The Nature of Evil

[cybercoma]

And I've already explained about this. Scroll back and read my reply to one of the posters (either WIP or Toadbrother). I don't want to waste time.

I wouldn't want you to waste time being inconsistent again. Let me explain something to you. Abortion are carried out the exact same way as the morning after pill up until 8 weeks. The woman is given medication that forces her to shed the contents of her uterus. I guess you're ok with that method. So it would seem you're already with abortion up until 8 weeks.

After that a woman must have a surgical abortion. After 12 weeks, surgical abortions are actually quite rare and typically only done if the woman's life is in serious danger. Given your positions on these things, it seems that you're ok with abortion, so long as it doesn't happen between weeks 8 and 12. So out of the 36 some odd weeks that a woman spends pregnant, you're against abortion for 4 weeks. Got it.

[betsy]

I must be missing something from your post....because that seems so straight forward to me.

I don't know what circular logic you mean. Can you please explain how it is circular to you?

I guess Jonsa will not explain.

[WIP]

Of course the left is expected to do the heavy promotion! After all, whose idea was it to bring about birth control anyway? That's your baby. You promote it!

Why would you expect Christian Churches to promote it???

Birth control runs against most Christians' belief, since it encourages promiscuity! Abstinence is what most, if not all Christian Churches advocates, and indeed, it is a method of birth control. A natural method of birth control.

And if a liberal position on sexuality that promotes the teaching of birth control information leads to societies that have fewer teen pregnancies, lower STD rates, and even fewer abortions than the conservative abstinence-only states (which they do btw) then what does that tell you about the wisdom of trying to force rigid rules and standards of behaviour on people? I could also show you stats that consistently demonstrate that the most religious states have the highest divorce rates, and liberal states like Massachusetts have the lowest! If a standard, such as expecting horny teenagers to behave like priests and nuns until they get married in their mid-twenties, is unattainable for the vast majority of people, it may as well not be there and is apparently a source of harm in itself. There was a recent study which identified Utah as the state with the highest consumption rates of internet porn pay sites. I'm thinking that all of the bottled up obsession created by sexual abstinence demands has a little something to do with their high porn consumption. A more relaxed attitude about sex would be more helpful.

What's stopping the left from doing a heavy promotion in those places??? If the left was able to persuade millions of people in western societies to ignore what the Christian Churches preach in their pulpits, surely you can do the same in other countries.

Here's the situation! Back in the 70's, there were a number of U.N. agencies that were successfully distributing birth control information in Latin America, Africa and Asia. Since that time, the Catholic Church, along with Muslim nations and U.S. Republican administrations teamed up to make efforts to defund these NGO's and push them out of many countries where they were operating. And in many third world countries, this has caused a rebound to higher birth rates that had been dropping for many years.

If we take one egregious example that the Catholic Church is responsible for: The Philippines...where the population has doubled in the last 30 years, they are already in a situation where one quarter of the adult population is working outside of the country most of the year to support their families back home. Even at that, they are within 20 years of reaching a point where they cannot feed their population. If the Philippines finds itself in a situation of mass starvation and a dying off of large numbers of people, how culpable is the Catholic Church because of their fight against birth control? What sense does it make to be worked up about the possibility that fertilized eggs do not reach human potential, when existing people are given a death sentence because of overpopulation? These are simply ethical rules that increase misery and suffering, rather than provide anything of benefit.

Hence I used the anti-smoking campaign as an example. The amount of focused energy and resources that went into this campaign, which even resulted in the trumping of private property rights, shows what a very determined left can do. How come we don't see that same determination with the promotion of condoms? Especially when you consider the inclusive benefits attached to its success - prevention of STD, controlling population explosion, food shortages - issues also dear to the left?

Except that, unlike the anti-abortion lobby, the anti-smoking campaign never sought to ban smoking...just to keep minors from buying the product, and to keep non-smokers from having to put themselves at the same health risk as smokers....so screw whatever private property rights some smokers feel they have lost!

I couldn't even ban smoking within my own family....since my wife secretly took up the habit for god-knows-why back when we started living together many years ago. Even though smoking has contributed to her present health problems, she has kept going back to it after every attempt to quit, and every warning from her doctor....so what can I do...aside from say 'take it outside...which is the point of the anti-smoking rules, not banning and criminalizing the product!

[WIP]

I want to get away from the constant drumbeat of abortion for a moment to mention an author who caught my interest when I listened to a podcast interview of him on the Dallas NPR station - KERA. On the podcast page of the program "Think", click the header "How Biology Explains Warfare & Terrorism," to hear the interview with Dr. Malcolm Potts, one of the authors of the book "Sex and War: How Biology Explains Warfare and Terrorism and Offers a Path to a Safer World.". Dr. Potts observed a lot of the worst evil that can be done while serving as a physician for Doctors Without Borders. With his non-medical training as as a research biologist, he has come to the conclusion that the worst evil is committed by "team aggression" - where small groups of young males band together to commit acts of aggression.

This is a primal behaviour that has existed right from hunter/gatherer times, and likely even pre-existed our branching off into modern humans, since team aggression is also observed in our closest primate relatives - the chimpanzees. Dr. Pott's observations are that this behaviour may come from primal urges, but that doesn't make it inevitable. Young men who have good family relationships and have a sense of purpose in their lives are not the ones who end up in street gangs. Reducing real evil is more of a matter of channeling young boys towards productive lives, rather than the direction many fear their energies will be directed towards....as cannon fodder for those who need armies to go off and fight wars....which of course are where we find the worst examples of evil and barbarism!

[betsy]

And if a liberal position on sexuality that promotes the teaching of birth control information leads to societies that have fewer teen pregnancies, lower STD rates, and even fewer abortions than the conservative abstinence-only states (which they do btw) then what does that tell you about the wisdom of trying to force rigid rules and standards of behaviour on people? I could also show you stats that consistently demonstrate that the most religious states have the highest divorce rates, and liberal states like Massachusetts have the lowest! If a standard, such as expecting horny teenagers to behave like priests and nuns until they get married in their mid-twenties, is unattainable for the vast majority of people, it may as well not be there and is apparently a source of harm in itself. There was a recent study which identified Utah as the state with the highest consumption rates of internet porn pay sites. I'm thinking that all of the bottled up obsession created by sexual abstinence demands has a little something to do with their high porn consumption. A more relaxed attitude about sex would be more helpful.

So, why don't you do an all-out promotion of your method of contraceptives? Especially the condom - since it will benefit other issues as well?

Blaming the Catholic Church is a poor excuse! People who'd listen to the Catholic Church will obviously do what the Catholic Church advocate - abstinence! The Catholic Church is doing its share. And if they choose not to - they'd go for the birth control devices!

Here's the situation! Back in the 70's, there were a number of U.N. agencies that were successfully distributing birth control information in Latin America, Africa and Asia. Since that time, the Catholic Church, along with Muslim nations and U.S. Republican administrations teamed up to make efforts to defund these NGO's and push them out of many countries where they were operating. And in many third world countries, this has caused a rebound to higher birth rates that had been dropping for many years.

If we take one egregious example that the Catholic Church is responsible for: The Philippines...where the population has doubled in the last 30 years, they are already in a situation where one quarter of the adult population is working outside of the country most of the year to support their families back home. Even at that, they are within 20 years of reaching a point where they cannot feed their population. If the Philippines finds itself in a situation of mass starvation and a dying off of large numbers of people, how culpable is the Catholic Church because of their fight against birth control? What sense does it make to be worked up about the possibility that fertilized eggs do not reach human potential, when existing people are given a death sentence because of overpopulation? These are simply ethical rules that increase misery and suffering, rather than provide anything of benefit.

That was 30 -40 years ago! We're talking NOW! We're concerned not only with unwanted pregnancy....but also the spread of various STD!

Except that, unlike the anti-abortion lobby, the anti-smoking campaign never sought to ban smoking

Really? The anti-smoking never sought to ban it? You mean the government wouldn't hear of it. Money talks.

...just to keep minors from buying the product, and to keep non-smokers from having to put themselves at the same health risk as smokers....so screw whatever private property rights some smokers feel they have lost!

That's the passion! Get that condom going to keep people from spreading the disease and risk the health of others! And best of all, human babies need not die!

So screw whatever body rights the woman ought to have after pregnancy happened. Choices to her body are abstinence, condoms, pills, other devices, morning after pills! BEFORE, not after pregnancy!

I couldn't even ban smoking within my own family....since my wife secretly took up the habit for god-knows-why back when we started living together many years ago. Even though smoking has contributed to her present health problems, she has kept going back to it after every attempt to quit, and every warning from her doctor....so what can I do...aside from say 'take it outside...which is the point of the anti-smoking rules, not banning and criminalizing the product!

That's her choice. She knows it's killing her and yet she still smokes. But smoking is different....it has an addicting effect.

I don't think abortion has an addicting effect hence there are numerous repeat-abortions happening.

Banning abortion will not eliminate abortion. There will still be those who will choose not to take any precautions (despite the various devices available), and take the risk of getting pregnant. Why should babies be the ones to pay the ultimate price?

Edited March 20, 2011 by betsy

[betsy]

Young men who have good family relationships and have a sense of purpose in their lives are not the ones who end up in street gangs.

Family is essential. Sadly it is disintegrating.

Sense of purpose in their lives - that's quite a loaded term.

[ToadBrother]

That's her choice. She knows it's killing her and yet she still smokes. But smoking is different....it has an addicting effect.

I don't think abortion has an addicting effect hence there are numerous repeat-abortions happening.

Care to cite some statistics on the number of women who have repeat abortions?

Banning abortion will not eliminate abortion. There will still be those who will choose not to take any precautions (despite the various devices available), and take the risk of getting pregnant. Why should babies be the ones to pay the ultimate price?

Because fetuses are not called babies until they're born. They don't issue birth certificates for stillbirths, remember?

And not all pregnancies occur through consenting sexual relations. You are once again intentionally lumping a lot of different circumstances under one banner.

Or perhaps you're advocating any female of reproductive age to have an IUD.

[betsy]

Care to cite some statistics on the number of women who have repeat abortions?

I did. On this thread.

Because fetuses are not called babies until they're born. They don't issue birth certificates for stillbirths, remember?

So what if there are no brith certificates! That's just a piece of paper.

Heck, I'd settle for manslaughter charges, or even negligence causing death.

Six men and six women convicted Peterson Friday of the first-degree murder of his wife, Laci, and the second-degree murder of the fetus she was carrying. The couple had planned to name their son Conner. The jury also agreed on a “special circumstance” that calls for capital punishment — namely that he killed another person — the fetus — while committing a felony — the intentional and premeditated killing of his wife.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6385208/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/

Women and doctors have not been criminally charged simply due to politics! The clout of the influential Feminist Group! And that doesn't mean these babies are not human!

And not all pregnancies occur through consenting sexual relations. You are once again intentionally lumping a lot of different circumstances under one banner.

And I've already addressed the different circumstances!

Or perhaps you're advocating any female of reproductive age to have an IUD.

Is that the only choice? After all the billions we've spent? After all these years? With all the advancement in Medicine and technology? IUD? Is that all?

Anyway Toadbrother....we seem to be going on a circular redundant argument here. I wouldn't be replying on arguments that has already been responded by me on this thread.

Edited March 20, 2011 by betsy

[ToadBrother]

I did. On this thread.

So what if there are no brith certificates! That's just a piece of paper.

That every human being born in the Western world gets.

Women and doctors have not been criminally charged simply due to politics! The clout of the influential Feminist Group! And that doesn't mean these babies are not human!

It sure clearly doesn't indicate that fetuses are persons, something that was not historically recognized by our legal system. Feminists didn't invent that fact.

Is that the only choice? After all the billions we've spent? After all these years? With all the advancement in Medicine and technology? IUD? Is that all?

I was referring to your seeming disregard for victims of rape and incest.

[betsy]

That every human being born in the Western world gets.

So what? It doesn't negate the fact that fetuses are human beings. Actually, you're saying what I'm saying - politics and influential groups can determine the status of an individual....just like Hitler and the Nazis.

I must be missing something....explain what's all this importance about a piece of paper that makes it okay to kill a human.

It sure clearly doesn't indicate that fetuses are persons, something that was not historically recognized by our legal system. Feminists didn't invent that fact.

As I said before, that goes without saying! Feminists didn't pursue abortion....not until a man by the name of Larry Lader convinced them to go through that civil rights route to get their other demands! That's the reason I brought up the waves of Feminist Movements in this topic.

Anyway, we're talking now....with all the advancement in science and technology. That's why Bernard Nathanson, one of the founders of this baby-killing spree changed his position on abortion! The invention of the ultra-sound made him see the atrocities that's being done to babies!

Furthermore, he became an activist for Pro-Life.

I was referring to your seeming disregard for victims of rape and incest.

Whether rape, or incest, or negligence....the result is the same: pregnancy.

Pregnancy doesn't choose how it came to be. That excuse is moot now....with the advancement of Science and Technology. Health risk to a mother is an exception, a matter of personal choice....since some mothers still carry the baby to full-term despite the risks to their health.

Today, that is hardly the case. Abortion is being used as a regular contraceptive. There are no accurate records for these anymore in Canada. Transparency is not there. And everyone supporting abortion seems to be content about that lack of transparency.

There is no longer any excuse. None. Nada.

Edited March 21, 2011 by betsy

[ToadBrother]

.

Today, that is hardly the case. Abortion is being used as a regular contraceptive. There are no accurate records for these anymore in Canada. Transparency is not there. And everyone supporting abortion seems to be content about that lack of transparency.

In short, you'll keep making the claim despite the lack of evidence for it. I know what we call that where I come from.

[Jonsa]

I guess Jonsa will not explain.

god is ominipotent and omniscient.

God creates the universe.

God creates heaven and all his minions.

God creates evil

God infects Lucifer with Evil.

God creates Hell.

God creates Man.

God creates free will.

God and lucifer battle for men's souls.

God knows what is going to happen. He knew that Lucifer was going to thirst for power 'cause he was so perfect and beautiful. He knew that Lucifer was going to be cast out.

He knew that Adam was going to eat the apple.

He knows what every person decision is when exercising that free will.

He toys with lucifer because he can swat him like a fly at any time, but doesn't.

He toys with his human creations creating all kinds of mysterious, illogical and tragic games to play with them.

Conclusion: God was bored and needed something to amuse himself with. Kinda like the first multiplayer video game.

[WIP]

So, why don't you do an all-out promotion of your method of contraceptives? Especially the condom - since it will benefit other issues as well?

I'm doing my part to the best of my abilities, but you are trying to shift the argument here to get away from the messy problem that all of this abstinence garbage that has accompanied campaigns against legitimate sex education programs and condom and birth control use, has made the problems worse in the nations or the local jurisdictions where abstinence-only has become the law.

Moral standards have to be realistic and attainable for the majority of people. In an age when young people are getting married later in life (if at all) insisting on abstinence until marriage is something that few will be able to hold to, and as soon as two horny teenagers with no condoms or birth control information get together, the next thing you know you've got...Bristol Palin and Levi Johnson! And among the estimated less than 10% who claim to have held to their abstinence pledge before marriage, a surprisingly large number are showing up later in divorce court...some psychologists speculate that the years obsessing about sex becomes a letdown when they do finally get married, and it just cannot possibly match their expectations. As the abstinence-only crowd ages, this would be a group worth keeping an eye on; my suspicions are that they will end up less happy and more dysfunctional than the norms.

Blaming the Catholic Church is a poor excuse! People who'd listen to the Catholic Church will obviously do what the Catholic Church advocate - abstinence! The Catholic Church is doing its share. And if they choose not to - they'd go for the birth control devices!

Most Catholics I know don't listen to whatever the priest has to say, which makes a lot of sense...why take sex advice from someone who is supposed to be lifelong celibate?

That was 30 -40 years ago! We're talking NOW! We're concerned not only with unwanted pregnancy....but also the spread of various STD!

No, this has been an ongoing problem because of the Vatican's insistence on preventing women from having control over when and how many children to have. And, when it leads to starvation because of overpopulation, then their bad advice is a prime source of evil in the world.

Really? The anti-smoking never sought to ban it? You mean the government wouldn't hear of it. Money talks.

NO, and the reason is because the anti-smoking campaign was never dominated by religion! It remained a secular and pragmatic cause throughout the 70's to the 90's to reduce the amount of smoking, make it less socially desirable, and keep it away from minors and non-smokers.

That's the passion! Get that condom going to keep people from spreading the disease and risk the health of others! And best of all, human babies need not die!

So screw whatever body rights the woman ought to have after pregnancy happened. Choices to her body are abstinence, condoms, pills, other devices, morning after pills! BEFORE, not after pregnancy!

Funny that women who live in areas where birth control and access to abortion are more freely available, there are fewer abortions, and at earlier stages in pregnancy than in those states that are going back to patriarchal standards.

[cybercoma]

I refuse to have a discussion with betsy until she begins following this:

http://unrforliberty.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Our-Discussion.jpg

[GostHacked]

I refuse to have a discussion with betsy until she begins following this:

http://unrforliberty.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Our-Discussion.jpg

Nice find, going to bookmark that one!

[cybercoma]

StumbleUpon is a glorious thing.

[betsy]

I want to get away from the constant drumbeat of abortion for a moment to mention an author who caught my interest when I listened to a podcast interview of him on the Dallas NPR station - KERA. On the podcast page of the program "Think", click the header "How Biology Explains Warfare & Terrorism," to hear the interview with Dr. Malcolm Potts, one of the authors of the book "Sex and War: How Biology Explains Warfare and Terrorism and Offers a Path to a Safer World.". Dr. Potts observed a lot of the worst evil that can be done while serving as a physician for Doctors Without Borders. With his non-medical training as as a research biologist, he has come to the conclusion that the worst evil is committed by "team aggression" - where small groups of young males band together to commit acts of aggression.

This is a primal behaviour that has existed right from hunter/gatherer times, and likely even pre-existed our branching off into modern humans, since team aggression is also observed in our closest primate relatives - the chimpanzees. Dr. Pott's observations are that this behaviour may come from primal urges, but that doesn't make it inevitable. Young men who have good family relationships and have a sense of purpose in their lives are not the ones who end up in street gangs. Reducing real evil is more of a matter of channeling young boys towards productive lives, rather than the direction many fear their energies will be directed towards....as cannon fodder for those who need armies to go off and fight wars....which of course are where we find the worst examples of evil and barbarism!

This will make a very intersting topic....wish you'd make one.

[betsy]

In short, you'll keep making the claim despite the lack of evidence for it. I know what we call that where I come from.

Don't dodge and skirt around what I pointedly asked you. Why is a piece of paper so important to you?

[betsy]

In short, you'll keep making the claim despite the lack of evidence for it. I know what we call that where I come from.

Just so to be clear, lack of evidence of what?

[betsy]

I'm doing my part to the best of my abilities, but you are trying to shift the argument here to get away from the messy problem that all of this abstinence garbage that has accompanied campaigns against legitimate sex education programs and condom and birth control use, has made the problems worse in the nations or the local jurisdictions where abstinence-only has become the law.

As I said before, you need not worry about the Catholic Church. It is doing its share in promoting abstinence. And if I'm not mistaken....already compromised with other birth control message (?).

Anyway, those who will listen to the Pope will more likely abstain....and if those Christians don't listen to the Pope, they're the ones who're more likely to use birth control devices! They'll try to avoid compounding a sinful act with the sinful act of murder!

Excluding rape, it's those who don't have a care or respect for human life....those who lives by the moment....those who put themselves before all else....those who want instant gratification....those are your problems! And they're usually the ones who abandoned God, or don't believe in God or a god.

So don't shift the accusatory finger to the Pope and his message. Refusing to address the root of all this problem is not addressing the issue. It is just going through the motion and merely indulging in the politics of faith and no-faith.

Edited March 22, 2011 by betsy

[bloodyminded]

Just so to be clear, lack of evidence of what?

That a fetus used to be considered a human being, until the feminists ruined it.

Fetuses were not considered human beings before the feminists came along.

[bloodyminded]

Excluding rape, it's those who don't have a care or respect for human life....those who lives by the moment....those who put themselves before all else....those who want instant gratification....those are your problems! And they're usually the ones who abandoned God, or don't believe in God or a god.

Do you have any evidence that the religious among us are having less premarital sex, and less abortions?

Because this is the first I've heard of this claim.

[cybercoma]

Do you have any evidence that the religious among us are having less premarital sex, and less abortions?

Because this is the first I've heard of this claim.

Allow me:

Unwed pregnant teens and 20-somethings who attend or have graduated from private religious schools are more likely to obtain abortions than their peers from public schools, according to research in the June issue of the Journal of Health and Social Behavior.

http://www.livescience.com/5476-surprising-results-abortion-religiosity.html

[cybercoma]

Oh wait... that was evidence to the contrary. My bad.

[betsy]

That a fetus used to be considered a human being, until the feminists ruined it.

Fetuses were not considered human beings before the feminists came along.

Perhaps some did not. But others did. Oviously the fetuses had some protection. Otherwise why did abortion have to be de-criminalized?

Anyway, now we know. We know that they are human.

Edited March 23, 2011 by betsy