American (Canadian) - Israeli Special Relationship

[bud]

when a lobby group has success in putting another country's agenda above america's and in turn, ends up hurting americans' safety and security, then it's safe to say that it's a problem.

let us go down the list of some of the things that are wrong with having a lobby group like AIPAC:

here is a report by two self-hating jewish professors

Mearsheimer and Walt argue that "No lobby has managed to divert U.S. foreign policy as far from what the American national interest would otherwise suggest, while simultaneously convincing Americans that U.S. and Israeli interests are essentially identical"

AIPAC's agenda puts America's security at risk:

Petraeus: Israel is putting American lives at risk

AIPAC spies for a foreign country:

At the heart of the investigation are two people who work at The American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC), a powerful pro-Israel lobby in Washington. The FBI investigation, headed up by Dave Szady, has involved wiretaps, undercover surveillance and photography that CBS News was told document the passing of classified information from the mole, to the men at AIPAC, and on to the Israelis.

so go on and deny the problem and continue declaring that this is all okay. the only americans who would be okay with something like that have more loyalty towards israel and this loyalty trumps america's security.

Edited February 19, 2011 by bud

[bush_cheney2004]

....so go on and deny the problem and continue declaring that this is all okay. the only americans who would be okay with something like that have more loyalty towards israel and this loyalty trumps america's security.

Why are you so worried about America's security? This is just another way to bash Israel. The Millennium Bomber came from Canada, not Israel!

[bud]

Why are you so worried about America's security? This is just another way to bash Israel. The Millennium Bomber came from Canada, not Israel!

america's foreign policy effect the whole world.

now go on and be a good citizen and pay more money to israel instead of fixing your roads.

[bush_cheney2004]

america's foreign policy effect the whole world.

But there is nothing you can do about that except pick on Israel from Canada..of all {complicit} places?

now go on and be a good citizen and pay more money to israel instead of fixing your roads.

Got better roads than in Canada...frost heave is a bitch!

[bush_cheney2004]

Nov. 17, 1999:

Ressam flies to Vancouver to gather materials and make explosives. He meets with a key accomplice, another Algerian refugee named Abdelmajid Dahoumane. The two men rent a motel room and set up a crude bomb-making factory.

[Jonsa]

Bud doesn't think anything of the kind. I don't know that I'd recommend your joining in the radical extremsists here who insinuate anti-semitism too promiscuously every time Israel is the topic.

I should add that I don't agree with the "too powerful Israeli lobby" thesis. Personally, I believe that it tries to exonerate the United States (and by extension this monolithic Jesus called "Western democracy") by assuming (and this is a recurring theme, especially by liberals) that the US is intrinsically a "righteous" and "moral" foreign policy force, continual thwarted by outside influence steering it from its "correct" path.

My views of Israel are realistic in that it is neither all good nor all bad. It has its warts like every other place and its people seem to behave like people everywhere else. I do know an anti=semite when I see one, but a critic of Israel is not necessarily the same thing and most often isn't.

I think that US foreign policy is intrinsically righteous and moral. I also think it is continually thwarted by outside influences. I also think it is continually thwarted by internal influences that can't understand a cultural difference if it hit them in the head.

[bud]

Nov. 17, 1999:

Ressam flies to Vancouver to gather materials and make explosives. He meets with a key accomplice, another Algerian refugee named Abdelmajid Dahoumane. The two men rent a motel room and set up a crude bomb-making factory.

lol. there you go again, for some bizarre reason, mentioning something about canada that is irrelevant to the topic.

what's your angle buddy? what does that have to do with anything?

[bush_cheney2004]

lol. there you go again, for some bizarre reason, mentioning something about canada that is irrelevant to the topic.

It's relevant to our special relationship with Israel. LOL!

what's your angle buddy? what does that have to do with anything?

About as much as your anti-Israeli rants from Vancouver have to do with anything. What has Israel ever done to you?

[JB Globe]

If only you knew what you were talking about.

The US and Israel regularly conduct war games. In these games they regularly practice integration of Command and control across all military disciplines. Israel could easily "host" the US 6th fleet, or any number of USAF wings and could immediately deploy a couple of divisions of Abrams.

Only until we don't let them expand their commercial airline operations in Canada.

Thanks for jumping in to nitpick.

Care to pick up where JBG has ran off from? . . .

The question is: how is it in Canada's economic, political, or strategic interest to support Israel to the degree which the Harper government does? A degree which is far beyond the support we give any other allied nation?

I could also ask - how is it in Israel's interest for foreign powers to support a highly politicized foreign policy that benefits one side of the Israeli political spectrum at the expense of the nation's future as a Jewish democracy? . . . But that's a whole different post.

Edited February 22, 2011 by JB Globe

[jbg]

Nov. 17, 1999:

Ressam flies to Vancouver to gather materials and make explosives. He meets with a key accomplice, another Algerian refugee named Abdelmajid Dahoumane. The two men rent a motel room and set up a crude bomb-making factory.

lol. there you go again, for some bizarre reason, mentioning something about canada that is irrelevant to the topic.

what's your angle buddy? what does that have to do with anything?

The "angle" is that much terrorist activity, by necessity, is hatched in Western countries close to targets such as the U.S. or with easy access to Israel.

[Jonsa]

Thanks for jumping in to nitpick.

No that wasn't a nitpick. It was a response to a grossly incorrect statement you made.

Care to pick up where JBG has ran off from? . . .

The question is: how is it in Canada's economic, political, or strategic interest to support Israel to the degree which the Harper government does? A degree which is far beyond the support we give any other allied nation?

I don't know, I think we give more support to allies like the US and Britain. We give lots of other countries free passses like Saudi Arabia and China. Kinda dumb discussion tho.

I could also ask - how is it in Israel's interest for foreign powers to support a highly politicized foreign policy that benefits one side of the Israeli political spectrum at the expense of the nation's future as a Jewish democracy? . . . But that's a whole different post.

I have no idea what you mean. Why don't you start another post and explain this one.

[Rue]

My views of Israel are realistic in that it is neither all good nor all bad. It has its warts like every other place and its people seem to behave like people everywhere else. I do know an anti=semite when I see one, but a critic of Israel is not necessarily the same thing and most often isn't.

I think that US foreign policy is intrinsically righteous and moral. I also think it is continually thwarted by outside influences. I also think it is continually thwarted by internal influences that can't understand a cultural difference if it hit them in the head.

Well if you are suggesting Bob has warts I don't know I have never seen him in a shower, and probably don't want to.

Criticizing Israeli state policies in itself would not be anti-semitic. Using references that demonize all Jews or makes generalizations about all Jews could be. Making sweeping generalizations about all Zionists or all Israelis could also be anti-semitic if it engaged in references inter-changing the word jew for Israeli or Zionist as many do.

In fact I never fail to read the criticism that starts off directed at Israel but soon engages in references negating all Jews and then justifying such anti-semitic practice saying since Israel is a Jewish state its o.k. to refer to Israelis as Jews and make sweeping generalizations about the jewish religion and then pronounce those myths about Judaism to claim that is what Israel stands for or that is what Zionism stands for.

In fact its rare to find people who discipline themselves into avoiding anti-Jewish references when criticizing Israel not to say it can't be done and isn't done on this forum. I know many who do but others who do not. Sometimes I think its intentional bigotry other times quite unintended and caused by ignorance and confusion as to how to define the Jewish collective identity which is confusing since its a bit religious, a but cultural, a bit ethnic, a bit national. Its got many components and in a world where people want simplistic black and white sound bites they often are too lazy to differentiate and understand it. Then again they do the same thing exactly with Arabs, Muslims and Palestinians inter-mixing all three definitions incorrectly to make sweeping negative generalizations.

Here's the point though. US foreign policy like any other nation's foreign policy is based on putting its financial interests first. This naive notion Bud has that it spends money on Israel before it spends it on its own people is just intellectually insulting. The US would not have a relationship with Israel if it was not beneficial to it. To suggest all of the US administration and congress are a bunch of fools controlled by Jews or Israelis or both to take money from road projects and send it to Israeli is precisely the kind of simplistic stereotype that incites anti-semitism-this notion that Jews and Israelis unfairly suck money out of the US and prejudice its people, so Israel can get fat.

Its an insulting proposition based on the anti-semitic myth that Jews and Israelis conspire while gentiles sit around like retards and are leeched of their blood by us.

The US formed an alliance with Israel for two basic reasons. One because Elenor Roosevelt for 3 years single handedly worked to save Jews from the holocaust and fought for a homeland. She took on the entire US establishment including her husband then Truman and the entire congress who were more concerned about not alienating

Saudi Arabia and its oil. She worked grass roots. Her single handed devotion is the major reason Israel can exist and she was supported by average Americans the same ones who still support Israel not because they are fools or brainwashed by bagels but because they are a genuine friend who saw Jews as a people who have a right to a homeland. Over the years Israel also morphed into a second parallel relationship with the U.S. as a counter-weight to communism in the Middle East and anti American terrorist interests and became a trusted ally in both regards and as a military tester and researcher for its products which then as a result of that work could be completed and sold to other countries for billions.

The US government has provided its military industrial complex huge amounts of tax rebates for trading in Israel which in turn have kept hundreds of thousands of Americans employed and enabled the US to sell military technology in the trillions to many countries.

So it is absolutely assinine to say the US has to go without roads because of the financial arrangements it made with Israel. Israel is now paying back all its loans with interest and the tax benefits and profits generated from the trade with Israel has far outweighed any money sent to Israel.

Anyone who takes the time to understand the relationship could see that. However if we want to operate in simplistic black and white concepts where we ignore how the economy and trade works and ignore it-well I suppose we will continue to get the Buds of the world promoting the Israel as leech parasite myth which is nothing more than a recycling of the Jew as vermon on the world myth.

Eisenhower had it right. He warned the US economy being swallowed by the military industrial complex would dominate its foreign policy needs and he was right and it is the exact same case for France, the UK, China as well, who just also happen to be permanent members of the UN security council as well as the US.

In fact all one has to do is look at the no.1 economic activity of all European nations and they will see it is the export of military weapons.

Even Canada relies heavily on military trade.

If anything by the way it is we Canadians who play at being righteous with our foreign policy.We want the whole world to see us as nice fair people. We have a refugee policy that screams of righteousness and saving the world while it is nothing more then an apperatus to let in cheap labour. If we were serious about refugees we would not have created this fake definition that pretends they are not economic refugees.

Edited February 23, 2011 by Rue

[Jonsa]

However if we want to operate in simplistic black and white concepts where we ignore how the economy and trade works and ignore it-well I suppose we will continue to get the Buds of the world promoting the Israel as leech parasite myth which is nothing more than a recycling of the Jew as vermon on the world myth.

What I find amusing about this kind of nonsense is how these conspiracy nuts believe that they and their "goy" governments are so stupid. The corollory of course is how smart the jews are. Maybe they are just jealous of anyone with IQ's greater than 98.

Eisenhower had it right. He warned the US economy being swallowed by the military industrial complex would dominate its foreign policy needs and he was right and it is the exact same case for France, the UK, China as well, who just also happen to be permanent members of the UN security council as well as the US.

In fact all one has to do is look at the no.1 economic activity of all European nations and they will see it is the export of military weapons.

Even Canada relies heavily on military trade.

For the sake of accuracy.

Arms exports are a nice little chunk of dough, but no where close to number one in Europe where total arms exports amounted to somewhat less than 2% (c.<$20 billion)of total exports ($1.9 trillion).

And I wouldn't describe a Canadian arms export market of $177 million last year as major market.

[scouterjim]

I am starting this post with quote from part of a post in the Egypt thread. Bob's right - it deserves its own thread.

There are many things that America, Canada, Australia and Israel have in common that no other countries have. They have strikingly similar early histories. All are nations built by pioneers, where the State had a role, albeit minor, in their development. While in Canada the Mounties often arrived ahead of the settlers, by and large, in all of these countries, groups of settlers had to sink or swim on their own. In the case of America, Canada, and Australia, mother England (and in the U.S. the national capital) was faraway, and had little concern with the day-to-day realities of frontier life. In Israel, the colonial government was an outright hindrance.

Also, all have in common being part of the English-speaking world. America, Canada, Australia and Israel have in common a tradition of an open economy based largely on trade with the rest of the world. That seafaring and eventually trading tradition has a drastic impact on culture. These countries look outward, whereas most other countries in the world look inward.

America, Canada, Australia and Israel have in common a broad freedom of religion. There are varying degrees of government involvement in religion but all allow free religious practice.

In short, it is natural that these countries be allies among themselves and, in differing degrees, with Great Britain.

The U.S.- Israel relationship is, to be sure, more special. Each country each possesses about 1/3 of the world's Jews. Jews have a greater imprint on these countries than any others. So yes, there is a very special relationship.

well, given the veto used by the US in the UN on the 19th regarding settlement in the West Bank area, can it still be said that the US does not pander to Israel? The settlements are illegal, but the US blocked any call by the UN for Israel to evacuate them. Once again, the US bends to the will of her owner.

[Jonsa]

well, given the veto used by the US in the UN on the 19th regarding settlement in the West Bank area, can it still be said that the US does not pander to Israel? The settlements are illegal, but the US blocked any call by the UN for Israel to evacuate them. Once again, the US bends to the will of her owner.

That's a good one.

Couldn't possibly be that the US doesn't think that the UN Security Council is the place to resolve anything when it comes to Israeli/Palestinian issue. Nah, afterall the UN is as fair and balanced as Fox News.

OTOH, the current US administration has stated rather clearly that the settlements are "illegitimate" and direct talks between the concerned parties is the only way to resolve the issue.

Then again history has demonstrated to us that in this instance direct talks are a great way of keeping a festering wound festering.

But, you never can tell with dem joos, I read somewheres that they have a master plan for taking over the entire world!!! I even saw a movie called the hebrew hammer and they showed a meeting of these guys. Very scary.

[scouterjim]

That's a good one.

Couldn't possibly be that the US doesn't think that the UN Security Council is the place to resolve anything when it comes to Israeli/Palestinian issue. Nah, afterall the UN is as fair and balanced as Fox News.

OTOH, the current US administration has stated rather clearly that the settlements are "illegitimate" and direct talks between the concerned parties is the only way to resolve the issue.

Then again history has demonstrated to us that in this instance direct talks are a great way of keeping a festering wound festering.

But, you never can tell with dem joos, I read somewheres that they have a master plan for taking over the entire world!!! I even saw a movie called the hebrew hammer and they showed a meeting of these guys. Very scary.

The US has bowed to Israel since 1956.

[Jonsa]

The US has bowed to Israel since 1956.

Why only since 1956?

[bud]

the u.s. just vetoed another resolution. all 14 security council members backed the resolution and the u.s. came out with another expected veto.

the u.s. political system and its foreign policy is heavily influenced by israel. anyone who says otherwise is either lying or has no clue.

i'm still waiting to hear from someone, anyone, about the former AIPAC president and his comments in regards to the influence AIPAC/israel has over american politicians.

the only person who has responded to it was the resident, jewish settler who called the former AIPAC head's comments, "imagined influence".

[scouterjim]

Why only since 1956?

After the 1956 Suez campaign by France, the UK aand Israel, Israeli influence in the US grew. It may have been part of a deal by the Eisenhower admin made with israel to get the Israelis to withdraw fron the Sinai. Whether that is the case, I cannot say, but Israeli influence in the US took off in an incredible manner.

[Jonsa]

the u.s. just vetoed another resolution. all 14 security council members backed the resolution and the u.s. came out with another expected veto.

the u.s. political system and its foreign policy is heavily influenced by israel. anyone who says otherwise is either lying or has no clue.

I'd like to know exactly how a "political system" can be "heavily influenced" by any third party.

As for US foreign policy being influenced by the needs of an important strategic ally in a volatile region of international strategic importance - Gee I'm shocked. I had no clue....

i'm still waiting to hear from someone, anyone, about the former AIPAC president and his comments in regards to the influence AIPAC/israel has over american politicians.

the only person who has responded to it was the resident, jewish settler who called the former AIPAC head's comments, "imagined influence".

Ego is a terrible thing ain't it.

I don't know what biz your in, but I know that when I closed a big deal with bonus margins I liked to crow a little, might even have overstated my influence and salesmanship a tad.

But I'm sure the much more sinister explanation is correct like it always is.

[Rue]

The US has bowed to Israel since 1956.

Ooops there it is. Yah scrapes and bows. Eisenhower sure scraped and bowed over the Suez Canal crisis. Yah don't tell me you have one of them neat scarves with the black checkers and think its cool to wear.

Its a tired cliche. Do better then that. What next the Zionism is Racism mantra, the Jew banker world conspiracy control the media cliche?

How original.

Just so you know-it's our bagels.

We use our bagels to control Bush Chaney. He repeats whatever I want him to on this forum because he is a salivating idiot like all Americans. I throw him a bagel and he says thinks like "oy" and "my back hurts" just like a Zionist.

Edited February 24, 2011 by Rue

[Jonsa]

the Jew banker world conspiracy control the media cliche?

Cliche?? You obviously haven't seen the "Hebrew Hammer", in a scene that will no doubt schock you, cameras were let into a meeting of this diabolical cabal. It was frightening to say the least.

Just so you know-it's our bagels.

We use our bagels to control Bush Chaney. He repeats whatever I want him to on this forum because he is a salivating idiot like all Americans. I throw him a bagel and he says thinks like "oy" and "my back hurts" just like a Zionist.

And here I thought it was the lox and gefilte fish.

Silly me.

[JB Globe]

I don't know, I think we give more support to allies like the US and Britain. We give lots of other countries free passses like Saudi Arabia and China. Kinda dumb discussion tho.

When has Canada ever been one of three or less countries in the world voting against a resolution against any of those countries?

Canada does not unconditionally back up other nations who are in violation of international law for over 40 years.

Canada goes to bat for Israel to an extent we do not do so for any other nation.

And my point is that I don't see how this benefits us, and frankly I think it harms our international reputation, all in the name of very short-sighted vote grabbing at home.

I think Canada should treat Israel as it does the US or UK - which is to say that we believe either country is conducting foreign policy in a way that violates international law, we should express our disagreement, like we did for the Iraq War.

I have no idea what you mean. Why don't you start another post and explain this one.

I don't have the time to manage dozens of different discussion that would come from a post like that, so unlike JBG I won't start what I can't finish.

My basic point on that is this: friends don't enable friends engage in self-destructive behaviour. That's what Canada is doing by rubber-stamping everything the Netanyahu government does. Israel isn't made stronger by colonizing land that's supposed to belong to someone else, and by placing Jews in the middle of towns populated by people who didn't like them to begin with, but hate them even more for colonizing their land. I don't think you can make the case that this helps Israel become more secure.

I don't understand how it's in Israel's interest to be engaging in a foreign policy which decreases it's international reputation, and even it's reputation among Jews. Most Jews dont' live in Israel, and aren't politically-conservative or orthodox, and therefor aren't Netanyahu supporters. American Jewish opinion of Israel has been declining steadily for decades, and it's because of things like the occupation.

I can't see how any of this is in Israel's interest

[bud]

I'd like to know exactly how a "political system" can be "heavily influenced" by any third party.

don't play stupid. here is some truth that you should consider before denying:

Steiner resignation

In 1992, AIPAC president David Steiner was forced to resign after he was recorded boasting about his political influence in obtaining aid for Israel. Steiner also claimed that he had met with (then Bush U.S. Secretary of State) Jim Baker and I cut a deal with him. I got, besides the $3 billion, you know they're looking for the Jewish votes, and I'll tell him whatever he wants to hear ... Besides the $10 billion in loan guarantees which was a fabulous thing, $3 billion in foreign, in military aid, and I got almost a billion dollars in other goodies that people don't even know about.

Steiner also claimed to be "negotiating" with the incoming Clinton administration over who Clinton would appoint as Secretary of State and Secretary of the National Security Agency. Steiner stated that AIPAC had "a dozen people in [the Clinton] campaign, in the headquarters... in Little Rock, and they're all going to get big jobs."[31]

NY real estate developer Haim Katz told The Washington Times that he taped the conversation because "as someone Jewish, I am concerned when a small group has a disproportionate power. I think that hurts everyone, including Jews. If David Steiner wants to talk about the incredible, disproportionate clout AIPAC has, the public should know about it."[32]

As for US foreign policy being influenced by the needs of an important strategic ally in a volatile region of international strategic importance - Gee I'm shocked. I had no clue....

at the expense of america's security and the lives of americans? gee, i had no clue that this was okay in some people's world.

Ego is a terrible thing ain't it.

I don't know what biz your in, but I know that when I closed a big deal with bonus margins I liked to crow a little, might even have overstated my influence and salesmanship a tad.

But I'm sure the much more sinister explanation is correct like it always is.

there was no overstating as everything he said was happening and happened.

you can pretend that the influence the israeli lobby has over the american politicians is nothing but anyone who isn't here with pompom's cheering for his tribe, would disagree.

besides the information from the former head of AIPAC there are also the numerous AIPAC or AIPAC connected spies who have been charged with espionage. i guess a foreign backed lobby group spying for another country is okay in your books as well.

[bush_cheney2004]

at the expense of america's security and the lives of americans? gee, i had no clue that this was okay in some people's world.

Yes..."america's security" is not a zero sum gain. Try to understand that from outside your hardened anti-Israeli perspective.

you can pretend that the influence the israeli lobby has over the american politicians is nothing but anyone who isn't here with pompom's cheering for his tribe, would disagree.

Even if that were true...so what? Should we kick out all the Canadian lobbyists too? They outnumber Israel's.

besides the information from the former head of AIPAC there are also the numerous AIPAC or AIPAC connected spies who have been charged with espionage. i guess a foreign backed lobby group spying for another country is okay in your books as well.

Yep....spying is just part of the deal. You may not beleive this, but Americans actually spy on other countries too, including Israel. WhooDa Thunk It!