First Nations governance and compensation

[Battletoads]

I think its about time we scrap the Indian Act and start treating these people like normal Canadians.

[TimG]

Hence, who pays the chief's salary isn't at issue here.

Actually that IS the issue. The chiefs are not accountable to the people who they are supposed to be leading and that creates an environment rife for abuse. It would be a lot better to give funding to natives as individuals and tell the band leaders that they have tax their people to get the money to pay themselves. Edited December 4, 2010 by TimG

[g_bambino]

Actually that IS the issue. The chiefs are not accountable to the people who they are supposed to be leading and that creates an environment rife for abuse. It would be a lot better to give funding to natives as individuals and tell the band leaders that they have tax their people to get the money to pay themselves.

You're talking about two different things: who pays and the accountability of the person who's paid to the people who pay him. I didn't say there wasn't an issue with First Nations chiefs being essentially unaccountable; there certainly seems to be a problem. I just said there isn't an issue with their salaries being paid for out of the federal Crown treasury. What you propose is a possible alternative, though.

[charter.rights]

I think its about time we scrap the Indian Act and start treating these people like normal Canadians.

Can't do that. The Indian Act is a book of rights in a manner of speaking, and identifies how the rights protected in the Charter will be applied. Certainly there are aspects that could be amended but it would be impossible to do without some sort of regulation that prevents us from imposing on their rights.

First Nations are not Canadians and cannot be made so against their will. I would bet that any negotiation to make them Canadians would come with a hefty compensation and further rights protected under treaty or by amendment of the Charter. So you solution is not only unworkable, but it is lame.

[charter.rights]

Actually that IS the issue. The chiefs are not accountable to the people who they are supposed to be leading and that creates an environment rife for abuse. It would be a lot better to give funding to natives as individuals and tell the band leaders that they have tax their people to get the money to pay themselves.

Nah, that is not the issue. Band elections under the Indian Act are held every 2 years, so they are more accountable to band members that MPs and MPP are to us. Funding pays for common services and cannot be given to individuals. And taxation is not an option unless the Band Council- you know the ones accountable to the members - impose it. Not likely.

Instead if we just paid the Bands what we really owe them, they could manage their resources and services on an equal footing. Who cares what a chief makes. It certainly isn't any of your business and if their private businesses do that well, they they are entitle to the profits. If the band members have a problem with that, let them take it up with their Chiefs. They have less than a year to decide.

[Wild Bill]

They get money because were owe them trillions of dollars that will never be paid off in our lifetime.

You are math-challenged, aren't you? If they are owed trillions of dollars then it can never be paid off, ever!

The amount is just too high for the amount of money Canada has or will ever have! It's like having a VISA card where you owe a million dollars and your yearly income is $40,000. You could never pay off enough of the interest to chip away at the principal.

Even if you took ALL the money Canada has, including what every citizen has in their piggy banks, you would not pay off the debt you claim. Everyone could starve to death and the debt would still not be paid in full.

Trillions is simply an unreasonable sum to expect to recover. It has nothing to do with political will and everything to do with 1 + 1 = 2.

Go ahead, con someone into paying you a penny on day 1, double it on day 2 and so on. By the end of the month you have an astronomical figure. Now, how on earth can he come up with enough money to actually pay you?

Just another reason why people don't take you seriously.

[charter.rights]

You are math-challenged, aren't you? If they are owed trillions of dollars then it can never be paid off, ever!

The amount is just too high for the amount of money Canada has or will ever have! It's like having a VISA card where you owe a million dollars and your yearly income is $40,000. You could never pay off enough of the interest to chip away at the principal.

Even if you took ALL the money Canada has, including what every citizen has in their piggy banks, you would not pay off the debt you claim. Everyone could starve to death and the debt would still not be paid in full.

Trillions is simply an unreasonable sum to expect to recover. It has nothing to do with political will and everything to do with 1 + 1 = 2.

Go ahead, con someone into paying you a penny on day 1, double it on day 2 and so on. By the end of the month you have an astronomical figure. Now, how on earth can he come up with enough money to actually pay you?

Just another reason why people don't take you seriously.

Not math challenged at all. I know numbers and while they are overwhelming it would be possible to make a dent in we started paying it back in large amounts. Most Canadians would have a problem with that sice natives would no longer be the scourge of society. Instead Canadians would become less able to abuse and control the Indians. They fear the Cowboys would meet Custer's fate.

However, we could negotiate with them over resource profits, and joint management of key resources. That would be a start. But doing nothing is not an option since the debt we owe them will double in the next 20 years or so. I'm not willing to leave my grandchildren that kind of debt. Nor am I willing to see my GC paying for our inaction. The honour of the Crown demands that we respect our commitments and obligations. Or are you one of those that refuses to abide by the law?

[Smallc]

Even if you took ALL the money Canada has, including what every citizen has in their piggy banks, you would not pay off the debt you claim. Everyone could starve to death and the debt would still not be paid in full.

That's not really correct, since Canada has an economy worth over $1.5T. Still, we'd be pretty broke afterwards.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Not math challenged at all. I know numbers and while they are overwhelming it would be possible to make a dent in we started paying it back in large amounts. Most Canadians would have a problem with that sice natives would no longer be the scourge of society. Instead Canadians would become less able to abuse and control the Indians. They fear the Cowboys would meet Custer's fate.

However, we could negotiate with them over resource profits, and joint management of key resources. That would be a start. But doing nothing is not an option since the debt we owe them will double in the next 20 years or so. I'm not willing to leave my grandchildren that kind of debt. Nor am I willing to see my GC paying for our inaction. The honour of the Crown demands that we respect our commitments and obligations. Or are you one of those that refuses to abide by the law?

I would rather simply see this nation resolve the outstanding issues immediately by handing over all current governance to each individual band. Immediately withdraw all support given to these former groups of resident Canadians and see them in an international court for any question of further conflict resolution.

The First Nations desire independence, and I agree with them. Let them have their day in court as well, and let that courts judgment be the final solution.

[Saipan]

The Indian Act is a book of rights in a manner of speaking, and identifies how the rights protected in the Charter will be applied.

Charter is about all people being treated equally. So it kills your argument.

[g_bambino]

Charter is about all people being treated equally.

Actually, it's not. It's about guaranteeing "rights and freedoms... subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society." Further, it explicitly states: "The guarantee in this Charter of certain rights and freedoms shall not be construed so as to abrogate or derogate from any aboriginal, treaty or other rights or freedoms that pertain to the aboriginal peoples of Canada including (a) any rights or freedoms that have been recognized by the Royal Proclamation of October 7, 1763; and ( any rights or freedoms that now exist by way of land claims agreements or may be so acquired."

Of course, it makes no mention of the Indian Act, which is only a document that sets out how First Nations are to be governed (so much for CR's assertion that aboriginals are sovereign!). In fact, it was the Indian Act that in 1985 had to be amended to comply with the Charter. CR is, as usual, full of crap.

[+]

Edited December 4, 2010 by g_bambino

[charter.rights]

Charter is about all people being treated equally. So it kills your argument.

The Charter recognizes that First Nations are not Canadians and protects them from unscrupulous dealings. Hence Sect. 25, and 35 provides that we cannot remove those rights, or reduce them in favour of other rights we may have, as well as recognizing that the existing treaties are still valid. My argument if still intact. It is your ignorance that is killing your argument.

Jerry, we can't change our relationship with First Nations without also destroying what Canada has become. Canada does not want to go to international court, either. Just take a read of the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. Not only would we lose, but we would end up having to pay out what we owe immediately putting us in peril. No, your ignorant solution would destroy Canada (which may not be a bad thing) and open the doors for unregulated corruption, and take-over by the US. I'm sure you wouldn't want that, now would you.....

[Saipan]

The Charter recognizes that First Nations are not Canadians and protects them

Hmm, Canadian Charter protecting foreigners, instead of Canadians.

Called Gotham. And the time is running out......

[charter.rights]

Hmm, Canadian Charter protecting foreigners, instead of Canadians.

Called Gotham. And the time is running out......

Fancy that! A Charter of Rights that Protects all people. What is this country coming to?

[Saipan]

A Charter of Rights that Protects all people.

Welcome to the club!

[Shwa]

You are math-challenged, aren't you? If they are owed trillions of dollars then it can never be paid off, ever!

The amount is just too high for the amount of money Canada has or will ever have!...money to actually pay you?

Just another reason why people don't take you seriously.

Well, let me take you seriously then. Who said that the amounts owed need to be paid back in cash? How about lands and assets?

[Shwa]

I would rather simply see this nation resolve the outstanding issues immediately by handing over all current governance to each individual band. Immediately withdraw all support given to these former groups of resident Canadians and see them in an international court for any question of further conflict resolution.

Withdraw our support, give them all their lands back and you can buy the boat tickets back to England. Or France as your surname suggests. Parlez vous francais?

The First Nations desire independence, and I agree with them. Let them have their day in court as well, and let that courts judgment be the final solution.

Heck, with all this landbase, why the courts? They could rent Calgary out to some Asian tourists and get the place spruced up at the same time. Win-win for the Indians!

[Wild Bill]

Not math challenged at all. I know numbers and while they are overwhelming it would be possible to make a dent in we started paying it back in large amounts. Most Canadians would have a problem with that sice natives would no longer be the scourge of society. Instead Canadians would become less able to abuse and control the Indians. They fear the Cowboys would meet Custer's fate.

However, we could negotiate with them over resource profits, and joint management of key resources. That would be a start. But doing nothing is not an option since the debt we owe them will double in the next 20 years or so. I'm not willing to leave my grandchildren that kind of debt. Nor am I willing to see my GC paying for our inaction. The honour of the Crown demands that we respect our commitments and obligations. Or are you one of those that refuses to abide by the law?

You said TRILLIONS! That means more than one, in case you didn't know. How could we possibly afford to make high enough payments that the interest on the remaining balance wasn't still higher than the payment?

Either your claim of trillions is absurdly high or we could never pay the bill. One or the other. If your claim is true Canada would be like a man in debt to a loan shark, paying interest so high that he can never clear off the debt.

[Wild Bill]

Jerry, we can't change our relationship with First Nations without also destroying what Canada has become. Canada does not want to go to international court, either. Just take a read of the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. Not only would we lose, but we would end up having to pay out what we owe immediately putting us in peril. No, your ignorant solution would destroy Canada (which may not be a bad thing) and open the doors for unregulated corruption, and take-over by the US. I'm sure you wouldn't want that, now would you.....

Canada is a sovereign nation. How on earth are we subject to any ruling from the UN? The same UN that puts Libya in charge of Human Rights? The UN is NOT a world government! They can rule whatever they want! They have no legal way of enforcing a ruling on us. Most of them don't even pay their UN dues anyway so cares what they say? Bums and hypocrites, the lot of them!

As for "destroying what Canada has become", is that not your opinion and not a legal status quo? Perhaps the majority of Canadians would consider some form of change to be a positive thing! Lord knows the status quo has been a dismal failure, except for a few very wealthy chiefs and cigarette manufacturers.

[charter.rights]

You said TRILLIONS! That means more than one, in case you didn't know. How could we possibly afford to make high enough payments that the interest on the remaining balance wasn't still higher than the payment?

Either your claim of trillions is absurdly high or we could never pay the bill. One or the other. If your claim is true Canada would be like a man in debt to a loan shark, paying interest so high that he can never clear off the debt.

"Trillions" it is. Chances are if we counted all the illegal occupations and then added the value to those lands that are occupied illegally and then bought them outright it could easily be in the 10s of trillions of dollars. What we can't do is ignore that we owe it. What is owed to date is recorded and must be accounted for in full.

We do know that the Six Nations trust account on its own merits ruins between $200 billion and $1 trillion. That alone could break the bank of Canada if it were paid out in cash. However, Six Nations has been clear that they are not interested in receiving it all back in cash and would prefer the land and pieces of the resources and development occurring on their unceded land. To me that might be a reasonable compromise, given the fact that they are not against development and development could produce jobs and revenue for the area. So it would be another win-win for Six Nations and Ontarians, as well.

Regardless of whether the money can be paid back in cash or land assets, the reality is we owe the debt to First Nations. Yet people whine and complain about tax payers money being used to pay our debt. Funny, there were not too many that complained about the billions we gave GM or the billions spent on wasteful government spending. Seems the government wants to create more debt not less and it is even funnier that you support that while denying FN what we owe. That would make you pretty much conflicted in your ideology. However I have come to expect that from non-thinking conservative types. The thinking ones know their responsibilities. The blind ones do the complaining but refuse to accept their debts.

[Wild Bill]

Well, let me take you seriously then. Who said that the amounts owed need to be paid back in cash? How about lands and assets?

Hey, for the type of money CR talks about, we'd all have to settle on Ellesmere Island and leave the natives the rest, to square up on that kind of bill.

If you're implying that some sort of negotiation and quid pro quo is possible I would agree that is a rational option. I'm just saying that CR's financial claim is so far out into orbit as to be a mathematical impossibility. This makes his position useless for opening negotiations, like a man going to a Cadillac car lot and starting off by saying "Well, I might go as high as $50..."

The salesman is just not going to waste his time!

[charter.rights]

Canada is a sovereign nation. How on earth are we subject to any ruling from the UN? The same UN that puts Libya in charge of Human Rights? The UN is NOT a world government! They can rule whatever they want! They have no legal way of enforcing a ruling on us. Most of them don't even pay their UN dues anyway so cares what they say? Bums and hypocrites, the lot of them!

As for "destroying what Canada has become", is that not your opinion and not a legal status quo? Perhaps the majority of Canadians would consider some form of change to be a positive thing! Lord knows the status quo has been a dismal failure, except for a few very wealthy chiefs and cigarette manufacturers.

Man are you ever out of touch.

It was Jerry that suggested that we force the natives to take their complaints to the international courts. All things considered the UN Declaration is like the Charter in that the Court would have to considered the rights of Indigenous people in consideration of the lands we have stolen, abused and treatied for but not paid for.

All things considered Canada can't even win a seat on the UN Security Council. What makes anyone think they would find favour in the World Court, especially since the Crown - the Sovereign - admits they are culpable in the theft of land, the genocide perpetrated against aboriginal people and the continued abuse of their rights and freedoms guaranteed under the Charter? We can't win a legal battle we have acknowledged we have failed in the beginning.

[Jack Weber]

Hey, for the type of money CR talks about, we'd all have to settle on Ellesmere Island and leave the natives the rest, to square up on that kind of bill.

If you're implying that some sort of negotiation and quid pro quo is possible I would agree that is a rational option. I'm just saying that CR's financial claim is so far out into orbit as to be a mathematical impossibility. This makes his position useless for opening negotiations, like a man going to a Cadillac car lot and starting off by saying "Well, I might go as high as $50..."

The salesman is just not going to waste his time!

What if it was a rusted out 1984 Cadillac Cimmaron?

[Wild Bill]

All things considered Canada can't even win a seat on the UN Security Council. What makes anyone think they would find favour in the World Court, especially since the Crown - the Sovereign - admits they are culpable in the theft of land, the genocide perpetrated against aboriginal people and the continued abuse of their rights and freedoms guaranteed under the Charter? We can't win a legal battle we have acknowledged we have failed in the beginning.

You completely ignored my main point. If we lost in the World Court, why should we care? What mechanism would force us to accept their ruling? Why on earth would any Canadian politician accede to a World Court ruling if it was unpopular with the majority of potential voters here in Canada?

[charter.rights]

Hey, for the type of money CR talks about, we'd all have to settle on Ellesmere Island and leave the natives the rest, to square up on that kind of bill.

If you're implying that some sort of negotiation and quid pro quo is possible I would agree that is a rational option. I'm just saying that CR's financial claim is so far out into orbit as to be a mathematical impossibility. This makes his position useless for opening negotiations, like a man going to a Cadillac car lot and starting off by saying "Well, I might go as high as $50..."

The salesman is just not going to waste his time!

I can tell you they wouldn't accept Ellesmere Island.

What you seem to forget is that they hold the superior position. So any negotiation for settlement wold see our side looking for crumbs. It is OUR debt. WE OWE THEM. Get it? That makes anything but payment in full open to a negotiation that would see the federal government begging for them to take something else in return. And you can bet it will be no $25 million for a $500 million value property, like the Welland Canal flooding.

I asked this before and I'll ask it again so you can get a good mental picture.

875,000 acres of Six Nations land on the Haldimand Tract was illegally occupied. In 1824 the land was valued at $5.5 per acre. In 1824 dollars that would make the 875,000 acres worth about $5,000,000. Now add compounded interests (the rates are recorded in INAC documents and were fixed each year by an Order In Council until 1980, when the Bank of Canada rates were applied semi-annually). My initial estimates come to about $22 trillion. Maybe you can have a go at it?

Alternatively you could try estimating the fair market value today using cost per acre of rural and cost per urban area, which I believe will multiply the value by tenfold.