Oleg Bach Posted January 25, 2011 Report Posted January 25, 2011 Don't like the term power vacum. It is a misleading use of language...as if this power that disappears...leaves a sucking vortex to be filled....usually if you have a bastard in power....and it disappears...there is no vacum to be filled because there was never any real power their to begin with! If there was power - it would sustain indefinitely...Maybe we have to stop refering to any interloper with a mob and a gun as powerful? Quote
Jack Weber Posted January 25, 2011 Report Posted January 25, 2011 a lot of investment has gone into egypt in order to have a yes-man. this could be over very soon. It could be over soon...Or Mubarek might just start killing anyone who stands up against him... Or if he leaves,a power struggle ensues and any posible movement otwards democracy is crushed by bloodthirsty authoritarian types like Mubarek,or Islamofascist groups like the Muslim Brotherhood... Sadly,the last scenario is the most likely... Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
Jack Weber Posted January 25, 2011 Report Posted January 25, 2011 (edited) i'm a little more optimistic. the egyptians that i've come across usually have a pretty good understanding of politics and the system. a good percentage of them are also educated. i doubt they will allow this opportunity to go to waste. if it happens, lets just hope that their elected official is liked by US (and israel). otherwise, we could see another attempt to overthrow the elected government. Well,that's the same for the Iranian diaspora... The fact of the matter is that they are not in Egypt and can't do much more than watch. If the US and Israel get their way,they definately won't want a democracy in Egypt.The potential for an elected Islamofascist government is a real possibility (see Gaza),and they won't want that on Israel's doorstep.If both of those entities have their way,they'll go for another Fascist/Authoritarian type who will brutally crush any democratic or Islamofascist group within Egypt. Why do you think the powers on this planet like Fascists so much? Give them some money,guns,and,free reign to kill their "enemies" and they're pretty happy... Edited January 25, 2011 by Jack Weber Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
Oleg Bach Posted January 25, 2011 Report Posted January 25, 2011 America is like the guy sitting at the bar between two hooligans...America leans to one and says..."the guy next to me says you f**k your mother" ------- Then America turns to the other and whispers "this guy next to me says you take it up the ass" --------Then all hell breaks loose and America sells both sides arms...and when both have battled themselves into weakness - America goes through their pockets. Quote
bud Posted January 25, 2011 Report Posted January 25, 2011 Well,that's the same for the Iranian diaspora... The fact of the matter is that they are not in Egypt and can't do much more than watch. If the US and Israel get their way,they definately won't want a democracy in Egypt.The potential for an elected Islamofascist government is a real possibility (see Gaza),and they won't want that on Israel's doorstep.If both of those entities have their way,they'll go for another Fascist/Authoritarian type who will brutally crush any democratic or Islmaofascist group within Egypt. Why do you think the powers on this planet like Fascists so much? Give them some money,guns,and,free reign to kill their "enemies" and they're pretty happy... in majority of cases, money buys power. 95% of the elected presidents (i'm including bush jr. as elected as well) in the past have spent the most money (of all their rivals) during their campaigns to become presidents. gaza and egypt are different. hamas is running a prison cell and nothing else. i also wouldn't call their policies as religious. they're not like the taliban who subscribes to fundamental and extremist interpretation of islam. where girls are forbidden to go to school and women are killed for not covering their hair. hamas is a populist group which was elected due to its clean and efficient social programs. also, people were sick and tired of the extremely corrupt fatah government. that's why they received more votes than fatah in both gaza and west bank. it's too bad that they succumbed to vengeance and to the extremist factions and chose to take part in suicide attacks in the past. i'm willing to bet anyone that if israel was interested in a real and just peace and chose to talk to hamas, instead of making excuses, hamas would sit down and talk. they have already 'unofficially' accepted the 1967 border. but anyway... back to tunisia and egypt. Quote http://whoprofits.org/
Jack Weber Posted January 25, 2011 Report Posted January 25, 2011 in majority of cases, money buys power. 95% of the elected presidents (i'm including bush jr. as elected as well) in the past have spent the most money (of all their rivals) during their campaigns to become presidents. gaza and egypt are different. hamas is running a prison cell and nothing else. i also wouldn't call their policies as religious. they're not like the taliban who subscribes to fundamental and extremist interpretation of islam. where girls are forbidden to go to school and women are killed for not covering their hair. hamas is a populist group which was elected due to its clean and efficient social programs. also, people were sick and tired of the extremely corrupt fatah government. that's why they received more votes than fatah in both gaza and west bank. it's too bad that they succumbed to vengeance and to the extremist factions and chose to take part in suicide attacks in the past. i'm willing to bet anyone that if israel was interested in a real and just peace and chose to talk to hamas, instead of making excuses, hamas would sit down and talk. they have already 'unofficially' accepted the 1967 border. but anyway... back to tunisia and egypt. Maybe so... It still does'nt change the fact that they are a bloodthirsty Islamofascist organization.It also does'nt change the fact that neither the US,or Israel,would want a democratically elected Islamfascist gov't in Egypt on Israel's doorstep...For obvious reasons... The most likley scenario is another authoritarian/Fascist dictator that will quell any dissent... I don't see,in either Tunisia or Egypt,how a true democracy can grow at the moment.The reason is that as soon as the authoritarian types don't get their way,they immediately go on killing spree's to frighten the populous into submission... Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
Oleg Bach Posted January 25, 2011 Report Posted January 25, 2011 Maybe so... It still does'nt change the fact that they are a bloodthirsty Islamofascist organization.It also does'nt change the fact that neither the US,or Israel,would want a democratically elected Islamfascist gov't in Egypt on Israel's doorstep...For obvious reasons... The most likley scenario is another authoritarian/Fascist dictator that will quell any dissent... I don't see,in either Tunisia or Egypt,how a true democracy can grow at the moment.The reason is that as soon as the authoritarian types don't get their way,they immediately go on killing spree's to frighten the populous into submission... YOU sure take your time writing...making sure you come across as sane...You seem to put more thought and work into your posts...where as looney me don't give a shit...Jack - you are a guy that cares...about how others percieve you...take it from me...Impressions are only of value it they generate money - and there is no money to be had here. Quote
bud Posted January 25, 2011 Report Posted January 25, 2011 Maybe so... It still does'nt change the fact that they are a bloodthirsty Islamofascist organization.It also does'nt change the fact that neither the US,or Israel,would want a democratically elected Islamfascist gov't in Egypt on Israel's doorstep...For obvious reasons... The most likley scenario is another authoritarian/Fascist dictator that will quell any dissent... I don't see,in either Tunisia or Egypt,how a true democracy can grow at the moment.The reason is that as soon as the authoritarian types don't get their way,they immediately go on killing spree's to frighten the populous into submission... extremist groups usually grow in support and power when all other moderate options are not available. if us doesn't support dictators and doesn't fuck around in the middle east, there wouldn't be support for extremist groups. Quote http://whoprofits.org/
Jack Weber Posted January 25, 2011 Report Posted January 25, 2011 extremist groups usually grow in support and power when all other moderate options are not available. if us doesn't support dictators and doesn't fuck around in the middle east, there wouldn't be support for extremist groups. The US is not wholly at fault here... Nassar was a Pan-Arab Ba'Athist....Not exactly a fan of democracy... And I'm dubious about any large "moderate" democratic movement in a country that has never really known representative democracy.... Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
August1991 Posted January 26, 2011 Author Report Posted January 26, 2011 I'm still dubious about who would fill a power vacuum in that region,however... That's the $64 question.Given what is happening in Lebanon now, and given that Iraq has been "Lebanonized", it doesn't look good. As they said about Algeria, you get one democratic election and then you don't get anymore. With that said, the status quo is unsustainable and Bush at least had the courage to see that "stability" or the "peace process" is no longer in the interests of the civilized world. ---- I am heartened when I see both young men and young women in the street protesting in Tunis and Tehran. As I heard on the radio in Montreal recently, you can bet that many love affairs germinated recently in Tunis. Oppression in the Middle East goes well beyond politics. Quote
bud Posted January 26, 2011 Report Posted January 26, 2011 The US is not wholly at fault here... Nassar was a Pan-Arab Ba'Athist....Not exactly a fan of democracy... And I'm dubious about any large "moderate" democratic movement in a country that has never really known representative democracy.... it has to start somewhere just like any other place. the fact that they have never had a democracy shouldn't be an excuse to not support the will of the people. Quote http://whoprofits.org/
bloodyminded Posted January 26, 2011 Report Posted January 26, 2011 With that said, the status quo is unsustainable and Bush at least had the courage to see that "stability" or the "peace process" is no longer in the interests of the civilized world. That's nonsense. Bush (and he was completely usual in this regard) was totally supportive of hardcore, tyrannical, dictatorial regimes. And "stability" is one of the key reasons for this. Do you look at Iraq and forget that the rest of the world exists? Quote As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand. --Josh Billings
bloodyminded Posted January 26, 2011 Report Posted January 26, 2011 (edited) Maybe so... It still does'nt change the fact that they are a bloodthirsty Islamofascist organization.It also does'nt change the fact that neither the US,or Israel,would want a democratically elected Islamfascist gov't in Egypt on Israel's doorstep...For obvious reasons... The US wouldn't want a leftist, nationalist, democratically-elected government either, as we've seen from their preference for dictatorships over these types of governments elsewhere. They'd prefer an obedient authoritarian. Edited January 26, 2011 by bloodyminded Quote As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand. --Josh Billings
Rue Posted January 26, 2011 Report Posted January 26, 2011 I don't think that Bush Jnr's decision to remove Saddam Hussein in Iraq was a catalyst of events in Tunisia. Say now, you mean you don't blame either the U.S. or Israel for anything and everything that happens in the Middle East? Well why not. La dee dah to you. Quote
Rue Posted January 26, 2011 Report Posted January 26, 2011 (edited) The US wouldn't want a leftist, nationalist, democratically-elected government either, as we've seen from their preference for dictatorships over these types of governments elsewhere. They'd prefer an obedient authoritarian. Oh wait for a second I thought you were talking about China's or Turkey's support of Iran and Sudan and the Hezbollah and Hamas. Edited January 26, 2011 by Rue Quote
bloodyminded Posted January 26, 2011 Report Posted January 26, 2011 (edited) Oh wait for a second I thought you were talking about China's or Turkey's support of Iran and Sudan. Why? How is it related? Does it justify the behaviour of us and our allies? If so...why? Edited January 26, 2011 by bloodyminded Quote As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand. --Josh Billings
Jack Weber Posted January 27, 2011 Report Posted January 27, 2011 Tunisia has issued an arrest warrant for it's former leader... Who's hiding out in Saudi Arabia... I wonder if the Saudi's will turn him over??? Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
Shwa Posted January 27, 2011 Report Posted January 27, 2011 Tunisia has issued an arrest warrant for it's former leader... Who's hiding out in Saudi Arabia... I wonder if the Saudi's will turn him over??? Naw, just send him to Montreal... the 'new Paris' for ex-dictators and baked rock stars... Quote
Rue Posted January 27, 2011 Report Posted January 27, 2011 (edited) Why? How is it related? Does it justify the behaviour of us and our allies? If so...why? Of course it might. You know what snap shot analysis is? That is when we take a snap shot of Tunisia and the US and ignore the rest of the world. Foreign policy is an intricate series of relationships each inter-related to another. The relationship between the US and Tunisia is part of a greater equation-US foreign policy as to Tunisia does not work in a vacuum unrelated to the rest of the world or the Middle East and how things that may happen in Tunisia may effect the US's relations with Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Indonesia, China, on and on. Of course it is illogical to simply blame the U.S. You think Tunisia;s economic malaise is only created by the US? No other country in the world had financial interests in Tunisia and did business with its corupt leaders? Right. How about you go find out who did business with Tunisia and then tell me how you think it logical to only blame the US and ignore any other country's influence on the corupt government or for that matter the decision of those corupt Tunisians for their own actions. Heaven forbid someone who is corupt has any responsibility for their own behaviour. Edited January 27, 2011 by Rue Quote
Rue Posted January 27, 2011 Report Posted January 27, 2011 (edited) Say now am I supposed to take solace in seeing the last response to me opened the door to other Western allies to blame other than the U.S. Right. Isn't it interesting Libya is Tunisia's most strategic partner. heaven forbid we bring Moe Ghaddafi and his heavy propping of the corupt government to secure his oil pipeline into the equation. After all Moe is just a victim to of Western governments. Everyone but the West is a victim. Not that I want to interupt any further blame the US knee jerk reactions but if anyone is actually interested in who Tunisia's major suppliers and trade partners were/are and its not the US they can go to: http://www.muslimtrade.net/tradeguideline/tunisia/index.html Edited January 27, 2011 by Rue Quote
August1991 Posted January 29, 2011 Author Report Posted January 29, 2011 (edited) Say now, you mean you don't blame either the U.S. or Israel for anything and everything that happens in the Middle East? Well why not. La dee dah to you. Rue you forgot the rest of my statement.I said that Bush Jnr made the events in Tunis possible. Edited January 29, 2011 by August1991 Quote
bloodyminded Posted February 2, 2011 Report Posted February 2, 2011 (edited) Of course it might. You know what snap shot analysis is? That is when we take a snap shot of Tunisia and the US and ignore the rest of the world. Foreign policy is an intricate series of relationships each inter-related to another. The relationship between the US and Tunisia is part of a greater equation-US foreign policy as to Tunisia does not work in a vacuum unrelated to the rest of the world or the Middle East and how things that may happen in Tunisia may effect the US's relations with Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Indonesia, China, on and on. Of course it is illogical to simply blame the U.S. You think Tunisia;s economic malaise is only created by the US? No other country in the world had financial interests in Tunisia and did business with its corupt leaders? Right. How about you go find out who did business with Tunisia and then tell me how you think it logical to only blame the US and ignore any other country's influence on the corupt government or for that matter the decision of those corupt Tunisians for their own actions. I never once said, nor implied, nor vaguely hinted, that everything "is only created by the U.S.," or that everything can be blamed on them. Perhaps you're arguing with a phantom, whom you've unaccountably mistaken for myself. Heaven forbid someone who is corupt has any responsibility for their own behaviour. I agree. And as a Westerner, I am more concerned with Western culpability, with what we've done wrong. That's an elementary moral stance, one that we (rightly) teach to our four-year-olds. Any coward can avoid facing our own culpability, and instead frocus laserlike on the crimes and faults of others. And, in fact, every coward does exactly that. Edited February 2, 2011 by bloodyminded Quote As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand. --Josh Billings
August1991 Posted February 6, 2011 Author Report Posted February 6, 2011 Lexington in The Economist agrees (sort of) with the basic point in my OP: IN MY print column this week I felt I owed it to George Bush to remember that he was a keener promoter of Arab democracy than Barack Obama. The Economist---- I am disheartened with the American Right's comparison of Jimmy Carter/the Shah of Iran and Barack Obama/Egyptian president Hosni Mubarak. The two situations were/are very different, and my only conclusion is that some Americans foolishly believe that they are the centre of the universe - and they decide events beyond their shores. They're not, and they don't. (Sadly, too many non-Americans foolishly fall to this American self-importance.) For example, what has happened in Tunisia? Is anyone in America (right or left) talking about Tunisia now? ---- Nevertheless, George Bush Jnr. was arguably right to defeat Saddam in Iraq, oppose the status quo and defend democracy in the Middle East. A royalist France once helped a young democracy to exist. Politics sometimes makes for strange bed fellows. Quote
Jack Weber Posted February 6, 2011 Report Posted February 6, 2011 (edited) Lexington in The Economist agrees (sort of) with the basic point in my OP:The Economist ---- I am disheartened with the American Right's comparison of Jimmy Carter/the Shah of Iran and Barack Obama/Egyptian president Hosni Mubarak. The two situations were/are very different, and my only conclusion is that some Americans foolishly believe that they are the centre of the universe - and they decide events beyond their shores. They're not, and they don't. (Sadly, too many non-Americans foolishly fall to this American self-importance.) For example, what has happened in Tunisia? Is anyone in America (right or left) talking about Tunisia now? ---- Nevertheless, George Bush Jnr. was arguably right to defeat Saddam in Iraq, oppose the status quo and defend democracy in the Middle East. A royalist France once helped a young democracy to exist. Politics sometimes makes for strange bed fellows. (Cue Mr.Obvious) "This just in!!! Latter day citizens of the USA found to be woefully lacking in knowledge on anything that does'nt relate to them!!!...Sometimes this manifests itself in an insular and internationally arrogant attitude!!! Film at 11!" Hey,the reason that no one in the US is talking about Tunisia is that there's alot less cashola that goes to Tunisia and Tunisia is nowhere near as strategically important,vis a vis Israel. That's a shame because they should be looking at what happened in Tunisia last week and se how it directly relates,not just to Egypt ,but more particularily Yemen.. A radical Islamofascist cleric returned to Tunisia last week,after being exiled for inciting violence,by the deposed former dictator.Upon his return,he said he wants Islam to be a major force in the new government of Tunisia... If Pan Arab Nationalist/Fascists don't want someone in their country around because he might be too violent,the guy is a loose cannon! It should be noted that there was a very large crowd on hand to welcome this Islamofascist cleric home... Yet I'm told the Mulsim Brotherhood is a bunch of real nice Boy Scout types.... Edited February 6, 2011 by Jack Weber Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
August1991 Posted February 6, 2011 Author Report Posted February 6, 2011 Yet I'm told the Mulsim Brotherhood is a bunch of real nice Boy Scout types.... Well, Harry Truman and George W. Bush have shown the general American response to such threats.If a fanatical Muslim Brotherhood controls Egypt and is a threat to America (many hypotheticals there), I have no doubt what an American president will do. Quote
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