Geo Engineering

[Bonam]

If you're such a fan of random video evidence, take a look at this:

Is that someone constantly opening and closing a valve to you?

Edited December 4, 2010 by Bonam

[Radsickle]

If you're such a fan of random video evidence, take a look at this:

Is that someone constantly opening and closing a valve to you?

Thanks for that visual representation of what you described earlier. Yes, that is definitely a condensation trail. Well done. I watched the whole thing!

But it has nothing to do with the video evidence of the curious chemtrails I cited.

[GostHacked]

Umm, when a plane transitions into a region of appropriate humidity or pressure, it can start to form condensation trails where before it was not forming any. This can happen almost instantly, as you describe, as if someone "flipped a switch". That's because water condensing from its vapor to liquid phase due to the pressure drop caused by the plane's passage is a process that either happens or does not happen, there is a precise threshold value. Either the pressure drop is sufficient, or it is not. The plane could be passing through a region of increasing humidity, for example. On one side of a given point in the air, the humidity is just a tad too low, on the other side it is a tad past the threshold. The moment it passes it, instantly, the condensation trails will start to form.

Hey I am more than willing to accept any natural phenomenon for these persistent trails. Because if they are real chemtrails (which I am fairly convinced that they are real) that has major consequences and impacts the planet on the whole. But so far I have not seen or heard anything that can explain these trails through any natural explanation/phenomenon. It may not happen all the time where you are, and it does not happen all the time here in Ottawa. It does not seem to have a relation between weather conditions and the trails. Not that I can tell so far, and I've been observing it for some time. The videos on my youtube channel shows Nov 12 of this year. Nov 10 and 11 had same conditions and no trails at all in the sky. I was out both days and nothing but normal quickly disappearing contrails. The 12th was drastically different.

It's not like the government has not openly experimented on the general population before. We find out about it a couple decades later after the fact. That alone should say something.

The movie Radsickle is talking about is free online on youtube and chucked out because of their terms of service.

Part 1. (then you can follow from there)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-K9rXydMmfw

At least check out part one and see if you want to watch the rest of the clips.

I am with Radsickle as well with his concern. I don't want to be the tinfoil hat guy myself, but I am pointing this out to friends and family and most are saying I am crazy. Some watch the clips and then ask more questions. And they come up with the questions I have. What is it all for? The only connection I can make so far is geo-engineering to combat global warming. Could it be something different? Sure, but what? I don't have the answers and this is why I am looking.

The clip you posted Bonam did show condensation vapor. No doubt about it. That looked like one really wet day and that is expected and very normal. But I ask you to check out this clip. Not sure how the hell this one was filmed (could be a very elaborate hoax, but this hoax would be kinda hard to pull off).... You can see the ON .. OFF here.

This is one of the best clips I have seen so far that shows the on off. I've taken footage myself with the on off .. but not that close or in that much detail!! ....

Here is the second video I did, on my lunch break over at the Science and Tech museum here in Ottawa on the 12h of Nov facing west. This one shows normal contrails and these 'chemtrails' in the same video. Near the end is where you can see a nice comparison of the two.

Edited December 4, 2010 by GostHacked

[GostHacked]

you deny an AGW related problem exists... while forcefully advocating for "toxic pollution" cleanup... simplistically suggesting that combating "toxic pollution" will, indirectly, "just take care of CO2" (that you don't accept as a problem - huh!). All of this done in the context of a geo-engineering impetus. You present reams of linked articles that presume to suggest, collectively, some conspiratorial angle to active/ongoing geo-engineering.

Just because I don't think it is a problem does not mean others don't. People are always finding solutions and experimenting with solutions to a problem that does not exist. If this is a proposed solution by those who support and believe in AGW then this has some major implications for you (AGW believers) and me (AGW deniers). It does not matter what our stance is on it Waldo, it affects us BOTH.

And it no longer becomes a conspiracy when the information is right there on government websites. You just need to do a bit of digging and find the right information. It's out there. And again I must point out that this technology and method of spraying has existed since the 1940s. So people have had lots of time to experiment with this. And there are private companies out there that you can hire for cloud seeding.

1 - IF these are legit government websites, then the information on those sites are very real.

2 - If it is a fake government website, then someone is being fraudulent against the government by impersonating them. That as far as I know is a federal offense that can get serious jail time.

3- If this is a real government website with fake information, then what is the purpose in that? Disinformation operation?

Those are the 3 scenarios I can narrow it down to. Which one is correct?

you deny an AGW related problem exists... that any problem exists (other than what you choose to label as "toxic pollution"). What's your personal purpose/intent/agenda in initiating a thread on geo-engineering... on a concept with a sole purpose intended to combat the worst case scenarios of climate change... related to projections on a problem that you state doesn't exist... that you don't accept. Suffice to say, your charade has been exposed.

Waldo, there is no charade here. You can believe I am trolling you if you wish, that is not my problem. My agenda is to find out what the hell all that stuff is. If those certain chemicals are being used, has there been any studies about short-long term impact on the environment due to this chemical spraying? It eventually trickles down to the ground and then can get into the soil, the water, and it's already in the air we breath. Think about that for a moment. I mean put your hate for me aside and really think about that for one moment. That is all I ask. IF you don't have any other questions after that, then you can go back to bashing me all you want. I'll take my lumps.

[GostHacked]

More interesting reading for those interested. It's a long read too.. ugh.

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200910/cmselect/cmsctech/221/221.pdf

Article that indicates that there has been testing of several techniques already to mitigate AGW.

There are three reasons why, we believe, regulation is needed. First, in the future some

geoengineering techniques may allow a single country unilaterally to affect the climate.

Second, some—albeit very small scale—geoengineering testing is already underway. Third,

we may need geoengineering as a “Plan B” if, in the event of the failure of “Plan A”—the

reduction of greenhouse gases—we are faced with highly disruptive climate change. If we

start work now it will provide the opportunity to explore fully the technological,

environmental, political and regulatory issues.

25. These techniques are in use to precipitate rain and to suppress precipitation and hail.54

Dr James Lee, from the American University, Washington DC, pointed out in his

memorandum that cloud seeding was first scientifically demonstrated in 194655 and “is a

geoengineering tool that is widely used by more than 30 countries” and that with climate

change, fresh water resources will be in decline in many parts of the world and one “result

may be an increase in the use of cloud seeding”.56 He cited the example of China, whose:

cloud seeding program is the largest in the world, using it to make rain, prevent

hailstorms, contribute to firefighting, and to counteract dust storms. On New Year’s

Day in 1997, cloud seeding made snow in Beijing, for probably no other reason than

popular enjoyment. During the 2008 Olympics, China extensively used cloud

seeding to improve air quality. China sees cloud seeding as part of a larger strategy to

lower summer temperatures and save energy.57

26. Dr Lee drew a distinction between climate change and weather:

since cloud seeding is more likely to affect the latter. Weather is a state of the

atmosphere over the short-term and more likely at specific points and places.

Climate is a long-term phenomenon expressed as average weather patterns over a

long period. Cloud seeding could affect climate when carried out over a long period.

Key measures of weather and climate are precipitation and temperature.58

[Bonam]

Hey I am more than willing to accept any natural phenomenon for these persistent trails. Because if they are real chemtrails (which I am fairly convinced that they are real) that has major consequences and impacts the planet on the whole. But so far I have not seen or heard anything that can explain these trails through any natural explanation/phenomenon. It may not happen all the time where you are, and it does not happen all the time here in Ottawa. It does not seem to have a relation between weather conditions and the trails. Not that I can tell so far, and I've been observing it for some time. The videos on my youtube channel shows Nov 12 of this year. Nov 10 and 11 had same conditions and no trails at all in the sky. I was out both days and nothing but normal quickly disappearing contrails. The 12th was drastically different.

It's not like the government has not openly experimented on the general population before. We find out about it a couple decades later after the fact. That alone should say something.

The movie Radsickle is talking about is free online on youtube and chucked out because of their terms of service.

Part 1. (then you can follow from there)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-K9rXydMmfw

At least check out part one and see if you want to watch the rest of the clips.

I am with Radsickle as well with his concern. I don't want to be the tinfoil hat guy myself, but I am pointing this out to friends and family and most are saying I am crazy. Some watch the clips and then ask more questions. And they come up with the questions I have. What is it all for? The only connection I can make so far is geo-engineering to combat global warming. Could it be something different? Sure, but what? I don't have the answers and this is why I am looking.

The clip you posted Bonam did show condensation vapor. No doubt about it. That looked like one really wet day and that is expected and very normal. But I ask you to check out this clip. Not sure how the hell this one was filmed (could be a very elaborate hoax, but this hoax would be kinda hard to pull off).... You can see the ON .. OFF here.

This is one of the best clips I have seen so far that shows the on off. I've taken footage myself with the on off .. but not that close or in that much detail!! ....

Nice clip GhostHacked, it does indeed show this in great detail. What you see there is a KC-10 fuel tanker aircraft. If you look at the photo here:

http://www.tpuc.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=158935&sid=6d0cde89ae4d8279a3d94e71da2acd42

(I'd ignore the pretty idiotic forum posts under the photo)

You can see that what is labelled in the video you linked as "nozzles" are not in fact nozzles but vertical fins on the underside of the wing. Due to their shapes, those aerodynamic surfaces produce very powerful tip vortices. Wikipedia has an excellent page with many illustrative pictures on wingtip vortices:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wingtip_vortices

The trails you see are the results of those vortices, as can also be seen in several of the wikipedia pics. Additionally, fuel tankers and other aircraft do sometimes have to dump fuel. Sometimes, an aircraft may have to dump fuel while circling over an aircraft. When that happens, it may look like it is "spraying" something into the air, though that is not what was happening in this video.

Here is the second video I did, on my lunch break over at the Science and Tech museum here in Ottawa on the 12h of Nov facing west. This one shows normal contrails and these 'chemtrails' in the same video. Near the end is where you can see a nice comparison of the two.

Nice, you must have a pretty good camera to get zoom and focus like that. Anyway, it seems like the point you are making in the video is that some of the trails fade relatively quickly behind the plane, while others remain in the sky for a much longer period. You make the assertion that the longer-lived trails are "chemtrails" while the quick-fading ones are normal trails.

Personally, I believe there is a simpler explanation, though I can't say anything for sure given the information visible in the video. When there is no wind, or the wind is all blowing very uniformly, a trail that is generated in the sky will stay where it is or drift all together in the same direction. In such conditions, it can last for a long time, only diffusing slowly through the air or re-evaporating. However, if the wind field is non-uniform, the trail will quickly be blown in varying directions and disperse, disappearing quickly in the wake of the aircraft. Even on relatively clear days like the one you filmed, there can be significant wind shear in the atmosphere, meaning that wind conditions are very different from one altitude to another. Each of the planes you filmed was flying at somewhat different altitudes. Hence, some of the could be flying through areas of no-wind or uniform-wind, while others could be flying through areas of varying wind, explaining the difference in the behavior of the trails.

Also, differences in altitude correlate with differences in temperature, pressure, and humidity of the atmosphere, which all affect the behavior of these trails. And, furthermore, as trails spread out they become more diffuse, and if they are far enough away then once they start diffusing they may have too low of a contrast against the background to be visible using your camera, whereas closer ones can be clearly made out. Anyway, I can say that none of the trails in the video look particularly suspicious to me.

Edited December 7, 2010 by Bonam

[GostHacked]

Nice clip GhostHacked, it does indeed show this in great detail. What you see there is a KC-10 fuel tanker aircraft. If you look at the photo here:

http://www.tpuc.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=158935&sid=6d0cde89ae4d8279a3d94e71da2acd42

(I'd ignore the pretty idiotic forum posts under the photo)

You can see that what is labelled in the video you linked as "nozzles" are not in fact nozzles but vertical fins on the underside of the wing. Due to their shapes, those aerodynamic surfaces produce very powerful tip vortices. Wikipedia has an excellent page with many illustrative pictures on wingtip vortices:

Why does it seem that stuff is coming out of those nozzles? Why does it show an on-off again type of thing? The one thing that seems to give it away is that some of these flight paths are perpendicular to normal civilian air traffic. In many cases after a few passes these planes create a grid patter in the sky. And that is not normal.

Contrails form some length behind the engines, (not directly out of them) and that tanker has stuff coming right from the wings through those 'nozzles' and not out of the engines. I mean the colours are fantastic when looking at this.

I'll post some of the clips I think are the best I have seen so far later (youtube blocked at work). Might give you a better idea of how they fly in the air.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wingtip_vortices

The trails you see are the results of those vortices, as can also be seen in several of the wikipedia pics. Additionally, fuel tankers and other aircraft do sometimes have to dump fuel. Sometimes, an aircraft may have to dump fuel while circling over an aircraft. When that happens, it may look like it is "spraying" something into the air, though that is not what was happening in this video.

Yes I am familiar with wing tip vortices, part of the reason the wing tips of most commercial aircraft have a small winglet almost 90 degrees to the wing itself now.

Nice, you must have a pretty good camera to get zoom and focus like that. Anyway, it seems like the point you are making in the video is that some of the trails fade relatively quickly behind the plane, while others remain in the sky for a much longer period. You make the assertion that the longer-lived trails are "chemtrails" while the quick-fading ones are normal trails.

I've got other shots of two planes close together same flight path, one trail goes across the sky and the other one has a short trail. Looked like the same type of aircraft for both, but why do they produce such different results? And yeah I had spent some money on a good HD camera.

What is more interesting is in the first vid I did on my site, is the one craft appearing near a plane and tracking right. The video does not show it because it's in low quality. I'll have to edit the one clip just to show the craft and upload that in HD. Now I am not inclined to think this is an alien craft as more of a military UAV. The plane could be a platform for these little drones or UAVs. Other than that no real explanation for them. I'll get that one up tonight.

Personally, I believe there is a simpler explanation, though I can't say anything for sure given the information visible in the video. When there is no wind, or the wind is all blowing very uniformly, a trail that is generated in the sky will stay where it is or drift all together in the same direction. In such conditions, it can last for a long time, only diffusing slowly through the air or re-evaporating. However, if the wind field is non-uniform, the trail will quickly be blown in varying directions and disperse, disappearing quickly in the wake of the aircraft. Even on relatively clear days like the one you filmed, there can be significant wind shear in the atmosphere, meaning that wind conditions are very different from one altitude to another. Each of the planes you filmed was flying at somewhat different altitudes. Hence, some of the could be flying through areas of no-wind or uniform-wind, while others could be flying through areas of varying wind, explaining the difference in the behavior of the trails.

One basic tenant to how clouds form is that they need particles in the air for the moisture to grab onto and accumulate. These trails don't seem to correlate with any weather conditions, they happen in all sorts of weather. It's not consistent to me at all.

Also, differences in altitude correlate with differences in temperature, pressure, and humidity of the atmosphere, which all affect the behavior of these trails. And, furthermore, as trails spread out they become more diffuse, and if they are far enough away then once they start diffusing they may have too low of a contrast against the background to be visible using your camera, whereas closer ones can be clearly made out. Anyway, I can say that none of the trails in the video look particularly suspicious to me.

I'll post other clips like I said, but yeah I would love to believe these are natural. But I really don't recall seeing these things when I was a kid. Wanting to be a pilot in my younger days I was always looking up.

At least keep an open mind about this. I am doing this more for me to understand it all. And being skeptic is good, it is exactly what I need. And some of you might think of things I had not. Another reason why I made this thread.

Edited December 7, 2010 by GostHacked

[wyly]

I'll post other clips like I said, but yeah I would love to believe these are natural. But I really don't recall seeing these things when I was a kid. Wanting to be a pilot in my younger days I was always looking up.

when you were a kid?...are you a hundred years old?...contrails have been around a long, long time...I'd guess I'm older than you and they were quite common when I was a kid and long before I was born as well....

At least keep an open mind about this. I am doing this more for me to understand it all. And being skeptic is good, it is exactly what I need. And some of you might think of things I had not. Another reason why I made this thread.

you haven't really presented any viable evidence yet ghost, it can all have alternate explanations...

[GostHacked]

when you were a kid?...are you a hundred years old?...contrails have been around a long, long time...I'd guess I'm older than you and they were quite common when I was a kid and long before I was born as well....

I wont argue that contrails have been around since we started the high flying. They are natural and easily explainable. The so called 'chemtrails' do not behave like contrails. The fact it can only take a few passes by these planes which eventually create a wide cloud cover near the end of the day. If that is the case, then emissions out of aircraft need to be fixed, because damn, that's a lot of pollution in the air.

Check out some youtube vids, there are a lot of people showing much of the same thing. Some are garbage vids yes, but the ones that strike me the most are the huge grid patterns some of them show.

you haven't really presented any viable evidence yet ghost, it can all have alternate explanations...

Perhaps not yet. I could be completely wrong in the end, but to me it's not normal. Sometimes you see the trails in my area running north south, perpendicular to normal civilian air traffic which goes east to west.

Being skeptical is good.

But why don't we see them every day like I see normal contrails every day?

Why do we see the X's and grid patterns in the sky?

Why can you see an example of a contrail and 'chemtrail' in the same clip? (Many clips online show just that).

It may be hard to judge but sometimes I see these air craft create the trails at less than 20,000 feet. Contrails are supposed to form from about 20,000 and up.

[wyly]

I wont argue that contrails have been around since we started the high flying. They are natural and easily explainable. The so called 'chemtrails' do not behave like contrails. The fact it can only take a few passes by these planes which eventually create a wide cloud cover near the end of the day. If that is the case, then emissions out of aircraft need to be fixed, because damn, that's a lot of pollution in the air.

no doubt there are a lot of emissions but at the end of the day you can't prove what they are...

Check out some youtube vids, there are a lot of people showing much of the same thing. Some are garbage vids yes, but the ones that strike me the most are the huge grid patterns some of them show.

Perhaps not yet. I could be completely wrong in the end, but to me it's not normal. Sometimes you see the trails in my area running north south, perpendicular to normal civilian air traffic which goes east to west.

depending on where you live there are varying numbers of contrails, eastern Canada and US will see large numbers compared to what I see in alberta and the grid pattern is dependent on wind direction and flight destinations...the contrails won't be static they move, a plane flying the same route will not have a contrail in the same spot...

and not all civilian traffic goes east west, my direct flights to europe are polar...

But why don't we see them every day like I see normal contrails every day?

Why do we see the X's and grid patterns in the sky?

Why can you see an example of a contrail and 'chemtrail' in the same clip? (Many clips online show just that).

what's a normal contrail...planes follow beacons to their destination some go north, south, east and west patterns are bound to appear with fixed regular flights...

It may be hard to judge but sometimes I see these air craft create the trails at less than 20,000 feet. Contrails are supposed to form from about 20,000 and up.

conditions change, my brother the pilot used to tell me how in winter it could be -30 on the ground and above freezing where he was flying...a difference in altitude of only 500 ft can bring different temp, wind speed, direction... Edited December 8, 2010 by wyly

[GostHacked]

no doubt there are a lot of emissions but at the end of the day you can't prove what they are...

Well, i'll do my best to find out what they are. There is a difference, one just needs to observe for some time.

depending on where you live there are varying numbers of contrails, eastern Canada and US will see large numbers compared to what I see in alberta and the grid pattern is dependent on wind direction and flight destinations...the contrails won't be static they move, a plane flying the same route will not have a contrail in the same spot...

and not all civilian traffic goes east west, my direct flights to europe are polar...

Well I am not sure how often northern canadian cities need multiple 747s to service them. Most routes north are smaller twin engine prop craft.

But I have a shot of two planes following the same path, I mean they are both in my view tracking south east, they are a couple KMs apart.. again one has the loooooog trail, the other is short and disapears quickly.

what's a normal contrail...planes follow beacons to their destination some go north, south, east and west patterns are bound to appear with fixed regular flights...

Again, the norther parts of Canada are not serviced by 737s, 747s, or even the likes of an Arbus A320.

conditions change, my brother the pilot used to tell me how in winter it could be -30 on the ground and above freezing where he was flying...a difference in altitude of only 500 ft can bring different temp, wind speed, direction...

Indeed conditions do change.

Here is the clip of that uav/ufo i uploaded last night.

Watch in HD if you can.

[wyly]

Well I am not sure how often northern canadian cities need multiple 747s to service them. Most routes north are smaller twin engine prop craft.

direct flights to europe fly north over the arctic...not east west...more like north, north/east...or asia, direct north or north, north/west...

But I have a shot of two planes following the same path, I mean they are both in my view tracking south east, they are a couple KMs apart.. again one has the loooooog trail, the other is short and disapears quickly.

are they at the exact same altitude? from the ground you will not be able to tell... are they the same model of plane with exactly the same engine characteristics?... flight control centers instruct planes to fly a different altitudes to avoid potential collisions...different altitudes will result in different temps, windspeed and wind direction...

Again, the norther parts of Canada are not serviced by 737s, 747s, or even the likes of an Arbus A320.

is northern canada the only possible destination??? I've flown both an airbus, a 737 and a number of other multi engined planes north over the arctic/Baffin Island/Greenland to europe...from toronto to Beijing the route is polar/north then add all the other major americans cities that will send flights north to the same destination...this link has edmonton guiding up to 35 polar flights per day to asia in 2007...add in all the east west traffic that uses edmonton as a beacon and you can get a nice grid pattern...

download google earth and you see the most direct and quickest routes to europe and asia from N america is north, not east and west

Edited December 9, 2010 by wyly

[GostHacked]

direct flights to europe fly north over the arctic...not east west...more like north, north/east...or asia, direct north or north, north/west...

Well, turns out that you are correct. I know they go in a northern direction. But over Ottawa it would be more of a north east direction.

are they at the exact same altitude? from the ground you will not be able to tell... are they the same model of plane with exactly the same engine characteristics?... flight control centers instruct planes to fly a different altitudes to avoid potential collisions...different altitudes will result in different temps, windspeed and wind direction...

I'll try to upload those other videos over the next week. You can judge them for yourself. Yes it's more than likely at different altitudes, but you can make out the shape of both planes and see that they are the same craft and fairly close to each other because they look about the same size on the video.

Ignore the title of this website and check out the pics.

http://freeordie.org/what-are-chemtrails/ The second one is a little more .. obvious. I have not checked out the vids on this site yet.

[GostHacked]

More interesting stuff on this topic.

http://www.cbc.ca/documentaries/doczone/2010/playinggod/index.html

I have not seen the video yet, i'll have to check it out at home..... interesting.

[GostHacked]

More links for those who are interested.

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/051031_mystery_monday.html

http://csat.au.af.mil/2025/volume3/vol3ch15.pdf

[GostHacked]

Looks like the Canadian Government is ready to experiment with it.

http://laws.justice.gc.ca/eng/C.R.C.-C.1604/FullText.html

[WIP]

More links for those who are interested.

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/051031_mystery_monday.html

http://csat.au.af.mil/2025/volume3/vol3ch15.pdf

Something's wrong with your first link. The 2nd one just illustrates how dangerously delusional people with power and authority are! So, they think they are going to "own the weather by 2025." Do I need to point out that scientists who started experimenting with cloud-seeding back in the 60's thought they were going to own the weather too? The experiments with rain-making and hurricane modification led to disastrous and unanticipated results; so the experiments were scrapped...except for those that were conducted covertly according to some sources.

The recent cold weather of the last two years (especially in Europe) should be enough to serve as a warning that we don't have any idea what the hell we are doing by increasing greenhouse gas levels, and trying to counterbalance them artificially. This cold snap has come from something that climate modelers hadn't predicted before -- instead of the usual low pressure dome that hangs over the Arctic Ocean during the average winter, for the last two years, we are seeing Arctic high pressure cells that are blowing the cold air down on us. Now the climatologists and meteorologists are trying to figure out reasons why it is happening: Cold winter in a world of warming? Whatever the reason is, it should serve as a warning to attempts at geo-engineering and notions such as presented at the Copenhagen Climate Summit -- that everything will be okay as long as we limit the rise in global average temperatures to 2 degrees. The real story is that we may already be past a tipping point, and not even be aware of it yet. The only long term solution is to stop doing the crap we're doing now and be willing to sacrifice an economic system that is not going to be sustainable in the longterm anyway -- because of the decline in available cheap, easy-to-access oil.

[GostHacked]

Something's wrong with your first link. The 2nd one just illustrates how dangerously delusional people with power and authority are! So, they think they are going to "own the weather by 2025." Do I need to point out that scientists who started experimenting with cloud-seeding back in the 60's thought they were going to own the weather too? The experiments with rain-making and hurricane modification led to disastrous and unanticipated results; so the experiments were scrapped...except for those that were conducted covertly according to some sources.

Cloud seeding was just the start. Event hough that has been happening in some form for about 100 years now. Cloud seeding dates back the the late 1800s actually

There are conflicting reports online, that say the first successful cloud seeding was done in 1945, then another one indicating it was in 1923.

The recent cold weather of the last two years (especially in Europe) should be enough to serve as a warning that we don't have any idea what the hell we are doing by increasing greenhouse gas levels, and trying to counterbalance them artificially.

No arguments here, but it never accounts for those who will try anything.

This cold snap has come from something that climate modelers hadn't predicted before -- instead of the usual low pressure dome that hangs over the Arctic Ocean during the average winter, for the last two years, we are seeing Arctic high pressure cells that are blowing the cold air down on us. Now the climatologists and meteorologists are trying to figure out reasons why it is happening: Cold winter in a world of warming? Whatever the reason is, it should serve as a warning to attempts at geo-engineering and notions such as presented at the Copenhagen Climate Summit -- that everything will be okay as long as we limit the rise in global average temperatures to 2 degrees. The real story is that we may already be past a tipping point, and not even be aware of it yet. The only long term solution is to stop doing the crap we're doing now and be willing to sacrifice an economic system that is not going to be sustainable in the longterm anyway -- because of the decline in available cheap, easy-to-access oil.

I put the one sentence in bold. Because if we are past that tipping point, then geo-engineering is already taking place. The rest of us won't be consulted of advised until the programs are already in place.

Here is the CBC documentary on youtube, CBC's page with the videos just suck, vid plays, commercial played over top a couple mins in ,, and the video goes to crap. They need to fix their media streaming.

4 parts

[GostHacked]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1360065/Nasas-Glory-Satellite--434m-launch-abandoned-5-minutes-off.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

Satellite was designed to monitor the effects of aerosols in the atmosphere, naturally occuring and man made aerosols.

http://glory.gsfc.nasa.gov/images/505386main_GLORY%20508%20newsletter.pdf

[GostHacked]

Something of interest for this thread.

http://www.vancouversun.com/life/Aircraft+contrails+stoke+warming+cloud+formation/4522307/story.html

OSLO — Aircraft condensation trails criss-crossing the sky may be warming the planet on a normal day more than the carbon dioxide emitted by all planes since the Wright Brothers’ first flight in 1903, a study said on Tuesday.

It indicated that contrails — white lines of vapour left by jet engines — also have big knock-on effects by adding to the formation of high-altitude, heat-trapping cirrus clouds as the lines break up.

The findings may help governments fix penalties on planes’ greenhouse gas emissions in a UN-led assault on climate change. Or new engines might be designed to limit vapour and instead spit out water drops or ice that fall from the sky.

"Aircraft condensation trails and the clouds that form from them may be causing more warming today than all the aircraft-emitted carbon dioxide (CO2) that has accumulated in the atmosphere since the start of aviation," the journal Nature Climate Change said in a statement of the findings.

[RNG]

Look up the absorbtion coeficient of CO2 and that of water. Water is the evil lizard in the equasion. Post 9/11, and after the Iceland volcano when air traffic was curtailed there was a noticable cooling of the atmosphere. Stop irrigation, kill domestic animals (who breath water vapour and piss lots etc). Come to think of it, kill people too. CO2 ain't the problem, it's water.