplishments too: rent control, anti-scab legislation, educational reforms, Jobs Ontario.

He probably was relatively ineffectual though, which doesn't really make him seem that inspiring as a choice for PM. Who knows though?

Edited April 15, 2011 by Evening Star

[TimG]

And he had some accomplishments too: rent control, anti-scab legislation, educational reforms, Jobs Ontario.

I don't know what 'educational reforms' he brought in but the others are definately failures - not accomplishments .

[Evening Star]

Most of the major changes in ON's educational system since that time were first planned/proposed during Rae's term: elimination of Gr 13, the common curriculum, standardized testing, per-pupil funding. And rent control and anti-scab legislation don't seem like failures to everyone.

Edited April 15, 2011 by Evening Star

[TimG]

And rent control and anti-scab legislation don't seem like failures to everyone.

A minority of people may feel that way but to most others they are more examples of why Rae was a disaster for Ontario.