Should Canada Direct more Efforts into Recruiting European Immigrants

[Saipan]

BTW, is it your argument that unless we get immigrants from white err I mean European countries, we will sink to the kind of living conditions encountered in Africa? Please feel free to provide your proof - I need the laugh.

YES!

And laugh? Yes too

Follow the shooting in Toronto for example.

See Caribbean.

See crime stats from African countries.

[Smallc]

The system does need improvement, but I don't think that your solution is a real answer.

[Saipan]

vast numbers of immigrants from China and the Middle East are performing very poorly

TWO very different categories.

Middle East yes.

Chinese in Canada are on the average the richest. If you live in Toronto see Markham for example.

[Saipan]

Where is it then?

In Iceland.

Just like New Zealand is in new Zealand. Not in Australia.

[Scotty]

I guess that means bringing in as many people from Kazakhstan, Turkey and Roma from eastern Europe too ?

If you want to find a defining characteristic for how immigrants succeed, you could probably find a better way than picking a continent that they come from.

I'm all for finding a defining characteristic for how immigrants succeed. Believe me, I'm all for it! I suspect it begins with language skills and includes a suitable skill set, as well as a cultural background of adaptability, entrepreneurship and determination.

Evidently, education is not the key component, as in some of the cites I've already posted Stats Canada has found that those coming in under the "skilled immigrants" program have a higher unemployment rate after we upped the education requirements than they used to. I don't think a masters degree in engineering or whatever is going to get you a good job in Canada unless your language skills are similarly well-developed. I think, in fact, that the higher level of job you aim for, the higher level of language and communications skills are required. We would be far better off bringing in tradesmen with grade eight educations who know how to lay bricks than a bunch of people from third world universities who don't speak English. You can still lay bricks and do most other trades here without a high degree of language skills.

In any event, absent this specific to the person measurement what we have to go by is geographic origin. And some geographic locales clearly contain a lot more of this type of person than others do.

[CANADIEN]

YES!

And laugh? Yes too

Follow the shooting in Toronto for example.

See Caribbean.

See crime stats from African countries.

More important, let's see how many children in Canada do not even finish high school because half of their teachers have died of AIDS. How many children are forced to become child soldiers. How many women are raped by marauding soldiers. How many people die every year because of food shortages. Themn, let's prove that this is comparable to what is happening in Africa. after all, according to you that is, since welcoming more immigrants from Africa will make us like Africa, I am sure the evidence is already there, right?

Edited March 6, 2011 by CANADIEN

[Scotty]

If they are from Czech Republic then they are definitely European right ?

So they should be part of the group targeted for recruitment into Canada as per the poll question.

You know, it's not like I'm suggesting we should throw open the doors to anyone and everyone who lives in Europe. I'm not saying we should remove our criteria for judging the ability of a new immigrant to succeed here. I'm simply pointing out that using our current criteria, immigrants from certain parts of the world fare far better here than others. And thus we should attempt to get fewer immigrants from those areas which fare poorly, and more from those areas which fare better. What's wrong with that?

Edited March 6, 2011 by Scotty

[Scotty]

The system does need improvement, but I don't think that your solution is a real answer.

I never offered it as 'the answer'. I merely suggest that it would almost certainly result in a considerable improvement in the economic fortunes of immigrants in Canada. Do you dispute that?

[Smallc]

I never offered it as 'the answer'. I merely suggest that it would almost certainly result in a considerable improvement in the economic fortunes of immigrants in Canada. Do you dispute that?

Yes, I do. There are thousands of variables that you haven't controlled for with your hypothesis.

[Scotty]

TWO very different categories.

Middle East yes.

Chinese in Canada are on the average the richest. If you live in Toronto see Markham for example.

China is our number one source for immigrants. So of course, a number of them are doing well. Unfortunately, as the stats demonstrate, overall, immigrants from China earn near the bottom of the list, less than half what Europeans do. You see the big houses in Markham but you don't see the families crammed into tiny apartments in other parts of the city.

[CANADIEN]

You know, it's not like I'm suggesting we should throw open the doors to anyone and everyone who lives in Europe. I'm not saying we should remove our criteria for judging the ability of a new immigrant to succeed here. I'm simply pointing out that using our current criteria, immigrants from certain parts of the world fare far better here than others. And thus we should attempt to get fewer immigrants from those areas which fare poorly, and more from those areas which fare better. What's wrong with that?

You are simply advocating that where an individual immigrant comes from should be more important than whether or not he/she is actually able to make it here. Then you turn around and claim "but I am not advocating changing our criteria" when flaws in your logic are pointed.

Actually, you ARE advocating a change in criteria.

Edited March 6, 2011 by CANADIEN

[Scotty]

Yes, I do. There are thousands of variables that you haven't controlled for with your hypothesis.

No doubt there are lots of variables in how long a spark plug lasts, too. That doesn't change the fact that one brand performs twice as well, overall, as the other brand.

You still prefer to purchase the other brand. Seems odd to me.

[CANADIEN]

No doubt there are lots of variables in how long a spark plug lasts, too. That doesn't change the fact that one brand performs twice as well, overall, as the other brand.

You still prefer to purchase the other brand. Seems odd to me.

Oh. we are talking about buying spark plugs? How silly of me. I thought we were talking about PEOPLE.

[Saipan]

Indeed. After their history for most of the 70's. 80's and 90's, I would be very careful about admitting anyone from Northern Ireland, wouldn't you agree?

See world homicide rates.

But perhaps admitting anyone from Orange Order would be foolish. It would be the same as parading in the streets of Montreal every year celebrating defeat of the French. We would have FLQ everywhere

Now some facts in lieu of speculation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

[Saipan]

You see the big houses in Markham but you don't see the families crammed into tiny apartments in other parts of the city.

90% of those in Toronto public housing are from Caribean, Africa and India. Shooting almost daily occurence. Not Chinese. In fact they don't want blacks in Chinatown, they are stealing.

[Scotty]

You are simply advocating that where an individual immigrant comes from should be more important than whether or not he/she is actually able to make it here. Then you turn around and claim "but I am not advocating changing our criteria" when flaws in your logic are pointed.

Actually, you ARE advocating a change in criteria.

No I'm not. With regard to judging the application of an immigrant I haven't suggested a single change - though I could.

I have simply suggested we should aim our efforts, encouraging immigration, as it were, towards those geographic locales which produce more successful immigrants, and away from those areas that appear to produce the worst. That is, we should select our immigrants rather than having them select us.

People seem to forget that there was a time when Canada used to advertise for immigrants abroad. We don't do that now. Why not? What's wrong with advertising in places in Europe which produce solid citizens? What's wrong with doing our best to encourage immigration from those areas?

Edited March 6, 2011 by Scotty

[CANADIEN]

See world homicide rates.

But perhaps admitting anyone from Orange Order would be foolish. It would be the same as parading in the streets of Montreal every year celebrating defeat of the French. We would have FLQ everywhere

Now some facts in lieu of speculation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

Let's talk facts indeed.

Like in the fact that you wouldn't ban immigration from Northern Ireland just because of the political violence that plagued this place, but banning immigrants from non-white countries is fine, even when the person standing at a Canadian consulate has never committed a single crime. Two different stadards (oh, btw, in case you are tempted to make a fool of yourself by arguing that I favour admitting anyone and everyone, no matter what, I don't, and criminals need not apply no matter where they come from).

Speaking of fact. Let's also consider the one important fact - crime rates in canada have been declining since 1991.

Now, the incidence of crimes in certain communities is indeed something to be taken seriously. But not as an excuse for an outright ban that would include potential immigrants who are not criminals.

[Scotty]

Oh. we are talking about buying spark plugs? How silly of me. I thought we were talking about PEOPLE.

As far as Canada is concerned immigrants are a commodity like any other, and so we should be selecting the best we can find.

There is a reason why graduates from Harvard and Oxford are sought after while those from Carleton are somewhat less so.

Edited March 6, 2011 by Scotty

[Scotty]

90% of those in Toronto public housing are from Caribean, Africa and India. Shooting almost daily occurence. Not Chinese. In fact they don't want blacks in Chinatown, they are stealing.

The statistics speak for themselves. Either you accept them or you don't.

Toronto is not the only location for Chinese and Asian immigrants. Most, in fact, wind up in BC. And while the latest boat refugees came from Sri Lanka you seem to have forgotten earlier ones.

Chinese Boat People

[CANADIEN]

No I'm not. With regard to judging the application of an immigrant I haven't suggested a single change - thought I could.

I have simply suggested we should aim our efforts, encouraging immigration, as it were, towards those geographic locales which produce more successful immigrants, and away from those areas that appear to produce the worst. That is, we should select our immigrants rather than having them select us.

Call it whatever you want. It is still changing criterais, but putting more importance on where people come from than on what they can actually accomplish.

People seem to forget that there was a time when Canada used to advertise for immigrants abroad. We don't do that now. Why not? What's wrong with advertising in places in Europe which produce solid citizens? What's wrong with doing our best to encourage immigration from those areas?

What's wrong with doing our best to encourage immigrants who can make it in this country to migrate, regardless of where they come from? Interesting, btw, that immigration is such a bad thing (at least based on your past postings) but it is to be welcomed if it comes from certain countries rather than other.

[Saipan]

More important, let's see how many children in Canada do not even finish high school because half of their teachers have died of AIDS. How many children are forced to become child soldiers. How many women are raped by marauding soldiers. How many people die every year because of food shortages. Themn, let's prove that this is comparable to what is happening in Africa. after all, according to you that is, since welcoming more immigrants from Africa will make us like Africa, I am sure the evidence is already there, right?

Right on.

[CANADIEN]

As far as Canada is concerned immigrants are a commodity like any other, and so we should be selecting the best we can find.

There is a reason why graduates from Harvard and Oxford are sought after while those from Carleton are somewhat less so.

As far has any person with common sense is concerned, people are not a commodity. They are people, period.

Nice try with the comparison between schools and countries. One, given that they do have the credentials to do it, can choose which university they attend. One doesn't choose where they were born.

But its great to know that you would choose let's a jamaican-born graduate from Harvard before let's say a Pole who has chosen to stop her studies in Warsaw to immigrate here.

[CANADIEN]

Right on.

As I said, show th numbers. Let's start with comparing literacy rates in Mozambique and Canada, for example, and how immigration from Mozambique and neighbouring countries are affecting said rates. Since, according to the United Nations, Canada's rate stands at about 99% while Mozambique's is lower than 50%, the conclusion is pretty self-evident.

[Saipan]

Let's talk facts indeed.

Like in the fact that you wouldn't ban immigration from Northern Ireland just because of the political violence that plagued this place

Back to WORLD HOMICIDE RATES.

We wouldn't allow British Comandos (the cause of the problem) either. Only civilians.

but banning immigrants from non-white countries is fine

Some Asians are more pale than "us". What's your point? BACK TO WORLD HOMICIDE RATES.

Let's also consider the one important fact - crime rates in canada have been declining since 1991.

They are declining in the USA as well. But compare Canada homicide rate of the 40's 50's and early 60's. Yes, the Happy Days. MUCH lower.

Now, the incidence of crimes in certain communities is indeed something to be taken seriously. But not as an excuse for an outright ban that would include potential immigrants who are not criminals.

Why ban? Use the SAME yardstick for everyone. Why are "minorities" given slack for example in hiring for police??? Just to have the right QUOTAS?

[Saipan]

As I said, show th numbers. Let's start with comparing literacy rates in Mozambique and Canada, for example, and how immigration from Mozambique and neighbouring countries are affecting said rates. Since, according to the United Nations, Canada's rate stands at about 99% while Mozambique's is lower than 50%, the conclusion is pretty self-evident.

AND YOUR EXACT POINT IS?