Will the Harper Government Survive This Week?

[g_bambino]

Bambino, you believe in... God-given power.

Wrong and irrelevant. You're off to a good start!

I disagree. Harper/Layton/Duceppe sent the letter to Clarkson because they feared what Clarkson/Martin would do faced with a defeat in parliament.

They feared that she might not consider them as able to form a coalition cabinet, yes. They made it clear to her that it was an option. That's my point.

[ToadBrother]

The "anger" in December 2008 pushed Conservative polling numbers above 50%. If one in 20 voters switches from the Liberals to the Conservatives, the Tories will get above 40%.

And as I say, the mere idea of those "really interesting things" makes a Conservative majority a certainty.

You're not exactly batting 100 on the crystal ball front. I prefer not to make grand proclamations, particularly ones that seem more informed by biased partisan viewpoints than by electoral realities.

[August1991]

They feared that she might not consider them as able to form a coalition cabinet, yes. They made it clear to her that it was an option. That's my point.

In Harper's 2004 letter, there was no mention of coalition or cabinet.

In 2004, Harper/Layton/Duceppe merely reminded the GG (a Liberal appointee) that the constitution required her to consider other alternatives. (As it turned out, PM Martin survived the house vote.)

Bambino, our GG and your Queen are part of the political process. They are not God.

You're not exactly batting 100 on the crystal ball front.

On this forum, I predicted that McCain would be president and that Avatar would be a bomb. I wuz wrong.

OTOH, I stick my neck out. And I don't use a crystal ball but maybe my logic deserves attention.

Edited March 25, 2011 by August1991

[Jack Weber]

In Harper's 2004 letter, there was no mention of coalition or cabinet.

In 2004, Harper/Layton/Duceppe merely reminded the GG (a Liberal appointee) that the constitution required her to consider other alternatives. (As it turned out, PM Martin survived the house vote.)

Bambino, our GG and your Queen are part of the political process. They are not God.

What precisely do you think that means..

"...the constitution required her to consider other alternatives."...???

If not a coalition of the CA,Bloc,and the NDP,then what??

[ToadBrother]

Thread drift ahead.

Bambino, you believe in monarchs, and God-given power. I believe that Kings and Queens shit like the rest of us. They put on pants/trousers/thongs one leg at a time.

The "governor general is always well aware of his or her constitutional duties"? WTF? Not in my Canada. Bambino, do you believe that Tsar Nicholas I, for example, was "well aware of his constitutional duties"?

This is utterly irrelevant. No Sovereign or Viceroy has taken upon themselves the unilateral tampering with Parliament's right to choose a government since 1834. The two major invocations of the Reserve Powers of the Realms in the 20th century involved pre-existing crises that forced a GG to invoke their reserve powers. And in neither case did those GG's simply do it on their own, they consulted constitutional experts, just as Madame Jean did in 2008 to review not only her possible choices, but the choices that best reflected tradition and precedent.

The situation of Imperial Russia was entirely different, in that while Russia had the trappings of the Western European Constitutional Monarchies, the Czar was still in practice an absolute monarch. There was no Russian Bill of Rights, 1689, just some very weak constitutional rules that the Romanovs had intentionally undermined to maintain their autocratic powers. The Russian Duma during Nicholas's reign was a weak, ineffectual body, not the Parliaments of the UK and the Dominions, based upon the supremacy of Parliament. The two situations have nothing to do with each other, and I think you know that. So why you would bring up Nicholas II is quite beyond me. No British King since James II had insisted that he had the Czar's powers, and James II was given his walking papers.

Edited March 25, 2011 by ToadBrother

[g_bambino]

In Harper's 2004 letter, there was no mention of coalition or cabinet.

In 2004, Harper/Layton/Duceppe merely reminded the GG (a Liberal appointee) that the constitution required her to consider other alternatives.

You're simply repeating yourself. My earlier rebuttal therefore still stands.

[ToadBrother]

In Harper's 2004 letter, there was no mention of coalition or cabinet.

In 2004, Harper/Layton/Duceppe merely reminded the GG (a Liberal appointee) that the constitution required her to consider other alternatives. (As it turned out, PM Martin survived the house vote.)

Bambino, our GG and your Queen are part of the political process. They are not God.

They don't need to be God. They have the exclusive right to invoke the Reserve Powers with the strict intention of producing a responsible government. They are informed by constitutional tradition and precedent in making that choice. The GG was well aware that if Martin was defeated she had a number of options, and precedent. The intent of the letter, undersigned by the leaders, was very clear, that an alternative if the Martin government fell was the Opposition parties working under some sort of agreement. What the letter lacked and what the 2008 plan had was the actual formulation of the agreement. Other than that, they were in the same direction.

[August1991]

No Sovereign or Viceroy has taken upon themselves the unilateral tampering with Parliament's right to choose a government since 1834.

The sovereign/viceroy is God!

Toadbrother, what planet do you live on?

Jean Chretien, a Liberal, appointed Adrienne Clarkson, a CBC journalist, to be GG. The DNA of Charles, Elizabeth et al is roughly similar to your DNA or mine. This whole Sovereign Head of State by birth/appointment idea is a fraud.

----

For others, sorry for the thread drift.

Edited March 25, 2011 by August1991

[g_bambino]

The sovereign/viceroy is God!

August has heard of constitutional monarchy. He just chooses to ignore it and live as though it were perpetually 1214.

It's comes in, from time to time, as a good distraction; such as now, when he can't defend the notion that the letter Harper, Duceppe, and Layton sent to the Governor General in 2004 was anything other than a tip off to Clarkson that she could consider, as an alternative to dropping the writs for an election, the three opposition parties as a coalition.

[+]

Edited March 25, 2011 by g_bambino

[ToadBrother]

The sovereign/viceroy is God!

Toadbrother, what planet do you live on?

Jean Chretien, a Liberal, appointed Adrienne Clarkson, a CBC journalist, to be GG. The DNA of Charles, Elizabeth et al is roughly similar to your DNA or mine. This whole Sovereign Head of State by birth/appointment idea is a fraud.

And yet, for all of that, the Glorious Revolution delivered us one of the most successful systems of government in history, in large part because the Sovereign and His or Her viceroys don't have to be constitutional experts (although I'd argue that Elizabeth II is probably by now one of the foremost authorities on the Westminster constitutional system).

[ToadBrother]

August has heard of constitutional monarchy. He just chooses to ignore it and live as though it were perpetually 1214.

Bringing up Nicholas II was just bizarre. I mean, the whole point of the Glorious Revolution was to eliminate the possibility of an absolutist monarch like the Romanovs. I can't think of a less apt analogy.

[August1991]

And yet, for all of that, the Glorious Revolution delivered us one of the most successful systems of government in history, in large part because the Sovereign and His or Her viceroys don't have to be constitutional experts (although I'd argue that Elizabeth II is probably by now one of the foremost authorities on the Westminster constitutional system).

Correlation does not mean causation.

---

TB, the Western world's strength is individual liberty: from the American to the French revolution.

Edited March 25, 2011 by August1991

[ToadBrother]

Correlation does not mean causation.

This was the most absurd response I've ever seen. The Russian Empire had no Bill of Rights, 1689, it had no notion of Parliamentary supremacy. It was tried, particularly after the abortive 1905 revolution, but Nicholas II stomped it out. It's a pity, too, because if the Czars had accepted the reality that they needed to give up their prerogatives to the Duma like William and Mary had done when they accepted Parliament's offer to become joint monarchs in England and Scotland, it's possible that Russia might still be a monarchy.

[August1991]

This was the most absurd response I've ever seen.

Short skirts may coinicide with high stock prices but I wouldn't advise anyone to invest this way or even less, to pay for shorter skirts.

TB, correlation and causation are different.

If secretaries shop at Lululemon, that's correlation. When secretaries shop at Super-C, that's causation.

[SF/PF]

Short skirts may coinicide with high stock prices but I wouldn't advise anyone to invest this way or even less, to pay for shorter skirts.

TB, correlation and causation are different.

If secretaries shop at Lululemon, that's correlation. When secretaries shop at Super-C, that's causation.

Whaaaaaaa....tf?

[g_bambino]

This was the most absurd response I've ever seen.

You'll have to understand that August is absolutely blinded by his love for American/French republican mythology. He can't conceive that anything good ever came from something that didn't have its roots in the bloody end of a monarchy.

[August1991]

He can't conceive that anything good ever came from something that didn't have its roots in the bloody end of a monarchy.

And yet, in 1000 years - in 2114 or so, no civilized society will depend on birth to determine its head of state.

---

If we Westerners are to survive, we will survive based on the strength of our arguments - and not our leader's DNA.

France, America and Quebec understand survival far better than Britain or even China.

Edited March 25, 2011 by August1991

[g_bambino]

And yet, in 1000 years - in 2114 or so, no civilized society will depend on birth to determine its head of state.

You must have that same crystal ball that tells Harper what the outcome of the next election will be.

[Jack Weber]

You must have that same crystal ball that tells Harper what the outcome of the next election will be.

He's the Madame Blavatsky of the board....

[August1991]

He's the Madame Blavatsky of the board....

I had to search that reference. Cute.

You must have that same crystal ball that tells Harper what the outcome of the next election will be.

Bambino, I have no crystal ball but in this case, I would simply correct my math. In 1000 years, our children of grandchildren and grandchildren will live in the year 3114 - not 2114.

And yet, despite my arithmetic, my point reminds.

In 2114 or 3114, what legacy will the West leave? Will medieval methods to decide DNA lineage survive?

Edited March 25, 2011 by August1991

[Jack Weber]

I had to search that reference. Cute.

Cute???

You like 'em fat,ugly,and,wierd...Don't you?

[g_bambino]

In 2114 or 3114, what legacy will the West leave? Will medieval methods to decide DNA lineage survive?

I can't say for sure; who's to know if the human race will even still be around? But, if we are, I'd say it's likely monarchy in some form will still be used. Monarchy, just like republicanism, has been around for thousands of years (Oops! Did you forget there were mediæval republics? America didn't invent the system.); there's nothing to indicate that one, and not the other, won't survive another thousand.

[sp]

Edited March 25, 2011 by g_bambino

[Molly]

Whenever anyone claims the west has no monarchical inclinations, my mind leaps instantly to MacKay I & II; Trudeau I & II; Bush I ⅈ Kennedy I,II, III and for that matter IV counting the governator... and so on... Heck, the US is wa-ayb more inclined to political birthright than we are!

And France the magnificent, with the prancing Sarkozy, so respectful of democratic process and rights of the individual that he expels Rom because they are Rom, and starts wars without telling the minister in charge... Ha! I'm not at all convinced, August. Not a bit.