jbg Posted January 31, 2011 Report Posted January 31, 2011 The relationship between America and Israel runs deeper than simply through the affinity of one democracy to another. It's hardly as simple as you're making it out to be. We can talk about the special American-Israeli relationship and its components (cultural, strategic, economic) in another thread. That might be good for you, because you don't seem to know anything about it.I am starting this post with quote from part of a post in the Egypt thread. Bob's right - it deserves its own thread.There are many things that America, Canada, Australia and Israel have in common that no other countries have. They have strikingly similar early histories. All are nations built by pioneers, where the State had a role, albeit minor, in their development. While in Canada the Mounties often arrived ahead of the settlers, by and large, in all of these countries, groups of settlers had to sink or swim on their own. In the case of America, Canada, and Australia, mother England (and in the U.S. the national capital) was faraway, and had little concern with the day-to-day realities of frontier life. In Israel, the colonial government was an outright hindrance. Also, all have in common being part of the English-speaking world. America, Canada, Australia and Israel have in common a tradition of an open economy based largely on trade with the rest of the world. That seafaring and eventually trading tradition has a drastic impact on culture. These countries look outward, whereas most other countries in the world look inward. America, Canada, Australia and Israel have in common a broad freedom of religion. There are varying degrees of government involvement in religion but all allow free religious practice. In short, it is natural that these countries be allies among themselves and, in differing degrees, with Great Britain. The U.S.- Israel relationship is, to be sure, more special. Each country each possesses about 1/3 of the world's Jews. Jews have a greater imprint on these countries than any others. So yes, there is a very special relationship. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
aksiom Posted January 31, 2011 Report Posted January 31, 2011 The five English speaking countries, Scandinavia and Israel are, or at least were, the only countries in the world with an active invitation for immigration. They are also on top of the countries known for minimal corruption, with Switzerland to be added to the anti-corruption list. All just mentioned also have well established property rights and enforced rule of law. All share leadership in the world for freedom of opinion and devotional observance of choice. Alar Quote
Rue Posted January 31, 2011 Report Posted January 31, 2011 (edited) I am starting this post with quote from part of a post in the Egypt thread. Bob's right - it deserves its own thread. There are many things that America, Canada, Australia and Israel have in common that no other countries have. They have strikingly similar early histories. All are nations built by pioneers, where the State had a role, albeit minor, in their development. While in Canada the Mounties often arrived ahead of the settlers, by and large, in all of these countries, groups of settlers had to sink or swim on their own. In the case of America, Canada, and Australia, mother England (and in the U.S. the national capital) was faraway, and had little concern with the day-to-day realities of frontier life. In Israel, the colonial government was an outright hindrance. Also, all have in common being part of the English-speaking world. America, Canada, Australia and Israel have in common a tradition of an open economy based largely on trade with the rest of the world. That seafaring and eventually trading tradition has a drastic impact on culture. These countries look outward, whereas most other countries in the world look inward. America, Canada, Australia and Israel have in common a broad freedom of religion. There are varying degrees of government involvement in religion but all allow free religious practice. In short, it is natural that these countries be allies among themselves and, in differing degrees, with Great Britain. The U.S.- Israel relationship is, to be sure, more special. Each country each possesses about 1/3 of the world's Jews. Jews have a greater imprint on these countries than any others. So yes, there is a very special relationship. I myself prefer the above explanation then ones that point to religion or conspiracies of mind control by zionist mason illuminati shape shifting alien Hollywood movie producing bankers. Must concur. Of course much of what you said is generalization but for the sake of brevity and discussion I think it was excellently summarized. There are many reasons or levels of analysis of the relationship but this for sure I think is a basic one. Edited January 31, 2011 by Rue Quote
The_Squid Posted January 31, 2011 Report Posted January 31, 2011 (edited) Sure, we have lots in common with Israel. That doesn't mean we should support them in their racist and harmful policies. I'm not saying that the situation there is all the fault of Israel, but to attribute no blame to their policies is simply willful blindness. There is a really interesting documentary about the strange and disfunctional relationship between Israel and the Palestinians who live and make a living there... http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0391857/ Edited January 31, 2011 by The_Squid Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 31, 2011 Report Posted January 31, 2011 Sure, we have lots in common with Israel. That doesn't mean we should support them in their racist and harmful policies. I'm not saying that the situation there is all the fault of Israel, but to attribute no blame to their policies is simply willful blindness. Why not? The US and Israel supported racist and harmful policies in Canada. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
The_Squid Posted January 31, 2011 Report Posted January 31, 2011 Why not? The US and Israel supported racist and harmful policies in Canada. yeah, ok. thanks for your input. Quote
jbg Posted January 31, 2011 Author Report Posted January 31, 2011 Must concur. Of course much of what you said is generalization but for the sake of brevity and discussion I think it was excellently summarized.I appreciate the compliment. It is sometimes very easy to over-analyze the obvious.I will also plead guilty to summarizing too much, and sometimes it comes out looking like bigotry, even when not intended that way. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
jbg Posted January 31, 2011 Author Report Posted January 31, 2011 Sure, we have lots in common with Israel. That doesn't mean we should support them in their racist and harmful policies. I'm not saying that the situation there is all the fault of Israel, but to attribute no blame to their policies is simply willful blindness.Apparently the Jews are the only peoples not entitled to self-determination and liberation? Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
The_Squid Posted January 31, 2011 Report Posted January 31, 2011 Apparently the Jews are the only peoples not entitled to self-determination and liberation? Where did I say that? Your post is not even worth a response. It's nonsense. Quote
bud Posted January 31, 2011 Report Posted January 31, 2011 Apparently the Jews are the only peoples not entitled to self-determination and liberation? they got their country. now if only they (some already do) would feel that the palestinians are entitled to self-determination and liberation. Quote http://whoprofits.org/
Bob Posted February 1, 2011 Report Posted February 1, 2011 Sure, we have lots in common with Israel. That doesn't mean we should support them in their racist and harmful policies. I'm not saying that the situation there is all the fault of Israel, but to attribute no blame to their policies is simply willful blindness. What racist policies? Please elaborate. There is a really interesting documentary about the strange and disfunctional relationship between Israel and the Palestinians who live and make a living there...http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0391857/ That movie, while interesting, is certainly not as broad in scope as you're suggesting. It is simply a collection of selected footage of Arabs at checkpoints in Israel and the Yehudah and Shomron areas. It is s component of the relationship between non-Israeli Palestinians and Israel, as it gives some insight into how checkpoints operate. Saying the movie is about the "dysfunctional relationship between Israel and the Palestinians" is like saying an X-Ray technologist is a doctor. You're reaching way too far in how much you think that movie touches on. Quote My blog - bobinisrael.blogspot.com - I am writing on it, again!
Bob Posted February 1, 2011 Report Posted February 1, 2011 they got their country. now if only they (some already do) would feel that the palestinians are entitled to self-determination and liberation. They can have all the liberation and self-determination they want, but not at our expense and not on top of our country. Unfortunately, Palestinian self-determination seems to be inextricable from anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism. Quote My blog - bobinisrael.blogspot.com - I am writing on it, again!
dre Posted February 1, 2011 Report Posted February 1, 2011 Apparently the Jews are the only peoples not entitled to self-determination and liberation? WTF? Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 1, 2011 Report Posted February 1, 2011 yeah, ok. thanks for your input. You may not like my glib comment, but it is an effort to show that some do not treat or respect Israel as a sovereign state, every bit as viable as Canada or the United States. Israel has policies and interests to protect just like Canada and the USA, and if you check the history of those two nations, Israel has nothing to be ashamed of. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
jbg Posted February 1, 2011 Author Report Posted February 1, 2011 they got their country. now if only they (some already do) would feel that the palestinians are entitled to self-determination and liberation. Why can't some of that self-determination and liberation be exercised on other countries' land? After all Yasir Arafat was an Egyption. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
bud Posted February 1, 2011 Report Posted February 1, 2011 Why can't some of that self-determination and liberation be exercised on other countries' land? After all Yasir Arafat was an Egyption. what? are you saying that the palestinian territory does not belong to palestinians? that they should move out of their land and go to egypt? why are you so against the liberation and self-deterimination of palestinians? why are you such an extremist? Quote http://whoprofits.org/
Bonam Posted February 1, 2011 Report Posted February 1, 2011 what? are you saying that the palestinian territory does not belong to palestinians? that they should move out of their land and go to egypt? why are you so against the liberation and self-deterimination of palestinians? why are you such an extremist? No what he's saying is that the chances of a viable Palestinian state coming into existence would certainly be increased if Egypt and/or Jordan agreed to contribute some land to it as well, rather than only Israel. After all, they too share much of the historical role that has put the Palestinians into their current situation. Quote
bud Posted February 1, 2011 Report Posted February 1, 2011 No what he's saying is that the chances of a viable Palestinian state coming into existence would certainly be increased if Egypt and/or Jordan agreed to contribute some land to it as well, rather than only Israel. After all, they too share much of the historical role that has put the Palestinians into their current situation. egypt and jordan are not occupying and annexing palestinian land. what mumble jumble you type. Quote http://whoprofits.org/
Bob Posted February 1, 2011 Report Posted February 1, 2011 what? are you saying that the palestinian territory does not belong to palestinians? that they should move out of their land and go to egypt? why are you so against the liberation and self-deterimination of palestinians? why are you such an extremist? The legitimacy of a nation's claim to land is reduced (if not outright eliminated) when its idea of independence and self-determination is commitment to the destruction of another nation-state. Their independence and self-determination doesn't override ours, and their actualization of their intentions stops when it steps on our toes. We don't feel entirely comfortable with another enemy state on our doorstep, at the moment. If we were to completely withdraw from most of what you call the West Bank, what do you think would happen? We're not ignorant enough to think that we'll magically have peace with these people if we remove ourselves from some disputed territories. We haven't forgotten the Arab/Muslim pogroms and terrorism reaching back decades before Israel's establishment. They were hating us and killing us decades before Israel, and long before any military occupation came into being. Put simply, they can have all the self-determination and freedom they want, but when their self-determination and freedom means murdering Jews, then we've got a problem. See how that works? Quote My blog - bobinisrael.blogspot.com - I am writing on it, again!
Bob Posted February 1, 2011 Report Posted February 1, 2011 egypt and jordan are not occupying and annexing palestinian land. what mumble jumble you type. It's our land. Quote My blog - bobinisrael.blogspot.com - I am writing on it, again!
bud Posted February 1, 2011 Report Posted February 1, 2011 The legitimacy of a nation's claim to land is reduced (if not outright eliminated) when its idea of independence and self-determination is commitment to the destruction of another nation-state. terrorism is part of israel's creation. but that's okay with you, because you're a hypocrite douchebag. Their independence and self-determination doesn't override ours, and yours doesn't override theirs, you hypocrite douchebag. If we were to completely withdraw from most of what you call the West Bank, what do you think would happen? then you would be respecting the moral and legal obligation you have towards the freedom, independence and self-determination of the people and their land. We're not ignorant enough to think that we'll magically have peace with these people if we remove ourselves from some disputed territories. staying on their land and annexing it does nothing but to fan extremism. you're ignorant if you think otherwise. We haven't forgotten the Arab/Muslim pogroms and terrorism reaching back decades before Israel's establishment. They were hating us and killing us decades before Israel, and long before any military occupation came into being. they started once european jews started migrating to palestine and pushing the palestinians out. that was the cause. before that, jews in relative peace in the arab world and iran. Put simply, they can have all the self-determination and freedom they want, but when their self-determination and freedom means murdering Jews, then we've got a problem. See how that works? your statement is illogical and irrational. the palestinians having freedom and self-determination wouldn't make them more angry and hostile towards israel, as opposed to the anger they're feeling today for what israel has put them through. what a stupid thing to say. Quote http://whoprofits.org/
bud Posted February 1, 2011 Report Posted February 1, 2011 It's our land. the west bank and east jerusalem is not your land. Quote http://whoprofits.org/
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 1, 2011 Report Posted February 1, 2011 the west bank and east jerusalem is not your land. Yes it is...nobody has the right to land, but they do have the right to defend possession. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
bud Posted February 1, 2011 Report Posted February 1, 2011 Yes it is...nobody has the right to land, but they do have the right to defend possession. eh? are you channeling us from 1711? Quote http://whoprofits.org/
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 1, 2011 Report Posted February 1, 2011 (edited) eh? are you channeling us from 1711? Well, I am closer to Jerusalem than you. Will you die for Vancouver? Edited February 1, 2011 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
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