Gun Control

[takeanumber]

Gun Control

A semi-Authoritarian, semi-Libertarian Approach.

Assumptions:

1. Guns are a vital part of rural life.

2. Guns are not a vital part of urban life.

3. Canada is a the type of society where you should not need to own a gun to feel safe.

4. Guns, in general, are responsible for more deaths by accident than they prevent.

5. The Urban need for enhanced security should be accomodated by alarms and lighting, not with guns.

If you wish to challenge any assumption, you may do so.

The debate over gun control has a distinct urban-rural flavour, where the urban distate for crimes committed with firearms and gun violence in general has caused solutions to be imposed on rural populations who do not share the same concerns.

One possible resolution:

1. Abolish gun registry.

2. Referendums to be held in every urban area with populations greater than 100,000 people to ban guns in their cities. Smaller communities may opt in for similar referendums.

3. If the referendum is passed, all firearms are to be removed from the city. Anybody caught with a gun, trafficing or holding a gun in their home, will be charged with a severe criminal code offense.

4. If you love guns, they are to be stored at shooting ranges that the market will create in the outskirts of the city.

5. If you feel that unsafe in a city without carrying a handgun, or having a loaded gun in your home, find a community that shares your values. (Majority decides in a referendum.)

6. If you reside in a rural area, and wish to transport your handguns through a gun-banned area, you are to make arrangements with the RCMP to get them transported through the said areas.

The logic being: if you have a gun in a community/city that does not want guns in their community/city, you are a criminal for not respecting those local laws.

"only crimials will have guns"

That's a fear induced response. If you're scared, vote NO in the referendum.

That's my solution. I think it's a different way of going about it. Might not please everybody, but at least I tried to think outside the box.

Like I said, it's semi-authoritarian, semi-Libertarian.

Regards,

Takeanumber.

[Slavik44]

Well I live in an urban area, and there are guns in my hosue, but it isn't to feel secure, it is for hunting.

As for your suggestion, i will use vanocuver as an example.

Say we ban all guns in Vancouver, we force people to pay to have their guns stored outside city limits. We would then have to regulate the gun storage market, and make sure it is in line. next logically we would have to ban bullets beig gsold within the city as well. As you can easily make a homemade dispossable gun. Furthermore many hunters make their own bullets, that two would need to be illegal aswell. now you can imagine all the regulations and work that woudl be required. I mean look at how much effort we put into controlling pot, that is the biggest reason to de-criminalize 5 grams or so. to take the load of the police. Doing this would be 50 times harder to maintain and make work. Beyond that i woudl ahve to assuem that the cost woudl be astronomical. Your biggest problem is you base thsi on the theory that we own guns to be safe. I honestly do not belive Canadains own guns to be safe. Another point would be the fact that criminals are very good at hiding gun's/stashing guns, meanign again we may jsut take guns out of the hands fo people we don't need to. While I applaud your thought, I must say it is not practical, and most likely not possible to implement.

[takeanumber]

Good reply.

I think in total, it would be cheaper than the gun registry.

And more democratic.

Besides, there's already regulation for gun shooting ranges.

There wouldn't be a need for more specific regulation.

Just banning guns in the urban areas that want to ban them.

It's like VLT referendums.

Let the community decide.

This way, farmers don't need to be bothered.

[Stoker]

Of all the murders in Canada each year by guns, how many of those guns were legal?

I'm quite sure the Hells Angles will be more then willing to register their Hand guns and Assault rifles

Or under your plan, I'm quite sure all the crimials within a "gun free city" will be quite willing to move to a "pro gun city" so as to not break the city by-law.......

[takeanumber]

Criminals get caught.

If you're pulled over for a routine offense, and the officer finds a gun in your car, you're thrown in prison before you can commit a really serious crime.

[Stoker]

Criminals get caught.

If you're pulled over for a routine offense, and the officer finds a gun in your car, you're thrown in prison before you can commit a really serious crime

So your idea or that of the Libs, is going to cut down on organized crime? Illegal firearms?........or are they to cut down on farmers/hunters/and general gun lovers/collecters?

[takeanumber]

Re-read the assumptions.

(If you're a gun lover, vote 'no'. Otherwise, you'll have to store them outside the city.)

[Stoker]

Re-read the assumptions.

(If you're a gun lover, vote 'no'. Otherwise, you'll have to store them outside the city.)

Why not go after the people breaking the laws, instead of making new ones up?

You know what one of the first things your buddy Hitler did when he took over........gun control...figures you would be in favor of it you Nazi scum.

[takeanumber]

You know what one of the first things your buddy Hitler did when he took over........gun control...figures you would be in favor of it you Nazi scum.

You should read the other thread before you refer to me as a Nazi, Stoker.

As for your point about 'going after the criminals'; the problem I'm trying to address is to resolve the urban need for enhanced security against the rural need for their own form of security.

I don't think anybody here is 'pro-crime', but I think the idea of pre-empting gun crime in communities that don't want guns in their neighborhoods to be quite robust.

It's just one more tool for the police to use. Spot a gun? Bust a criminal.

[Reverend Blair]

I know too many people who hunt (and give me the occasional deer steak) to support the gun registry or banning guns within city limits.

I was also raised spending a lot of time on farms where the .22 is a fact of life...for pest control, not protection.

We do need gun control though. The first step would be to step up border security and permanently ban any non-Canadian caught trying to bring guns into Canada.

The second step would be a registration of all gun owners through the FAC. That should include a mandatory gun safety check, criminal record check for violent crimes, mental stability check and so on. There should be no registry for each firearm. If you have guns and don't have an FAC, go to prison.

Handguns should be illegal. I know some people target shoot with them and I know some people in the US hunt with them. Their most common use is shooting people though, so they should be banned outright.

Assault weapons should be illegal. I don't know one single hunter who needs a semi-automatic (which can be converted to full auto) assault rifle to shoot deer with.

[Slavik44]

how would you find the gun?

It seems like the easiest quetion to answer but, with the amount of cvillian liberties and rights canada has, you would start runing into problems with "fruit of the poisonous vine" and what not. As people do not walk around openly with guns where would we find them?

Simply take a list of people from the gun registry and decide to search their house? Search their work place? School lockers? Place of worship? Car? bag? Purse? Their has to be an adequate reason to initiate the search and unfortunantely, "The guy had a beer gut and a banadna" Wouldn't cut it.

[takeanumber]

I know too many people who hunt (and give me the occasional deer steak) to support the gun registry or banning guns within city limits.

I was also raised spending a lot of time on farms where the .22 is a fact of life...for pest control, not protection.

We do need gun control though. The first step would be to step up border security and permanently ban any non-Canadian caught trying to bring guns into Canada.

The second step would be a registration of all gun owners through the FAC. That should include a mandatory gun safety check, criminal record check for violent crimes, mental stability check and so on. There should be no registry for each firearm. If you have guns and don't have an FAC, go to prison.

Handguns should be illegal. I know some people target shoot with them and I know some people in the US hunt with them. Their most common use is shooting people though, so they should be banned outright.

Assault weapons should be illegal. I don't know one single hunter who needs a semi-automatic (which can be converted to full auto) assault rifle to shoot deer with.

Superior points.

With respect to Hunters:

I'm aware that there are wildlife areas reserved specifically for hunters (at least in the East), and I'm sure that some of these communities would absolutely love the business that they'd get from having the hunters store their guns out there.

It might employ two or three more people, plus a few summer students.

I think it would be a boon to some rural communities for sure.

Those are just spinoffs.

I mean, if you're going to hunt, why not pick up the gun while you're out there.

With respect to handguns:

I think the valid use of shooting with them at targets is acceptable. It's like Archery I suppose. I can respect that.

Which is why I wouldn't be against allowing handguns in homes in communities that accept that.

Great planks for border security.

Anyway, I know that there's an authoritarian streak in my arguement when I say: "ban guns in the communities that don't want them through referenda", but I really think that this is the easiest way to resolve the Rural-Urban tension, and delete the need for expensive registries. (Criminals don't use them anyway.).

[Reverend Blair]

how would you find the gun?

The same way we find contraband now, Slavik. Routine checks, suspicion of other things leading to searches, etc. That would be especially effective at border crossings.

We will not catch every gun or illegal gun owner, just like we don't catch every shipment of heroin coming into the country. Having real penalties and acknowledging the problem is far more effective than making law-abiding cittizens suffer and giving ourselves a false sense of security that something is being done though.

[takeanumber]

QUOTE 

how would you find the gun?

The same way we find contraband now, Slavik. Routine checks, suspicion of other things leading to searches, etc. That would be especially effective at border crossings.

We will not catch every gun or illegal gun owner, just like we don't catch every shipment of heroin coming into the country. Having real penalties and acknowledging the problem is far more effective than making law-abiding cittizens suffer and giving ourselves a false sense of security that something is being done though.

I strongly agree with Blair on this point.

And I can respect him for his probable point that he doesn't want to have to head out to the gun locker every time he wants to go hunting. It would be a nuissance.

[Slavik44]

how would you find the gun?

The same way we find contraband now, Slavik. Routine checks, suspicion of other things leading to searches, etc. That would be especially effective at border crossings.

We will not catch every gun or illegal gun owner, just like we don't catch every shipment of heroin coming into the country. Having real penalties and acknowledging the problem is far more effective than making law-abiding cittizens suffer and giving ourselves a false sense of security that something is being done though.

Well I see a problem with that, right away we acknowledge we won't catch every one. Next unlike herione guns would still be sold freely outside of urban areas, easy access. Unlike drugs the RCMP probabley does not have to many Gun sniffing dogs. I would also think it is easier to coneal a gun than say a couple kilos of herione. "of the 149 gun killings last year, handguns accounted for two-thirds" so we can assume we are trying to find easy to conceal weapons. So there are some flaws with that. which brings me to my next point.

Do we need gun control? I mean does canada need gun control or do we see a problem in America and try to fix it in Canada? 149 gun killings last year, America had over 10,000 I think, thats a huge difference. Do we really need gun control. that with the costs of referendums, more police force, more training, hightend security at the borders, more equipment, it could easily topple 2 billion dollars. When Statistics tell us that anywhere from 200,000 to 250,000 people are homeless in Canada and who knows how many die each year. Statistics also tell us that "Patients have reason to be nervous. On May 8, the National Post reported that "an estimated 10,000 Canadians die every year as a result of preventable mistakes in hospitals". While gun control may be something to talk about we may be better off spending are time and moeny preventing homelessness and preventing needless deaths in hospitals. Infact perhaps if we cut down on poverty and homelessness we would reduce the amount of gang members and because of this reduce the amount of gun deaths. Just soemthing you may want to think about; perhaps there are better more assured ways to save lives? Besides Knives are use din homicides more then Guns, and since the gun registry was put in palce there has been an increase in stabbings, perhaps a link?

[Reverend Blair]

Next unlike herione guns would still be sold freely outside of urban areas, easy access.

A little later you acknowledge that 2/3 of the murders committed with guns were committed with hand guns, Slavik. I already said that those should be banned outright, so there is no longer any easy access.

There will still be illegal guns available, especially since our southern neighbour has become, more and more, a gun culture. Those guns need to be stopped, as much as possible, at the border though. Jail time and permanent bans for non-Canadians trying to bring guns into the country would go a long way toward acheiving that because severe penalties would push the price of black market guns up.

For responsible gun owners guns are just a tool for hunting or getting rid of pests. They overwhelmingly use long guns. They commit very few crimes. Some need safety courses, something that I've said should be mandatory, but most have already taken courses or learned from others how to handle guns safely.

[caesar]

An honest farmer, rancher, or hunter should have no reluctance to have his gun registered. This is simply a register to trace guns. I would like to see that responsible gun ownership should be proven before one can own one. Guns should be stored in a safe secure location. We have daily shootings here in Vancouver in the past few years. This has increased; since our provincial government decided it would be a good idea to allow some clubs to stay open and serve liquor until 4 am.

Police should be able to confiscate a non registered gun BEFORE someone commits a crime; not after.

Long guns should not be exempt. We have all heard of sawed off shot guns.

We do not want to have our upset children picking up guns and shooting up schools.

We lived on a farm, where everyone had guns for hunting ducks and pheasants. Two brothers were having a fight; one ran into the house; grabbed a handy gun and shot his brother. He immediately had regrets and called the police himself but it was too late for his brother. They were both very nice, likeable boys. Neither were troublemakers. It was a spur of the moment, hot headed youth with too easy access to a gun.

[playfullfellow]

Takeanumber, I must commend you for thinking outside the box and I kind of like your idea. After thinking about it for a bit, in all reality, there is no reason to keep a gun in urban areas. As with almost all limitation laws though, it would be extremely hard to enact and impose on people. I think it would be interesting to see a test ballot on this though and see where the people of this country stand on such an issue.

As for the handgun resolution, the majority of handguns sold now are mainly black market as the hoops you have to jump through to buy one legitamately are very tough and the majority of gun owners view a handgun as a past time, not a necessity. The only legitimate purpose for a handgun is target shooting and this could be very easily be done through a rental type program at shooting ranges.

As for assault style weapons, they are already legislated through the ying yang and an item that mostly collectors even care to attempt to buy. And if you are caught with a converted assault weapon, you basically go to jail. Canada basically bans most weapons that can be converted to full auto easily.

One thread mentioned the majority of weapons related killings now involve knives, which I have read lots of places. I was wondering if anyone knows of any age statistics of the people committing those knife crimes?

[takeanumber]

Thx Playful.

I do my best to derive solutions.

I shouldn't just complain all the time.

Alright, I guess I want to appeal to handgun enthusiasts.

I think it's alright to collect guns of all types. No need to damage them with holes to disable them and whatnot.

I'm sympathetic.

I just posit that if you have a collection, and you live in a city/community that has voted that they want to be gun free, take your collection out to range/storage facility outside the community.

I agree with the point that there is no right/need to carry a concealed weapon, or a handgun. Even for protection.

There's no need for it.

I suppose we should expand to other violent weapons maybe?

Well alright.

Is there any need to carry a concealed hatchet in an urban area?

To cut down trees, yardwork, etc, yes.

But to conceal it on your person?

Nah.

Is there any need to carry a machete in the city?

Nah.

Canada is a country where you shouldn't need those tools for defence.

And if you commit a crime with a hatchet, clever, knife, or machete...it should be an automatic 10 year sentence, if not attempted murder. (I can't think of a single part of the body that you can stab without the intent to kill...even the arm, because you can hit major arteries.).

So yeh.

Off topic. But knife crimes should be automatic, and really, you shouldn't be able to carry around knives.

With respect to religious needs (Sihks), they have pouches that can be sown shut. So long at its sown shut and in a protector, it shouldn't be a problem. I mean, I don't want to trounce on religious freedoms, but I think my concern about some people converting to Sihkism for the ability to legally carry a knife. (some gangs might take advantage).

But yeh.

Let communities decide locally on guns. And once they decide, everybody, including rural folk and communities that disagree (Edmonton, Calgary), to respect the wishes of Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal, QCity, etc.. and not insist on dragging their guns through their communities.

I think that's a good Canadian comprimise. A bit too authoritarian for my personal taste, but yeh, bending half way is fine.

[The Oatmeal Savage]

"How the British maximize crime

Originally found at TownHall.com (off site)

Note: The following is the second of a two-part series

(Part 1 may be seen at Guns and Violence (off site))

Did you know that a person's chances of being mugged in London are six times higher than in New York City? "

http://www.guncontrolnetwork.org/uk13.htm

[takeanumber]

The two cities are not analogous.

[mirror]

Gun crimes to top agenda

"Canadians want to see us as a federal government taking some leadership. Minimum sentencing for anyone using a gun — period," Sgro told reporters yesterday.

We have to stop the gun violence, there is no question about that.

So how are we going to stop the gun violence if we don't get rid of guns? And minimum sentences of what, for what offences?

Shutting down TV that carrys violence, closing the US border, training and getting people off welfare and into decent jobs, child care support, are some suggestions.

If we can be so successful with banning smoking, then we can do it with guns as well, don't you think?

[mirror]

There have been 33 gun-related deaths in Toronto this year, exceeding the 27 recorded in all of 2004.

----------------------------------------------

Blair said about half of the city's illegal guns come from robberies of gun shops or of gun owners who don't keep their weapons secure. The other half are guns illegally brought in from the United States.

Interesting stats. from Blair, Toronto's Police Chief.

Anyway I say confiscate all civilian guns, and impose very harsh sentences for anyone outside the military who has one. The Roy Rogers and the Wild West eras are long over.

[mirror]

Isn't this a good enough reason in itself to confiscate all civilian guns? I think it is.

VANCOUVER—Gunfire, looting and civil unrest in Louisiana forced the 42 members of Vancouver's Urban Search and Rescue team to "hunker down" yesterday in Kenner, La., until local police deem it safe enough for them to conduct rescue operations.

"The lid has blown off this place," said team manager Brian Inglis, in an update on the team website, vancouver.ca/usar.

"We will not be performing any search and rescue operations for at least the next eight to 12 hours," he said.

[kimmy]

Rural Canadians have very good reasons for having guns. Confiscate all civilian guns, and you're putting the safety of members of my family at risk. I won't tolerate it.

-k