blueblood Posted March 9, 2011 Report Posted March 9, 2011 Pik, we can look at it the way it is, is crime, overall up or down? Stats Can says down, in some cases way down (B&Es for instance, youth sexual assaults up) Some I agree.Edu and Health issues. Id rather we purge some of the non-sensical sentences and free up existing space before we criminalize and incarcerate more. From my understanding. The actual rehabilitation approach only works if said offender/addict/etc. truly wants to be rehabilitated. You can throw all the offenders into all the programs you want, but if they don't realize they have a problem and/or don't want rehab programs, then they are back out in society re offending and that doesn't do anyone any good either. I think the prison expenditure deals more with current overcrowding and the need to keep up with current population growth of the country more than anything. Quote "Stop the Madness!!!" - Kevin O'Leary "Money is the ultimate scorecard of life!". - Kevin O'Leary Economic Left/Right: 4.00 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -0.77
eyeball Posted March 9, 2011 Report Posted March 9, 2011 Pik, we can look at it the way it is, is crime, overall up or down? Stats Can says down, in some cases way down (B&Es for instance, youth sexual assaults up) Some I agree.Edu and Health issues. Id rather we purge some of the non-sensical sentences and free up existing space before we criminalize and incarcerate more. I'd rather purge the nonsensical crimes, like pot use, and free up the need for new sentences, prisons, cops etc etc. I mean c'mon, it's 2011 for crying out loud. We should be arguing about how many prisons could be closed and cops, prosecutors, judges, guards, etc etc we should lay off. Then we could argue about where we spend all the savings and revenues we'd get from taxing dope like booze, instead of criminalizing it, like we used to with booze. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Bonam Posted March 9, 2011 Report Posted March 9, 2011 I would like to see people that go to jail, automaticly get health issues look at 1st, then into a education system and then sit in jail to think about things for a while and then released. Why should someone that goes to jail get education that the rest of us have to pay for? Quote
guyser Posted March 9, 2011 Author Report Posted March 9, 2011 Why should someone that goes to jail get education that the rest of us have to pay for? It could well be a cheaper option in the long run than letting them sit in there. Quote
Keepitsimple Posted March 9, 2011 Report Posted March 9, 2011 Comparing our approach to Law & Order to that of the US is a case of apples and oranges. We are NOT the US. We do not have hundreds of urban blights that are packed with the outrageous legacy of Black inner city poverty that spawns the drug trade and murderous culture. They have a much more difficult problem to deal with. Canada's approach is not designed to throw thousands in jail - it's designed to develop more respect for society.....and regardless of what the critics say, money is being spent on all fronts by the Feds and the Provinces to address the root causes of poverty, to provide remedial action and training programs, to give first-time offenders a break.....and yes - to put repeat offenders and violent criminals in jail where they belong. We are NOT the US. Quote Back to Basics
madmax Posted March 9, 2011 Report Posted March 9, 2011 I want to see more cleaner newer jails for people ,so we don't have 5 per cell, and kids mixed in with career criminals.I would like to see people that go to jail, automaticly get health issues look at 1st, then into a education system and then sit in jail to think about things for a while and then released. Senator Doug Finley will appreciate your efforts. Quote
blueblood Posted March 9, 2011 Report Posted March 9, 2011 It could well be a cheaper option in the long run than letting them sit in there. And an incentive to commit crime... Quote "Stop the Madness!!!" - Kevin O'Leary "Money is the ultimate scorecard of life!". - Kevin O'Leary Economic Left/Right: 4.00 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -0.77
guyser Posted March 9, 2011 Author Report Posted March 9, 2011 And an incentive to commit crime... Commit a crime to get your high school diploma? Do you really think so? Quote
eyeball Posted March 9, 2011 Report Posted March 9, 2011 (edited) Comparing our approach to Law & Order to that of the US is a case of apples and oranges. We are NOT the US. We do not have hundreds of urban blights that are packed with the outrageous legacy of Black inner city poverty that spawns the drug trade and murderous culture. They have a much more difficult problem to deal with. Canada's approach is not designed to throw thousands in jail - it's designed to develop more respect for society.....and regardless of what the critics say, money is being spent on all fronts by the Feds and the Provinces to address the root causes of poverty, to provide remedial action and training programs, to give first-time offenders a break.....and yes - to put repeat offenders and violent criminals in jail where they belong. We are NOT the US. The approach being proposed for Canada is designed to create a more obsequious respect for authority and it includes expanding the criminal code and increasing the number of first time offenders that go to jail. It's based on fear and loathing by a fearful loathsome ideology. How many of these first-time offenders will learn how to pick locks, plan bank robberies and kidnappings and begin networking with similarly educated peers upon their release is anyone's guess. In any case if society insists on allowing itself to be governed by the fear of crime, by moral engineers who actually have to invent unreported cases of crime and increase the number of things that are criminal to make their point, that society deserves what it gets. I have no doubt at all that our approach will simply serve to increase poverty and pack a mean-spirited culture with ever more mean-spirited criminals. As far as I'm concerned these deserve each other. Edited March 9, 2011 by eyeball Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Keepitsimple Posted March 9, 2011 Report Posted March 9, 2011 (edited) The approach being proposed for Canada is designed to create a more obsequious respect for authority and it includes expanding the criminal code and increasing the number of first time offenders that go to jail. You're muddying the waters if you are bringing up Bill S10 which is aimed at Drug Traffickers. There's been debate in this forum about that and I grant you, SOME first-time drug traffickers WILL go to jail......but not - as some critics say - people who are growing 6 marijuana plants. Having said that, all the other justice reforms are aimed at repeat and violent offenders. Edited March 9, 2011 by Keepitsimple Quote Back to Basics
Bonam Posted March 9, 2011 Report Posted March 9, 2011 Commit a crime to get your high school diploma? Do you really think so? Along with a roof over your head, 3 meals a day, etc. It may well not seem like a bad option to a homeless person, don't you think? Quote
Scotty Posted March 9, 2011 Report Posted March 9, 2011 Those are unreliable surveys, as they are based voluntary reporting. How odd that Stats Canada undertakes this massive survey, so large it can only do it every 5 years, when the data is unreliable. Have you considered contacting them and informing them of your extensive expertise in statistical sampling, and telling them their data is without value? I'm sure they'd appreciate the information. The idea that people aren't reporting crime in the era of widespread cell phones is completely ludicrous. The ease of making a phone call has nothing whatsoever to do with why people would or would not report crime to police. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
guyser Posted March 9, 2011 Author Report Posted March 9, 2011 Along with a roof over your head, 3 meals a day, etc. It may well not seem like a bad option to a homeless person, don't you think? I guess a few might try it. Should we build more prisons and spend another $1B to house them? Quote
Scotty Posted March 9, 2011 Report Posted March 9, 2011 The approach being proposed for Canada is designed to create a more obsequious respect for authority and it includes expanding the criminal code and increasing the number of first time offenders that go to jail. It's based on fear and loathing by a fearful loathsome ideology. There is a school of thought in criminology which says that if you hammer someone who is a first time offender, that is much more likely to discourage a second offense than if you coddle him. If you take it easy, the offender might well think that his punishment was no big deal, and decide the fear of more of the same is little deterrent. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Scotty Posted March 9, 2011 Report Posted March 9, 2011 Along with a roof over your head, 3 meals a day, etc. It may well not seem like a bad option to a homeless person, don't you think? Some homeless people have been known to commit crimes specifically so they can go to jail. What do people actually feel is a deterrent in going to jail? What's bad about jail? Let's see, no women? Well, if you're a wino, that's not likely an issue. Violent companions? Theere's lots of those on the street. The British at least have hard labour, but there are no such sentences in Canada. We're too 'enlightened'. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Scotty Posted March 9, 2011 Report Posted March 9, 2011 (edited) Scotty, I did not ignore any part. You of course have had ample time to copme up with Stats Can publication saying crime is rising....but you didnt. My apologies. I have this tendency to think that people who regularly involve themselves in discussions on certain topics are reasonably aware of the information which is out there, especially when it's been discussed here on this forum numerous times. Overall, just under one-third (31%) of all incidents were reported to the police, down from 34% in 2004. In the case of violent crime, 29% of incidents were reported to police, while about 36% of household incidents were brought to their attention. Statistics Canada So police-reported crime is dropping... because people aren't reporting it. I don't regard that as a reason to celebrate and stop worrying about crime. Edited March 9, 2011 by Scotty Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
guyser Posted March 9, 2011 Author Report Posted March 9, 2011 My apologies. I have this tendency to think that people who regularly involve themselves in discussions on certain topics are reasonably aware of the information which is out there, especially when it's been discussed here on this forum numerous times. You will note you never backed up any of your positions with any facts until now. I did. And frankly you were wrong then as you are wrong now. Sorry, but it is true. You said and I quote..."Police reported crime is dropping. Crime, on the other hand, is not. Stats Can's own victims surveys say as much" So now you post this link . Lets look at it ...."Overall, rates of victimization resulting from household crimes also remained stable between 2004 and 2009" Uh , now what were you saying again? So , let me repeat, crime is down, has been down and will likely still drop as we movce forward. All fact. And really, your own link? Look at what you posted. Overall, just under one-third (31%) of all incidents were reported to the police, down from 34% in 2004. In the case of violent crime, 29% of incidents were reported to police, while about 36% of household incidents were brought to their attention. So police-reported crime is dropping... because people aren't reporting it. I don't regard that as a reason to celebrate and stop worrying about crime. Lets celebrate this then. Crime is down and still dropping. Un-reported crime is down slightly but almost on par from 2004. From the same link.... Over 9 in 10 Canadians (93%) said they were either satisfied or very satisfied with their personal safety from crime, similar to 2004 (94%). 93%....well hot damn. Bet they , well obviously, dont worry about crime. Quote
Scotty Posted March 10, 2011 Report Posted March 10, 2011 You will note you never backed up any of your positions with any facts until now. I did. [ I back up everything I say. And frankly you were wrong then as you are wrong now. Sorry, but it is true. You said and I quote..."Police reported crime is dropping. Crime, on the other hand, is not. Stats Can's own victims surveys say as much" So now you post this link . Lets look at it ...."Overall, rates of victimization resulting from household crimes also remained stable between 2004 and 2009" Uh , now what were you saying again? That crime isn't dropping. What part of "remained stable" eludes you? So , let me repeat, crime is down, Police reported crime is down because fewer people are bothering to report crime. Overall, just under one-third (31%) of all incidents were reported to the police, down from 34% in 2004. In the case of violent crime, 29% of incidents were reported to police, while about 36% of household incidents were brought to their attention. Lets celebrate this then. Why? I'm satisfied with my personal safety. I have strong locks on the doors, bars o the basement windows, and a burglar alarm system. Does that mean I'm happy with the crime rate, or the 22% crime solution rate the police have? Uhm, no. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
GostHacked Posted March 10, 2011 Report Posted March 10, 2011 Commit a crime to get your high school diploma? Do you really think so? Seems odd ... however. I'd rather have criminals working towards some kind of education instead of pumping iron out in the yard. Do we want an educated reformed person leaving the prison or an even more hardened criminal with a chip on his shoulder seeking revenge? Quote
guyser Posted March 10, 2011 Author Report Posted March 10, 2011 I back up everything I say. Sadly, no you dont. I went thru all the pages on this thread and not one link you posted. You are free to show otherwise. That crime isn't dropping. What part of "remained stable" eludes you? Heres your chance. Pst us something that shows crime isnt dropping. Why? I'm satisfied with my personal safety. I have strong locks on the doors, bars o the basement windows, and a burglar alarm system.Does that mean I'm happy with the crime rate, or the 22% crime solution rate the police have? Uhm, no. Never lock my doors if at home, frequently leave them open all summer , no bars anywhere, no extra locks and no alarm system. By the way, if your alarm system is run through your phone line, then you dont have an alarm system. You have false security blanket. Quote
guyser Posted March 10, 2011 Author Report Posted March 10, 2011 Seems odd ... however. I'd rather have criminals working towards some kind of education instead of pumping iron out in the yard. Do we want an educated reformed person leaving the prison or an even more hardened criminal with a chip on his shoulder seeking revenge? The pumpin iron thing does calm the inmates. They have to have a physical release or they'd go nuts. But yes, education is a good thing. Quote
eyeball Posted March 10, 2011 Report Posted March 10, 2011 Statistics Canada Excuse me but why should we believe what the Harper regime is telling Canadians when the information it's basing it's proposed policies on comes from the very same Statistics Canada the regime says is otherwise generally useless when it comes to serving Canadian's needs? Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Scotty Posted March 11, 2011 Report Posted March 11, 2011 Excuse me but why should we believe what the Harper regime is telling Canadians when the information it's basing it's proposed policies on comes from the very same Statistics Canada the regime says is otherwise generally useless when it comes to serving Canadian's needs? Would you like to produce some quotes or cites where the 'regime' said Stats Canada was 'generally useless when it comes to serving Canadians' needs"? Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
eyeball Posted March 11, 2011 Report Posted March 11, 2011 Would you like to produce some quotes or cites where the 'regime' said Stats Canada was 'generally useless when it comes to serving Canadians' needs"? That wasn't obvious given it's plan to scrap the census - you actually swallowed the invasiveness hook, line and sinker? Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
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