American Decline

[blueblood]

So...you're ignoring the meat of my post. And yet, oddly, responding to it.

The banks and the investment firms that were loan buyers did not react to low-income people buying expensive homes; they engineered it.

Did low income people have a gun to their head forcing them to buy an expensive home rather than a cheap home or an apartment?

[pinko]

Did low income people have a gun to their head forcing them to buy an expensive home rather than a cheap home or an apartment?

No but they were duped by the low rate up front. Didn't you follow the fraudulent practices of the bankers?

Edited March 7, 2011 by pinko

[bush_cheney2004]

No but they were duped by the low rate up front. Didn't you follow the fraudulent practices of the bankers?

"Stupid is as stupid does."

[pinko]

"Stupid is as stupid does."

Yes the lenders and borrowers deserved each other. I am sure there are some good deals to be had in the land of the free.

[blueblood]

"Stupid is as stupid does."

Some of us in the ag industry and rural small businesses are having a laugh at the whole credit card situation. We will not make credit card purchases unless we have cash in the bank to pay for it. Unfortunately some people rack up obscene credit card debt. Thanks to their high debt obligations, they have allowed responsible card holders to have free carribbean vacations every year and what amounts to free bookkeeping. RBC avion, the only way to roll!!

Your right stupid is as stupid does!

[pinko]

http://www.suzeorman.com/

[blueblood]

http://www.suzeorman.com/

"If you can't afford it, put it down". Great advice for those fools thinking they can afford a 300k house with a 30k income.

http://www.google.com/search?client=ms-rim&hl=en&q=suze%20orman%20-%20if%20you%20cant%20afford%20it%20put%20it%20down&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&channel=browser

http://www.oprah.com/own-ask-oprahs-all-stars/Financial-Advice-from-Suze-Orman-Ask-Oprahs-All-Stars-102/2

Edited March 8, 2011 by blueblood

[pinko]

"If you can't afford it, put it down". Great advice for those fools thinking they can afford a 300k house with a 30k income.

http://www.google.com/search?client=ms-rim&hl=en&q=suze%20orman%20-%20if%20you%20cant%20afford%20it%20put%20it%20down&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&channel=browser

http://www.oprah.com/own-ask-oprahs-all-stars/Financial-Advice-from-Suze-Orman-Ask-Oprahs-All-Stars-102/2

We live in a modest home on a modest income in a modest neighbourhood. We don't have a mortgage although I have a line of credit for the car I purchased last year.

Edited March 8, 2011 by pinko

[blueblood]

We live in a modest home on a modest income in a modest neighbourhood. We don't have a mortgage although I have a line of credit for the car I purchased last year.

Outstanding, since a car value is less than earnings and the house is paid off your in a lot better shape than most people.

[bloodyminded]

Did low income people have a gun to their head forcing them to buy an expensive home rather than a cheap home or an apartment?

Of course not.

But they were informed by banking experts that they could afford such homes--and the banking and investment experts were lying directly into their faces when they told them this.

The executives knew they couldn't afford it; they knew the loans wouldn't be paid.

That's why they bet on this; they bet against their own clients.

And they knew that taxpayers would bail out the institutions; because they knew that both Democrats and Republicans could be counted on.

Just as the ratings agencies giving out triple and double "A" ratings were lying.

What you're advocating is for rich people to deceive people, for the sake of profit; and you're advocating a blame-the-victim approach. "If you let me ruin you for my profit (thanks to your ignorance and my deceptions) then all is fair."

That's outright moral degenracy. Congratulations.

And again, I urge you to look into the matter--up to and including listening to what so many of the insiders themselves have had to say about it.

So while you defend the actions of the large firms and institutions, the insiders themselves are telling you that you're dead wrong about it.

So when Alan Greenspan says that "a PhD in math couldn't understand these loan agreements," your rebuttal is that Greenspan is financially ignorant. And when the Chief Economist of Citibank claims that the housing crash was the direct result of the greed and deception of executives...well, you understand Citibank better than their Chief Economist does!

Edited March 13, 2011 by bloodyminded

[pinko]

Of course not.

But they were informed by banking experts that they could afford such homes--and the banking and investment experts were lying directly into their faces when they told them this.

The executives knew they couldn't afford it; they knew the loans wouldn't be paid.

That's why they bet on this; they bet against their own clients.

And they knew that taxpayers would bail out the institutions; because they knew that both Democrats and Republicans could be counted on.

Just as the ratings agencies giving out triple and double "A" ratings were lying.

What you're advocating is for rich people to deceive people, for the sake of profit; and you're advocating a blame-the-victim approach. "If you let me ruin you for my profit (thanks to your ignorance and my deceptions) then all is fair."

That's outright moral degenracy. Congratulations.

And again, I urge you to look into the matter--up to and including listening to what so many of the insiders themselves have had to say about it.

So while you defend the actions of the large firms and institutions, the insiders themselves are telling you that you're dead wrong about it.

So when Alan Greenspan says that "a PhD in math couldn't understand these loan agreements," your rebuttal is that Greenspan is financially ignorant. And when the Chief Economist of Citibank claims that the housing crash was the direct result of the greed and deception of executives...well, you understand Citibank better than their Chief Economist does!

This may be a bit off topic but I was watching Suze Orman on PBS speaking to an audience in Minnesota about the new reality in the Unites States of America and the paradigm shift in attitudes toward home ownership and debt.

Here is a link to that program http://www.pbs.org/about/news/archive/2011/suze-orman-money-class/

With regard to the topic at hand there is very little doubt that large scale fraud occurred and most of it resided in the investment banks with many of its representative praying on the poor to gain extremely lucrative

returns.

That many of these individuals who created the financial meltdown escaped prosecution is a reflection of the dysfunctional nature of the American financial system. Meanwhile many citizens are out on the street and many others are at various stages of foreclosure.

Edited March 13, 2011 by pinko

[CANADIEN]

Nobody forceed the people to take those loans with a gun. Nobody forced the banks to offer those loans either.

Either bank executives did it knowing full well most of these people would not be able to pay, then sold the loans, defrauded and lied. Or there were downright incompetent and stupid.

[pinko]

Nobody forceed the people to take those loans with a gun. Nobody forced the banks to offer those loans either.

Either bank executives did it knowing full well most of these people would not be able to pay, then sold the loans, defrauded and lied. Or there were downright incompetent and stupid.

You may be right but the fallout from such egregious conduct is quite obvious.

[CANADIEN]

You may be right but the fallout from such egregious conduct is quite obvious.

That's right. Which is why, while it can be argued that, well, you should not buy a house that is worth 8 or 9 times your annual salary, the bulk of the blame lies with the banks. They knew full well (or should have known) that billions of dollars in bad mortgages was, quite simply, bad.

[bloodyminded]

That's right. Which is why, while it can be argued that, well, you should not buy a house that is worth 8 or 9 times your annual salary, the bulk of the blame lies with the banks. They knew full well (or should have known) that billions of dollars in bad mortgages was, quite simply, bad.

Yes. And of course people made a mistake to buy out of their income possibilities. But it was the experts themselves who kept informing people they could afford it. "It's a new economy, and a new mortgaging system," the predators crooned lovingly to the unitiated. "Sure, you can't conceivably understand the loan agreement we've drawn up (Greenspan himself stated that a PhD in math couldn't understand them)...but that's because they're in your favour. This loan is built just for people in your situation!

"Your dream is real! We're not kidding! go for it!"

Under the old system, when banks assumed risks through loans, this never would have happened. But now it is a constant moving about of invenyed capital, high profits all the way along, and finally tax saviours as the endgame.

It was outright deceit, done with the knowledge that the people woud fail....hence the bundling and selling of home loans, and then betting that people would fail (and profiting from these bets); and then, ultimately, tax bailouts to save the companies and institutions that the executives themselves put in such an untenable position.

It sounds almost too crazy to be true; but once you hear the executives and in-house economists themselves admitting to it (in the movie Inside Job) well, you know it's true. People don't tend to blame and indict themselves unless what they are saying is accurate.

Edited March 14, 2011 by bloodyminded