dre Posted February 7, 2011 Report Posted February 7, 2011 (edited) There would be no shortage of eager volunteers for one way space missions, just as there were no shortage of volunteers for one-way crossings of the Atlantic. Good read thanx! I would emphasize the following as well... The origional question I answered was this... it's an enormous economic undertaking for what return value? I would argue that our intrinsic curiousity, and exploration and research done just for the purpose of exploration and research, has actually ended up yielding enormous return value even though a lot of the benefits were ancillary and not origionally intented. The space program has produced dozens of important medical treatments, importantant substances and materials, and all kinds of other spinoffs that have turned out to have tremendous tangible value. Your cordless drill uses technology developed during the Apollo program, and the ionizers that make your drinking water safe came from Apollo as well. Your household smoke detector was developed by honywell in the 70's for SkyLab. LED technology was greatly enhanced by the space shuttle program, and theres probably a dozen devices right inside your house that use it now. The digital imaging technology the doctor uses to check your wifes breasts for cancer was developed by Nasa to study the earth's atmosphere from space. These are just a few examples as well... to actually document all of the important technologies that were developed or contributed to by various space programs will take more than a post, it would take a large volume of books. Edited February 7, 2011 by dre Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Wild Bill Posted February 7, 2011 Report Posted February 7, 2011 (edited) then I would argue that there wouldn't be need to leave if we aren't in peril...it's an enormous economic undertaking for what return value? Well, we could consider what made people pioneers before. Certainly space habitation could provide lots of 'elbow room' and isolation. There are always citizens who chafe at living in too crowded an environment, with all its urban rules and restrictions. Resources are virtually unlimited. There's lots of asteroids to mine and "free" solar power. We've already learned about all the minerals available in lunar soil if we want to colonize there. In the early days we could probably make a good living with zero g manufacturing things like medical sera and ball bearings. I never knew what a big deal ball bearings were to an economy until I read how ball bearing factories were key bombing targets in WWII. Zero G ball bearings could double or triple the life of a transmission. Zero G also lets you make alloys of metals that just can't be mixed down here on the Earth's surface. Nobody knows just what these alloys could do but everyone is certain that there would be MANY profitable uses! It's hard to predict the personal choice of citizens as a whole but surely there are more than enough people who feel unfulfilled living here who would cheerfully sign up to colonize space! If I were younger I'd be gone in a heartbeat! I still might, considering that living in even a lunar gravity might add decades to my life, having reduced a huge strain on my heart and such. We've already advanced our technology that once we get living in space we can be self-sustaining and capable of expansion. A hundred years from now that may no longer be true. We will have depleted our "easy to get" resources to the point where we may not be able to afford to make the move off the planet. Or maybe not. We've hardly touched mining the sea bottoms, or even electrolysis of seawater, for that matter. I'd likely be proven wrong for sure if I made the assumption that technologies to extract resources will improve by major leaps as well. No, it really seems to be a question of will. Would we have enough people willing to leave, enough to create self-sustaining colonies? Hell, if we can get 10,000 people into a convention centre for a StarTrek Convention I think we won't lack for prospective emmigrants! Edited February 7, 2011 by Wild Bill Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
Bonam Posted February 7, 2011 Author Report Posted February 7, 2011 No, it really seems to be a question of will. Would we have enough people willing to leave, enough to create self-sustaining colonies? I don't think there's really any doubt. There are so many people that crave adventure, and what greater adventure can there be? Quote
dre Posted February 7, 2011 Report Posted February 7, 2011 I don't think there's really any doubt. There are so many people that crave adventure, and what greater adventure can there be? Im not going to any galaxy that doesnt have hawt chix and beer. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
GWiz Posted February 7, 2011 Report Posted February 7, 2011 There would be no shortage of eager volunteers for one way space missions, just as there were no shortage of volunteers for one-way crossings of the Atlantic. Oookaaay, I'm not really into long drawn out suicide missions with questionable purpose, but you are probably right... Incidentally, what "one-way" crossings of the Atlantic are you referring to? As for me I'll just wait for my fellow aliens to take my space travels with... I'm in no hurry though, after all the many years I've been here I've learned to like it here on Earth... Isn't it nice that the "science guy" and the alien on here can enjoy an interesting discussion like this? Quote There are none so blind, deaf and dumb as those that fail to recognize, understand, and promote TRUTH...- GWiz
Bonam Posted February 7, 2011 Author Report Posted February 7, 2011 Im not going to any galaxy that doesnt have hawt chix and beer. You bring em with you Oookaaay, I'm not really into long drawn out suicide missions with questionable purpose, but you are probably right How is it a suicide? You go to some other planet, land there, and spend the rest of your life building a new civilization there. You live out your life, just in a different place. Incidentally, what "one-way" crossings of the Atlantic are you referring to? Pretty much the majority of crossings throughout the 16th and 17th century or so, and extending well into the 18th? Few of the people coming here could be certain they could ever get transport back to Europe, particularly among those who were poor immigrants who spent most of what they had to make the journey. This is the same situation for travel to other planets... they can't be sure that they will be able to come back, but realistically, if they succeed, two-way travel will become possible in their future. Quote
GWiz Posted February 8, 2011 Report Posted February 8, 2011 You bring em with you How is it a suicide? You go to some other planet, land there, and spend the rest of your life building a new civilization there. You live out your life, just in a different place. Pretty much the majority of crossings throughout the 16th and 17th century or so, and extending well into the 18th? Few of the people coming here could be certain they could ever get transport back to Europe, particularly among those who were poor immigrants who spent most of what they had to make the journey. This is the same situation for travel to other planets... they can't be sure that they will be able to come back, but realistically, if they succeed, two-way travel will become possible in their future. You know my friend I might be kinda inclined to agree with you IF we were talking about or better yet seeing a "first step" permanent settlement on Earth's moon to start further exploration from... No such luck... Quote There are none so blind, deaf and dumb as those that fail to recognize, understand, and promote TRUTH...- GWiz
Bonam Posted February 8, 2011 Author Report Posted February 8, 2011 You know my friend I might be kinda inclined to agree with you IF we were talking about or better yet seeing a "first step" permanent settlement on Earth's moon to start further exploration from... No such luck... Oh we've been talking about it plenty but the funding never materialized for it on the NASA side. Not surprising given the economic slump. But the economy will get stronger again, and in any case private enterprise is making big progress in space technology even if national agencies are stalling. See SpaceX for example, they have achieved a lot very quickly, and its founder is a multi-billionaire space exploration enthusiast. Quote
GWiz Posted February 8, 2011 Report Posted February 8, 2011 Oh we've been talking about it plenty but the funding never materialized for it on the NASA side. Not surprising given the economic slump. But the economy will get stronger again, and in any case private enterprise is making big progress in space technology even if national agencies are stalling. See SpaceX for example, they have achieved a lot very quickly, and its founder is a multi-billionaire space exploration enthusiast. Good point... Billionaires In Space Burt Rutan and Richard Branson Want You to Hit Space in High Style http://www.wired.com/science/space/magazine/15-06/ff_space_virgin You'd Look Sweet Upon the Seat of a Spaceship Built for Two http://www.wired.com/science/space/news/2008/03/xcor Some interesting reading... However, I'm afraid you're still in the embrio stage rather than the steping onto extraterrestrial soil stage which is some considerable TIME away (if ever) for humanity... One has to first get ones WHOLE HOUSE (Earth) in order, which I see little evidence of happening, before mankind can foray into the unknown... “Space...the final frontier. These are the voyages of the Starship Enterprise, its five-year mission ....to explore strange new worlds ...to seek out new life and new civilizations ...to boldly go where no man has gone before.” — Gene Roddenberry (August 10, 1966) Quote There are none so blind, deaf and dumb as those that fail to recognize, understand, and promote TRUTH...- GWiz
Shwa Posted February 8, 2011 Report Posted February 8, 2011 The recent unifying theory that some scientists claim to have worked out, makes folding space a real possibility. Mathematically now it can be done. I think I heard it on a cbc podcast a couple weeks ago. This is the sort of thing I was waiting to hear. Now all we need is some Melange, the spice from the Dune planet Arrakis, a couple of Guild Navigators and we are there! Quote
Wild Bill Posted February 8, 2011 Report Posted February 8, 2011 Ahhh, yes, but would you want to stay there? Hey, anything would be better than downtown Hamilton! Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
wyly Posted February 9, 2011 Report Posted February 9, 2011 You know my friend I might be kinda inclined to agree with you IF we were talking about or better yet seeing a "first step" permanent settlement on Earth's moon to start further exploration from... No such luck... if that first trip is a one-way journey without knowledge that there is a habitable planet at the end of the journey you won't get any volunteers...it could well be a death sentence... I'll stay here thanks, bon voyage! Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
GWiz Posted February 9, 2011 Report Posted February 9, 2011 if that first trip is a one-way journey without knowledge that there is a habitable planet at the end of the journey you won't get any volunteers... it could well be a death sentence... I'll stay here thanks, bon voyage! Your intelligence does you credit... Quote There are none so blind, deaf and dumb as those that fail to recognize, understand, and promote TRUTH...- GWiz
GWiz Posted February 9, 2011 Report Posted February 9, 2011 Hey, anything would be better than downtown Hamilton! Hmmm, I'll have to ponder that, I'll have to defer to your assessment of the situation... Quote There are none so blind, deaf and dumb as those that fail to recognize, understand, and promote TRUTH...- GWiz
Bonam Posted February 9, 2011 Author Report Posted February 9, 2011 if that first trip is a one-way journey without knowledge that there is a habitable planet at the end of the journey you won't get any volunteers... it could well be a death sentence... I'll stay here thanks, bon voyage! Wtf kind of statement is this? Of course you'd know what's at the other end before you send any people. We have telescopes, robotic probes, etc. Quote
GWiz Posted February 9, 2011 Report Posted February 9, 2011 Wtf kind of statement is this? Of course you'd know what's at the other end before you send any people. We have telescopes, robotic probes, etc. Common Bonam, be realistic here, probes and telescopes have great limitations when it comes to analysing a planet that can't be "seen" but only speculated about by advanced mathematics... Even the ones we can "see" in our own solar system, the moon, and Mars, which we have "touched" via probes and telescopes, what do we really know about them? We don't even know "everything" about Earth, with hundreds of new lifeforms constantly being discovered... Someday in the distant future, if mankind somehow manages to survive long enough, perhaps, but it's a very, very long TIME away... Quote There are none so blind, deaf and dumb as those that fail to recognize, understand, and promote TRUTH...- GWiz
wyly Posted February 9, 2011 Report Posted February 9, 2011 Common Bonam, be realistic here, probes and telescopes have great limitations when it comes to analysing a planet that can't be "seen" but only speculated about by advanced mathematics... Even the ones we can "see" in our own solar system, the moon, and Mars, which we have "touched" via probes and telescopes, what do we really know about them? We don't even know "everything" about Earth, with hundreds of new lifeforms constantly being discovered... alien microbes could kill all within days, as could undetected gases, a common alien insect type life form quite harmless in it's own environment could be deadly to us, as could be the plants...the only way verify would be a two way manned mission because no one but an suicidal idiot will volunteer for a one way trip... Someday in the distant future, if mankind somehow manages to survive long enough, perhaps, but it's a very, very long TIME away...very, very, very, very ,very, very long time...probably never...we'll have done great just to explore our own solar system... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
Sir Bandelot Posted February 9, 2011 Report Posted February 9, 2011 no one but an suicidal idiot will volunteer for a one way trip. Life is a one-way trip. Quote
wyly Posted February 9, 2011 Report Posted February 9, 2011 Life is a one-way trip.one which most of us aren't in a hurry to see the premature end of...potentially years if not decades locked in spaceship(likely going insane) only to die with in a few days of arriving at the destination, or finding out once you've arrived you can't leave the ship because the environment is to hostile so you face starvation because you can't return home... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
Sir Bandelot Posted February 9, 2011 Report Posted February 9, 2011 Point is, there's people who are willing to risk their lives to do great things, all the time. Not everyone, of course. Some would rather prefer to sit behind their keyboard and hurl slander toward others. Now that's accomplishment... Quote
wyly Posted February 9, 2011 Report Posted February 9, 2011 Point is, there's people who are willing to risk their lives to do great things, all the time. Not everyone, of course. Some would rather prefer to sit behind their keyboard and hurl slander toward others. Now that's accomplishment...people risk their lives if they believe they will survive...those who would be trusted to control a sophisticated piece of machinery like a space ship are not suicidal types...and there is no comparison to be made with inter-solar space travel and any other form of risk we're familiar with, this would be a live or die mission with nothing in between and it's optional there is no compelling reason to take the risk... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
GWiz Posted February 9, 2011 Report Posted February 9, 2011 alien microbes could kill all within days, as could undetected gases, a common alien insect type life form quite harmless in it's own environment could be deadly to us, as could be the plants...the only way verify would be a two way manned mission because no one but an suicidal idiot will volunteer for a one way trip... very, very, very, very ,very, very long time...probably never...we'll have done great just to explore our own solar system... In the year 2011 the combined power of all the computing power available on earth could not even make the calculation to find/reach/orbit any of the planets that are mention in the heading of this thread... No orbit patern can be decerned, no density, nothing, only the possibility of what is throwing a certain sized shadow against the backdrop of a distant star, maybe... Quote There are none so blind, deaf and dumb as those that fail to recognize, understand, and promote TRUTH...- GWiz
Bonam Posted February 9, 2011 Author Report Posted February 9, 2011 In the year 2011 the combined power of all the computing power available on earth could not even make the calculation to find/reach/orbit any of the planets that are mention in the heading of this thread... No orbit patern can be decerned, no density, nothing, only the possibility of what is throwing a certain sized shadow against the backdrop of a distant star, maybe... Umm, on the contrary, that's the easy part. We know the star's mass, the orbital period of the planet, and the radius of the planet. That tells us the planet's mass and thus its average density. Calculating a trajectory that takes a spacecraft from the solar system to one of these other stars and enters an orbit around one of these planets would be a relatively simple matter, made only slightly more complicated if the spacecraft can travel fast enough to make it necessary to include relativistic effects. I can write a MATLAB script to do it on my laptop in about an afternoon of coding and it'd take about 10 milliseconds to compute. This problem certainly has many hard parts, biggest among them being propulsion and power systems, but figuring out the orbital mechanics and the needed spacecraft trajectories isn't one of them. Quote
GostHacked Posted February 9, 2011 Report Posted February 9, 2011 There would be no shortage of eager volunteers for one way space missions, just as there were no shortage of volunteers for one-way crossings of the Atlantic. I'd seriously consider volunteering. Even if that means I die on the way there or through some mishap. Quote
Wild Bill Posted February 9, 2011 Report Posted February 9, 2011 (edited) In the year 2011 the combined power of all the computing power available on earth could not even make the calculation to find/reach/orbit any of the planets that are mention in the heading of this thread... No orbit patern can be decerned, no density, nothing, only the possibility of what is throwing a certain sized shadow against the backdrop of a distant star, maybe... Huh??? GWiz, the problem is not finding the planet. Planets orbit stars and stars are so far away that if you've solved the problem of reaching the star then matching orbits with a particular planet is trivial! We already have technology that can tell us the approximate mass of a planet (your 'shadows') and its approximate distance from its star. That tells us if it's in the "Goldilocks Zone", where it orbits not too far or too close to its Sun. This means not too cold and not too hot for liquid water, which is the basis for our type of life. Of course, we still can't get a clear picture but there are LOTS of other options! First off, an unmanned probe could go there and return with more accurate information. Roundtrip, that could take 20 or 30 years with propulsion systems only a bit more advanced than what we have right now. With present technology it might take 100 years. I admit that might be too long for most politicians to care to support. Or, if we have "hibernation" techniques" we might be able to send a ship on a course intending to check out more than one planetary system, only stopping at one that looks good enough for our style of life to colonize. However, those scifi writers you've dismissed so quickly before have long ago moved past these ideas. They now ask the question, why colonize another planet at all? It would be far easier and cheaper to mine asteroids for materials. You can smelt the metals in them with free solar power! Hollow out an asteroid a few miles in diameter and set it spinning. The centrifugal force of the spin will act like gravity to those on the inner wall. Living in constant zero g seems to be bad for bones and pregnant women so some gravity would be a good idea. You just don't need nearly as much as we have on Earth! 1/10 G is enough to keep coffee in your mug. The reduced stress on your back and your heart however would mean decades more to your life, at least. There's not much you can do on a planet that you couldn't do on a space habitat. The amount of asteroid material to be mined is GINORMOUS! For practical purposes, we would never run out for thousands and thousands of years. With free sunlight and materials colonists would be self-sufficient. So again, why the rush to colonize planets? Give us a couple of hundred years developing space habitations and industry and it won't be such a big step to go check out planets orbiting other stars. Edited February 9, 2011 by Wild Bill Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
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