The end of the empire of Japan

[-1=e^ipi]

Not too funny that the prime minister of Japan visited a war shrine on Christmas.

True, but Mr. Abe went to honor the war dead and to vow to never wage war again, so South Korea and China are overreacting.

It's unfortunate that shrine visits like this drive wedges between Japan and South Korea because they really need to work together to deal with the threat of North Korea, to deal with a growing nationalist China, and to establish their territorial waters (which China strongly disputes).

One of the biggest issues with peace in East Asia is that all the countries strongly distort history and replace it with nationalism when teaching history in schools, to the point of absolute ridiculousness.

Hey look! It's greater korea!

[GostHacked]

So what does this have to do with Fukushima?

[WWWTT]

Not too funny that the prime minister of Japan visited a war shrine on Christmas.

They can't stop talking about this event on CCTV 4!

I guess there's a lot of symbolosim to it.

WWWTT

[WWWTT]

It is worth noting that more Chinese died at the hand of Mao than at the Japanese yet the Chinese think nothing of honouring him and would likely take great offence if outsiders told the Chinese that they should not honour Mao because of the harms he caused.

I would like to see the credible info that you are basing this opinion on!

WWWTT

[TimG]

I would like to see the credible info that you are basing this opinion on!

Here a summary of estimates from a variety of sources:

People's Republic of China, Mao Zedong's regime (1949-1975): 40,000,000 deaths.

If we line up the 14 sources which claim to be complete, the median falls around 39.9 million range, so you probably can't go wrong picking a final number from this neighborhood. Depending on how you want to count some of the incomplete estimates (such as Becker and Meisner) and whether to count a source twice (or thrice, as with Walker) if it's referenced by two different authorities, you can slide the median up and down the scale by many millions.

http://necrometrics.com/20c5m.htm#Mao

Deaths from the Japanese in WW2 max out at 23 million Chinese but if you pick the maximum estimate for the Japanese then you need to pick the maximum for Mao with is closer to 80 million.

http://necrometrics.com/20c5m.htm#Japanese

In either case, the evidence is pretty clear that more Chinese blood is on the hands of Mao than the Japanese Military yet Chinese government officials pay homage to his shrine. Pretty hypocritical wouldn't you say?

Edited December 26, 2013 by TimG

[WWWTT]

Notice, however, that many of those sources are obviously the propoganda arms of enemy governments. Perhaps a better way of estimating would be to add up the individual components. Keep in mind, however, that official Chinese records are hidden from scrutiny, so most of these numbers are only slightly better that pure guesses. It's pointless to get attached to any one of them, because the real number could easily be half or twice any number here.

Taken from your link.

But thanks for providing your propaganda link!

WWWTT

[Rocky Road]

Here a summary of estimates from a variety of sources:

People's Republic of China, Mao Zedong's regime (1949-1975): 40,000,000 deaths.

http://necrometrics.com/20c5m.htm#Mao

Deaths from the Japanese in WW2 max out at 23 million Chinese but if you pick the maximum estimate for the Japanese then you need to pick the maximum for Mao with is closer to 80 million.

http://necrometrics.com/20c5m.htm#Japanese

In either case, the evidence is pretty clear that more Chinese blood is on the hands of Mao than the Japanese Military yet Chinese government officials pay homage to his shrine. Pretty hypocritical wouldn't you say?

Pride is a real instigator eh.

[TimG]

Notice, however, that many of those sources are obviously the propoganda arms of enemy governments.

You must be really desperate to claim a summary of the available historical literature is "propoganda". Why is it so difficult for you to acknowledge that on the balance of evidence the number of Chinese that died because of Mao is larger than the number who died as a result of the Japanese invasion? Is the cognitive dissonance too much for you?

That said all history is written to suit the people writing the history so without examining the biases of every writer is it difficult to know which to take seriously. However, the subjective nature of history simply re-enforces my argument that China and Korea are shameless hypocrites for making fuss about what the Japanese Army did 70 years ago. What matters is what countries are doing today and today China is a bully that is annexing territory of its neighbors.

Edited December 27, 2013 by TimG

[WWWTT]

You must be really desperate to claim a summary of the available historical literature is "propoganda".

I actually pasted a section from the link that you posted that made the claim.

WWWTT

[GostHacked]

Some recent reports are saying cores in 1, 3 and 4 have melted through their containment vessels. We know that #3 was breaching the secondary concrete containment. With all the water flowing downhill this radiation is flowing into the Pacific ocean.

Also something more is going on at Reactor #3 where more steam has been reported coming from it. But people don't know why. They can't even make a guess? I'll guess, the reactor melted all the way through and is now boiling the water flowing under the plant to the ocean.

http://enenews.com/nuclear-expert-fukushima-reactor-cores-melted-down-ground-radioactive-material-being-washed-pacific-ocean-audio

Seems like others agree.

http://www.examiner.com/article/japanese-reactor-3-radioactive-steam-blowout-has-already-hit-u-s-west-coast

Not looking good. Almost three years later. Just gets worse. They have no idea how to fix this. They can't.

[bud]

don't be so negative gosthacked. you're not seeing the positive picture here. for example, all the employment that the meltdown has created and all the homeless people it's helping:

Japan's homeless recruited for murky Fukushima clean-up

(Reuters) - Seiji Sasa hits the train station in this northern Japanese city before dawn most mornings to prowl for homeless men.

He isn't a social worker. He's a recruiter. The men in Sendai Station are potential laborers that Sasa can dispatch to contractors in Japan's nuclear disaster zone for a bounty of $100 a head.

"This is how labor recruiters like me come in every day," Sasa says, as he strides past men sleeping on cardboard and clutching at their coats against the early winter cold.

It's also how Japan finds people willing to accept minimum wage for one of the most undesirable jobs in the industrialized world: working on the $35 billion, taxpayer-funded effort to clean up radioactive fallout across an area of northern Japan larger than Hong Kong.

...

In the October case, homeless men were rounded up at Sendai's train station by Sasa, then put to work clearing radioactive soil and debris in Fukushima City for less than minimum wage, according to police and accounts of those involved. The men reported up through a chain of three other companies to Obayashi, Japan's second-largest construction company.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/12/30/us-fukushima-workers-idUSBRE9BT00520131230

Edited January 3, 2014 by bud

[GostHacked]

Thanks bud. Good link, I'll be passing it around.

[TimG]

Not looking good. Almost three years later. Just gets worse. They have no idea how to fix this. They can't.

A long clean up was expected. These constant squeaks every time you hear news that the cleanup is taking a long time is tedious.

What does not change is the reasons for the Fukushima incident are well understood and newer reactor designs do not have the same issue if power is lost. This incident should been seen a learning exercise in order to learn how to make nuclear plants even safer in the future.

What won't change is our need for power. Eventually the coal will run out and solar/wind will likely never fill the gap. We need safe nuclear power. What we don't need are paranoid ravings.

Edited January 3, 2014 by TimG

[bud]

you should take a look at germany's energy plan and system which is phasing out nuclear power plants and going towards renewable energy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_energy_in_Germany

[GostHacked]

A long clean up was expected. These constant squeaks every time you hear news that the cleanup is taking a long time is tedious.

What does not change is the reasons for the Fukushima incident are well understood and newer reactor designs do not have the same issue if power is lost. This incident should been seen a learning exercise in order to learn how to make nuclear plants even safer in the future.

What won't change is our need for power. Eventually the coal will run out and solar/wind will likely never fill the gap. We need safe nuclear power. What we don't need are paranoid ravings.

Nothing paranoid about containment vessels being breached as well the concrete structure. And no they do not understand how bad this really is. Or they would have asked for international help within DAYS of the catastrophe.

But come on, using homeless people to work at the highly radioactive site? Can't get any volunteers? Wonder why.

[GostHacked]

you should take a look at germany's energy plan and system which is phasing out nuclear power plants and going towards renewable energy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_energy_in_Germany

TEPCO wanted to fire up reactor 5 and 6 at Fukushima-Daiichi because of the demand for electricity. Yeah that's a good idea. Not to mention the other nuke plant that TEPCO runs that is having ongoing issues.

As far as I know Japan has shut down all reactors and are relying on fuel imports to produce electricity. And the ONLY reason we are hearing that they want to fire up the reactors again is to make money.

Money is not going to solve this issue. I can give them a trillion dollars and it won't speed up the process of the clean up/decom at all.

Chernobyl was encased and now a new sarcophagus is being built to stop radiation leaking ...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-25086097

This is over 20 years later and that 'cleaned' site is still highly contaminated. The 'foot' is contained and they know here it is. They have no clue where the molten material has leaked to. You cannot contain or clean up when you cannot even determine where the problem is.

[TimG]

you should take a look at germany's energy plan and system which is phasing out nuclear power plants and going towards renewable energy.

Germany is building brand new coal plants to make up the difference. Renewables cannot provide base load power. All they can do is drive up the cost of power.

[GostHacked]

Germany is building brand new coal plants to make up the difference. Renewables cannot provide base load power. All they can do is drive up the cost of power.

How much would nuclear power cost if it was not heavily subsidized?

[TimG]

Nothing paranoid about containment vessels being breached as well the concrete structure. And no they do not understand how bad this really is. Or they would have asked for international help within DAYS of the catastrophe.

What makes you think "international help" is useful? Japan is rich enough to pay for the clean up itself. It is hiring specialized experts from other countries when necessary. The biggest issue is you can't seem to understand that no one can actually see what is going on inside the reactor so people are forced to guess. When guessing one can take the 'sky-is-falling-the-world-ending' approach that you seem to favor - or one can take a rational approach that adjusts assessments as new information becomes available.

[TimG]

How much would nuclear power cost if it was not heavily subsidized?

Thanks to shale gas nuclear is not viable in NA anymore. In a country like Japan the alternatives are expensive enough to make nuclear viable - at least until they figure out how to exploit those methane hydrates off their coast.

I have no issue with modern coal and gas plants but coal will run out eventually. Plus there is that CO2 issue so nuclear is better from that perspective. My main issue are the lunatics that claim that we can replace coal/gas/nuclear with renewables. If these people get their way they will cause more human suffering than a1000 fukushimas.

Edited January 3, 2014 by TimG

[bud]

Germany is building brand new coal plants to make up the difference. Renewables cannot provide base load power. All they can do is drive up the cost of power.

all true. the coal plants are supposedly a lot cleaner than the conventional coal plants. of course the reason for their use is because renewable energy sources cannot suddenly replace everything else. it's a process and we have not even come close to reaching the peak of technology when it comes to renewable energy sources like wind and solar.

[GostHacked]

It's a total farce is anyone thinks that they are removing anything from Reactor 4. There is no way they will be able to recover/remove anything from Reactor #3. Those fuel pools ran low or completely dry and the rods became exposed to the air. Instant reaction and high levels of radiation were released. STILL being released.

First off, none of these idiots know where the molten cores are. That is the only warning sign I need to know to tell me they do not have it under control and have no idea how to solve this.

The freeze wall was doomed to fail from the start. A really stupid idea of trying to freeze the ground. The energy /materials needed to accomplish that are not adequate to contain the site.

We will have to deal with constant radiation leaks from this place for another 40 years. It's still happening at Chernobyl, 20 years later, and that situation is being dealt with AGAIN.

[TimG]

It's a total farce is anyone thinks that they are removing anything from Reactor 4. There is no way they will be able to recover/remove anything from Reactor #3.

This is based on what? Your expertise in running a nuclear plant?

First off, none of these idiots know where the molten cores are. That is the only warning sign I need to know to tell me they do not have it under control and have no idea how to solve this.

And you think that you would be able to know this if you were in charge? Did you know that when they drill an oil well they have no idea where the the drill bit is? This is because there are no sensors that can tell them. They are forced to work with probabilities which is the same as what the people cleaning up Fukushima do.

The freeze wall was doomed to fail from the start. A really stupid idea of trying to freeze the ground. The energy /materials needed to accomplish that are not adequate to contain the site.

Says who? Someone who hates nuclear and WANTS to see it fail because it supports their irrational fear of the power source? Edited January 5, 2014 by TimG

[GostHacked]

This is based on what? Your expertise in running a nuclear plant?

See that red truck? that is pumping water into Reactor #4. The steam

Same building, other side, that big hole is at the level of the fuel pool. Big hole, big leak.

Simple observation. Compare that to this pic of the structure they are putting around it.

Where is the water?

And you think that you would be able to know this if you were in charge?

If they don't know, how can I know? And due to recent laws regarding information out of nuke plants, we may never really know. That is not something they should be keeping to themselves.

Did you know that when they drill an oil well they have no idea where the the drill bit is?

Oh they know. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Measurement_while_drilling. Or else you are simply poking the ground hoping to get oil. They know where the oil is and where the bit is in relation to that. They could not do this kind of work without knowing where the drill bit is.

This is because there are no sensors that can tell them. They are forced to work with probabilities which is the same as what the people cleaning up Fukushima do.

See above.

Says who? Someone who hates nuclear and WANTS to see it fail because it supports their irrational fear of the power source?

It already is a fail. I would love it if there was no nuclear disaster, but we live in a new reality.

Edited January 5, 2014 by GostHacked

[TimG]

Simple observation. Compare that to this pic of the structure they are putting around it.

In other words you know nothing. I see this same line of argument from 9/11 truthers. i.e. drawing dubious conclusions from photos.

Or else you are simply poking the ground hoping to get oil. They know where the oil is and where the bit is in relation to that. They could not do this kind of work without knowing where the drill bit is.

Sure they know it is somewhere below the where they started the hole. And they know the depth of the hole - but that is about it. The drill bit could be quite a horizontal distance from the top of the hole. Same thing with a nuclear plant - they know the core is some where below the reactor vessel but without sensors they can't know where it is exactly. This is normal.