harper thinks world is flat...

[cgarrett]

i don't trust anyone who thinks that the world is flat or that the moon is made of cheese.

harper continues to be a global warming denier... his pockets are so full of oil money its not even funny. and the crazy thing is that the shift in energy supplies means great prosperity to parts of canada (but a decline for the big alberta oil moguls). he is simply there to enforce the status quo.

[willy]

Thanks for your brilliant insight.

Kyoto is not being implemented. The Liberals have no plan.

Harper would prefer to focus on PM(smog). This does not exclude Co2 reduction but it also does not make it the only focus. As a nation we have very few environmental standards. This should change but Kyoto will not make that happen.

As for oil only being in Alberta, it also drives north eastern BC, Saskatchewan’s, New Foundland’s and New Brunswick’s economy. We will need oil for many more years to come. Now is not the time to shut off the tap.

Petro chemicals not only fuel our cars but they make many of the plastics we use, like the one you are typing on.

So before you accuse others of not being in reality, look at the consequences of moving to technology that does not exist. No power, no economy, no economy, no healthcare, no education, no social programs, no government money at all. You will probably say none of these things matter if we can’t breath, and I will say Kyoto, doesn’t address smog.

Incremental positive change is the way to go. The Conservatives will move to a policy to tighten permits for emissions over time and focusing on heavy metals and PM10 or below. This is a great place to start and it will affect the air many of us breathe.

[Slavik44]

well good thing that Harper doesn't belive the Earth is flat or the moon is made of cheese, so you can belive him.

Furthermore you talk about a shift away from oil, so I went and did a search to find out if it was true; what i found was the consumption of oil was steadily increasng, not decreasing. Wich woudl make sense with the modernization of china and that process occuring in india.

Now then it would make sense that the consumption of oil does not need anyone to keep it high, we do that fine on our own. Now that I have your blatent lies out of the way we can start to adress the topic.

What have you done to stop global warming? I mean why rely on the government if you don't trust them to do that? It isn't that hard for simply one person to drive a more fuel efficient car, infact it would cheeper. Lawnmowers are one of the worst polluters out there, however you could by an electric one and solve that problem. home depot offers energy efficient light bulbs, the last longer and they save energy. Does every light in your hosue have one? Have you checked the insulation of your house recently? that could reduce up to 30% of your house's energy consumption. How aobut the ducts in your home, how much energy are they wasting? Have you ever thought of turning back your houses thermostat to save energy? How aobut an electric BBQ?

What am I gettign at their? Simple, every one is prepared to critisize the government, they are ready to do that. however, many times they are the culprits of ineficiency, in truth the conservatives represent the majority of population on this, as the majority of the population is more like, "saving the earth yeah thats great save the earth, what its going to involve me???????" so please before going to the blame the government rhetoric start with yourself, and ask what you can do to stop global warming. the government in most cases only follows the actions of consumers, and if the actions of consumers say, more oil, less responsibility, and it is someone elses problem, the governemnt will do the same. Should the conservatives support the kyoto protocol, well yes but no. The amount of imediate reductions palced on canada would really be fairly disasterous. Yes we should work towards being able to implement the protocol by starting are own reduction policies and goals that eventual would see us succeed in a manenr that doesn't kill buisness, and a manner that allows for a smooth transition. I don't see any party truley implementing that, and I see the implementation of kyoto as being much like the gun registry, a way to buy votes. But at what cost? it will be much higher then a petty 2 billion. In the end slow and steady wins the race, so instead fo going at this like we are, lets be smart about it and consider everyone in the big picture and allow for everyone to adjust.

[falling leaf]

cgarret & Slavik44

well good thing that Harper doesn't belive the Earth is flat or the moon is made of cheese, so you can belive him.

Furthermore you talk about a shift away from oil, so I went and did a search to find out if it was true; what i found was the consumption of oil was steadily increasng, not decreasing. Wich woudl make sense with the modernization of china and that process occuring in india.

Now then it would make sense that the consumption of oil does not need anyone to keep it high, we do that fine on our own. Now that I have your blatent lies out of the way we can start to adress the topic

believe Not belive

Address not adress

which not wich

would not woudl

I not i

Read what you post!

This is a bunch of lies. Show me the site where you get your data please.

[August1991]

Kyoto is an international agreement that excludes China and India (as well as most other "poor" countries), that benchmarks Germany with pre-1990 East Germany levels, and UK with pre-natural gas levels.

In fact, it's an attempt of the poor south to get more money from the US. It has nothing little to do with the environment at all.

Chretien may have signed on but the Libs have no way to implement the accord. This is the worst form of bureaucracy: "Say we did it or make the numbers fit because no one checks anyway."

Faced with the complex question of protecting the environment, we now use simplistic shibboleths to decide whether someone is good or not. Pro-Kyoto=good and anti-Kyoto=bad.

It's as meaningless as Greenpeace endorsing the NDP but not the Green Party. (Greenpeace CEO is ex-NDP.)

Is this going to be the next ant-Tory scare tactic?

[Slavik44]

cgarret & Slavik44

well good thing that Harper doesn't belive the Earth is flat or the moon is made of cheese, so you can belive him.

Furthermore you talk about a shift away from oil, so I went and did a search to find out if it was true; what i found was the consumption of oil was steadily increasng, not decreasing. Wich woudl make sense with the modernization of china and that process occuring in india.

Now then it would make sense that the consumption of oil does not need anyone to keep it high, we do that fine on our own. Now that I have your blatent lies out of the way we can start to adress the topic

believe Not belive

Address not adress

which not wich

would not woudl

I not i

Read what you post!

This is a bunch of lies. Show me the site where you get your data please.

you really must go and start the whole spelling thing again must you, after I had jsut gotten finsihed with that, not only that but you can't even come up with original insults, you have to copy someone else. I came to thsi site to talk politics not to have my spelling torn down. Honestly maybe whent he election is over I will come back to this site when people are willing to talk politics and policies again but this is pathetic. You want my sources sure I'll give them to you all you need to do is ask, I mean what woudl you prefer at the end of every post I put footnote atributing the credits to where I got my info? I don't see you demanding anyoen else do that.

---------------------------------------------------

1.Oil consumption:

But in years to come world demand will only head one way, spurred on in part by rising living standards in Asia.

source:

http://www.abc.net.au/business/mnb/content...nt/s1123838.htm

2. Kyoto irresponsibly being implemented

"No one knows what's going on with Kyoto," Mr. Campbell said in an exclusive interview with the Financial Post, noting that in recent conversations with fellow premiers he found they were all in the dark about what ratification of the agreement on reduction of greenhouse gases will mean.

http://forests.org/articles/reader.asp?linkid=15599

3. Economic Impacts of Kyoto

CONSAD Research Corporation, one of the nation's leading economic forecasting firms, conducted a May 1998 economic analysis of the proposed Kyoto Protocol. Their analysis parallels findings by other leading economic forecasters which detail the negative impact this treaty will have on employment, economic output, and standard of life for working families, senior citizens, and those who live on fixed or low-incomes. The study provides a 50 state breakdown of job losses and economic dislocation due to policies enacted to implement the Kyoto Protocol.

http://www.consad.com/reports/kyoto.htm

------------------------------------------------------------------

So there you go, jsut because my typing is messy does not mean I do not research my stuff, and as always my question stands what are you yourself doing to save the environment? Blaming the government?

Edited June 18, 2004 by Greg

[cgarrett]

actually, did i mention kyoto in my post?

harper has a wonderful "calculated ambiguity" on the topic of carbon dioxide.

he talks a lot about kyoto... fighting against it, voting for it etc etc. but he is very careful not to say anything that might infer that carbon dioxide is helping to heat the planet. he does not indicate that carbon dioxide should be ruled a pollutant. he just wants to talk about smog.

sure, the slow sure method may do something... eventually. but many have indicated that kyoto is far far too little. does this not suggest that we are doomed if we cannot even implement kyoto?

i'm sorry that i am someone who is concerned about this. but in my lifetime now, i am noticing a huge difference in the weather where i am and i believe that part of the lie is to give baby boomers some idea that this will only affect the next generation. but i will be around for another 30 years! think about it... this year we had summer weather and water restrictions in april and everyday seems to be record temperatures where i live. over the last decade this is happening at an advanced rate. how much longer do you plan to be alive? if every five years we have summer weather one month early then in 20 years there will be no winter at all. just think about it.

i have done more to combat this situation than most. i have been an avid bicyclist all of my life. after getting married a couple of years ago i found myself driving everywhere. this year my wife and i have two new cruiser bicycles and are enjoying them tremendously. we bicycle everywhere a few times a day. i've had it with oil! but let me tell you something... everywhere i bicycle something is extremely clear! we live amongst huge filthy dinosaurs! the internal combustion engine is a relic of the past and a symptom of mankind's worst features. its big and hungry, its extremely wasteful and it is everywhere! its like a plague!

[Reverend Blair]

A few things.

Kyoto was meant to be a first step in dealing with a problem that threatens all of us. Global warming is real.

Kyoto deals with the countries that made the current mess. That is us, not China or India.

Kyoto is to be implemented gradually. That we've wasted so long fighting about it and are now behind in our goals is not a problem with the agreement or the goals, it is a problem with the politicians and those who deny science if that science might cost them a dollar.

Reducing CO2 output also reduces smog since many of the sources are the same. Harper tries to evade that little fact, but Harper is owned by the oil boys and they've been lying to us for years.

New and developing technologies have historically served as an engine to drive economies while relying on old technologies have caused economies to stagnate.

Cleaner energy could be a major aid to turning provinces like Manitoba and Quebec into have provinces instead of have-not provinces.

Hydro-electric, wind, and tidal generators are in use in most of the world. The technology, while still developing, is already available.

The Liberals have been draging their feet on Kyoto because their corporate backers don't like it. Guess what? Corporations don't like anything but profits.

[Reverend Blair]

http://sf.indymedia.org/uploads/harpervillain.swf

[Argus]

A few things.

Kyoto was meant to be a first step in dealing with a problem that threatens all of us.  Global warming is real.

Kyoto deals with the countries that made the current mess.  That is us, not China or India.

Kyoto is to be implemented gradually.  That we've wasted so long fighting about it and are now behind in our goals is not a problem with the agreement or the goals, it is a problem with the politicians and those who deny science if that science might cost them a dollar.

It just all sounds so darned earnest when you put it like that.

BTW, the politicians who haven't implimented it - Liberals.

BTW, the bit about politicians not liking science when it "costs them a dollar", actually it's the taxpayers who pay, and it's not a dollar, it's tens of billions of dollars. Then there's the widespread unemployment you want to tempt by increasing taxes to pay for Kyoto and by making our industry adhere to a rigid set of rules that the Americans and other trading partners will not. It's all very well to say it's not the Chinese or Indians at fault. But they represent over two billion people, and they have growing industries which compete with ours. You want to give them a free ride? Sure. Probably because you've decided it won't cost YOU your job.

And we're to do all this to accomplish what exactly? To eliminate the threat of global warming? Uhm, er, no. Unless I misremember the aim of the Kyoto accord, if everyone signs on, is to slow global warming by a small fraction. Yeah, worth bankrupting ourselves over. Sure.

New and developing technologies have historically served as an engine to drive economies while relying on old technologies have caused economies to stagnate.

Again, this is quite precious, and oh-so earnest, but where are these "new and developing technologies". On the drawing boards? Fine, but you can't power a city or run steel mills on ideas. You need energy. Affordable energy.

And people work in those steel mills. And have families. And masses of others rely on the secondary employment generated by those factories. So a bit of realism, please.

[Bob69]

You people all miss the point. You debate and argue over who said what and who promised this and that.

They are all liars. All parties involved will say and do whatever it takes to get power, and will turn around and do all the same things that the last party in power did.

It is all a game to the politicians. If they don't win, do they have to go find another job after? No, they still collect a huge salary from us and go sit on the bench and jeer the winners for the next 4 years. If they do win, they give themselves a big raise on our dime, pat each other on the backs and say. "See you in the finals next time" What a joke. On us. Our one political power is our vote, and it has no power when our only choices treat election to power like winning the Stanley cup. I have voted every year of my adult life because it is all I can do. I see the futility of it more and more as the years go by. The only thing that keeps me voting is a little shred of hope that something will get better. It's this hope that will probably keep us all birds in a gilded cage.

I may just as well go vote for the Marijuana party

[caesar]

Yes, we should all do our part in reducing pollutants and helping to save our environment. Many people are willing and ready to do this. The big polluters are not individuals but are the large smelters, factories, and other companies that are more interested in the bottom line. government rules are needed to bring them into line. Without government guidelines we would still not have many of the less polluting vehicles to drive.

Yes, I have heard that Harper does not believe co2 to be a pollutant.

[playfullfellow]

kyoto accord

http://fcpp.org/publication_detail.php?PubID=718

http://fcpp.org/publication_detail.php?PubID=718

These are just a couple of examples from Dr. Tim Ball and his research into global warming. I have heard Dr. Ball speak and seen his research and asked him questions about his research. Before hearing him speak, I was a fence sitter on the whole Kyoto thing, after seeing and hearing his research, I am now against Kyoto. The reason why is that Dr. Ball is actually very pro-enviroment but against stupid science as he calls it. Check all the evidence and then make up your own minds about which direction we should be heading. As with most things, there are more than one valid view point and we need to think about them all before we vow to spend billions of our dollars on something that may be a natural occurence.