Natives have right too says Canada

[charter.rights]

That is not Sustenance Hunter by the law. Hunting licence doesn't licence you to sell game or fish.

A commercial license does.

[Saipan]

A commercial license does.

Never seen hunt moose commercially.

Google Sustenance hunting, fishing, and trapping.

[Popeye]

It's been a while since I've checked in on this forum, but may as well start commenting right here.

On the off chance that anyone hasn't noticed, natives have rights too. Im not sure why this comes as a surprise to some, but it appears to offend the ofactory of some. Read the Charter. Check Constitutional law. And then take a deep breath.

Contrary to what some may believe, they do not always live in better conditions than others and often, too often, they and their families live in conditions that i wouldn't leave my dog in quite frankly. So quit with the "they have it better than us" BS.

Has anyone ever wondered why there are sections in the Charter specific to the original people when that blessed and heralded document was signed into ownership in "Canada" with the Crown penning a signature?

Yes, Natives have rights too. In the moment that any 'Canadian' wants to remove or take them away, then they best be prepared to have their own rights removed as well.

How does that sit/fit?

[Wild Bill]

It's been a while since I've checked in on this forum, but may as well start commenting right here.

On the off chance that anyone hasn't noticed, natives have rights too. Im not sure why this comes as a surprise to some, but it appears to offend the ofactory of some. Read the Charter. Check Constitutional law. And then take a deep breath.

Contrary to what some may believe, they do not always live in better conditions than others and often, too often, they and their families live in conditions that i wouldn't leave my dog in quite frankly. So quit with the "they have it better than us" BS.

Has anyone ever wondered why there are sections in the Charter specific to the original people when that blessed and heralded document was signed into ownership in "Canada" with the Crown penning a signature?

Yes, Natives have rights too. In the moment that any 'Canadian' wants to remove or take them away, then they best be prepared to have their own rights removed as well.

How does that sit/fit?

Popeye, you really should read the whole thread before you just jump in blind, making assumptions and preaching to the air.

Nobody has claimed that natives have no rights. No one has claimed that some bands don't live in terrible conditions. No one is talking about taking any rights away.

You put an army of straw men in your post!

The issue is that SOME native supporters have made claims that natives have hunting rights far beyond what the courts have ruled, in effect that natives can hunt anywhere and anytime, including not just crown but private land!

This has been the tone of a number of threads regarding native issues. Mostly, they have revolved around the Caledonia process as an example of how native protesters went too far. Still, you yourself in your post are generalizing, as if all natives in all bands anywhere in the country are the same. They most certainly are not! They are all individuals, with different issues and values. Some of them might very well disagree with the hunting claims posted in this thread!

If you want to join in on the debate it would be nice if you took the trouble to note what people are actually debating about.

[AngusThermopyle]

I've been doing a little research and hunting on line and so far have been unable to find any references to commercial hunting in Canada other than that applicable to the seal hunt. Perhaps someone else might have more success in finding these references to Native commercial hunting licenses?

[Saipan]

Yes, Natives have rights too.

More than any other race.

In the moment that any 'Canadian' wants to remove or take them away, then they best be prepared to have their own rights removed as well.

Which rights were removed? Or even discuss removing?

Edited December 1, 2010 by Saipan

[charter.rights]

More than any other race.

Nope. The Charter of Rights and Freedoms protects their rights just like it protects ours. They have the same rights as us, except because of their nationality (not race based) as First Nations the Charter also protects them from the tyranny of the majority, or from being strip of their inherent and inalienable rights because some people like you prefer racism to education.

Which rights were removed? Or even discuss removing?

The very fact that we have over the centuries abused, ignored and obfuscated aboriginal rights to our benefit is evidence of attempts to remove their rights.

[AngusThermopyle]

They have the same rights as us, except because of their nationality (not race based)

Not to be facetious but exactly what nationality are Natives?

The very fact that we have over the centuries abused, ignored and obfuscated aboriginal rights to our benefit is evidence of attempts to remove their rights.

So in effect you are saying that no rights have been removed from Natives?

Also, could you point us towards references to these Native commercial hunting licences? As I mentioned before I haven't had any success in finding them.

Edited December 1, 2010 by AngusThermopyle

[Saipan]

Nope. The Charter of Rights and Freedoms protects their rights just like it protects ours.

So there are different rights based on race?

They have the same rights as us, except because of their nationality (not race based)

So why is debating it consider "racist", as the indians themself claim? So there is the "except" right?

as First Nations the Charter also protects them from the tyranny of the majority, or from being strip of their inherent and inalienable rights because some people like you prefer racism to education.

1) Castes like First, Second etc..... flies in countries like India.

2) In Europe it's considered racist and all people there have the same rights. First, Second or Third. Never mind the the fact that who was on first is open to debate. Ask Castelo.

3) My inherited right to fish and hunt as I please on this planet have been gradually removed. Even right to my property was removed by socialist snakes like P.E. Trudeau. But not for long.....

[Shwa]

So there are different rights based on race?

No, nationality. You're not getting it.

So why is debating it consider "racist", as the indians themself claim? So there is the "except" right?

You're not getting it.

1) Castes like First, Second etc..... flies in countries like India.

There are not castes in Canada.

2) In Europe it's considered racist and all people there have the same rights. First, Second or Third. Never mind the the fact that who was on first is open to debate. Ask Castelo.

Ask the guy in prison if he as the "same rights."

3) My inherited right to fish and hunt as I please on this planet have been gradually removed. Even right to my property was removed by socialist snakes like P.E. Trudeau. But not for long.....

You never had an inherited right to fish and hunt as you please on this planet and your property rights are dependent on the law as it is.

One right you do have - which you seem to exercise often - is the right to delude yourself. In this, you are a shining example of such a right.

[bjre]

3) My inherited right to fish and hunt as I please on this planet have been gradually removed. Even right to my property was removed by socialist snakes like P.E. Trudeau. But not for long.....

Bankers rob interest with nothing, but there aren't many bankers, did not see any First Nation guy be a banker.

Farmers feed transfer-gene, chemical fertilized crop to feed chickens and cattle, did not see many First Nation guy afford to do that large scale modern farming.

What First nation want is only live on their hand and live their own life, old but environment friendly, simple but happy.

But greedy industry bosses tell them their life style will be removed from this planet, all must eat junk food, all most rob others, otherwise when others rob you, you will not be able to survive.

Edited December 1, 2010 by bjre

[Saipan]

did not see any First Nation guy be a banker.

They specialize in tax free Casinos and milking the taxpayers.

did not see many First Nation guy afford to do that large scale modern farming.

They don't cork the bottle long enough to start working. How do you think Europeans, like say Ukrainians farmers did it?

What First nation want is only live on their hand and live their own life, old but environment friendly, simple but happy.

They often strive to get fat and diabetes.

Edited December 1, 2010 by Saipan

[charter.rights]

Not to be facetious but exactly what nationality are Natives?

Mohawk, Seneca, Choctaw, Ojibwa, Algonquin, Abenaki to name a few.

So in effect you are saying that no rights have been removed from Natives?

Rights denied are rights removed.

Also, could you point us towards references to these Native commercial hunting licences? As I mentioned before I haven't had any success in finding them.

Ontario Hunting Lodges, Camps, and Outfitters and Resorts

These are commercial hunting operations. There are many where the resort owners and guides are aboriginal as well.

[charter.rights]

...did not see any First Nation guy be a banker.

Peace Hills Trust

No, I'm pretty sure that native people fill all professions.

What First nation want is only live on their hand and live their own life, old but environment friendly, simple but happy.

First Nations want what most people want - success and security. They want to do it their own way however, outside of the interference of government and the police state that tries to keep them down and disadvantaged.

But greedy industry bosses tell them their life style will be removed from this planet, all must eat junk food, all most rob others, otherwise when others rob you, you will not be able to survive.

Yes. The failures of society start at the top - the Prime Minister and his government, corporations and big business who have no regard for the law or the rights of Canadians.

[charter.rights]

They specialize in tax free Casinos and milking the taxpayers.

I'm still not sure whether you are just dense or you are really that stupid. First Nations are involved in every profession, including the Armed Forces. Taxpayers are getting milked by the government and big corporations who ignore our rights. We OWE First Nations 100 times more than they have every received from us and it is unlikely that we will ever pay them back in full in the next 10 generations.

They don't cork the bottle long enough to start working. How do you think Europeans, like say Ukrainians farmers did it?

Another stupid and mentally retarded statement. Early Europeans had pissed and shit in their water for so long that it was undrinkable and when they first came here were drinking beer (and giving it to their children). They spent most their time in the early years being stone drunk or stone on ergot infested rye.

They often strive to get fat and diabetes.

Time for invocation:

FOAD Dumb ass.

[Saipan]

I'm still not sure whether you are just dense or you are really that stupid.

But you can be sure I won't join you in any name calling matches. I leave that to the likes of you.

Taxpayers are getting milked by the government and big corporations who ignore our rights.

Everyone pay taxes - except the leaches. My rights do not depend on any corporation. Everyone has only one vote.

We OWE First Nations 100 times more than they have every received from

Maybe you do. I don't. To me they are drag on the economy, a deadwood.

Early Europeans had pissed and shit in their water for so long that it was undrinkable and when they first came here were drinking beer (and giving it to their children). They spent most their time in the early years being stone drunk or stone on ergot infested rye.

So why is it that it's the idians who are drunk, their kids inhale glue, and piss in their water and complain it's undrikable?

Edited December 1, 2010 by Saipan

[AngusThermopyle]

I think I must have misunderstood your earlier post. It appeared that you were saying that Natives can take game commercially and sell it with an appropriate license. What you show here is not the same thing at all.

Ontario Hunting Lodges, Camps, and Outfitters and Resorts

These are commercial hunting operations. There are many where the resort owners and guides are aboriginal as well.

These are camps, guides and outfitters. As such they do not have licenses to hunt commercially. Any who use their services must be in possesion of their own license to take the appropriate game. These outfits are not permitted to go and take,for example, 20 Moose or 30 Deer and then sell the meat. They are however licensed to provide services to legally licensed guests. I've used the services of these types of outfits more than a few times myself. The same applies to fishing camps, I've used some of those in Ontario and a few in BC as well.

[Wild Bill]

To me they are drag on the economy, a deadwood.

So why is it that it's the idians who are drunk, their kids inhale glue, and piss in their water and complain it's undrikable?

Not all, Saipan. Perhaps not even a majority. As said before, there are many different bands living on very different reserves. They are NOT all the same!

However, you are absolutely correct that SOME are EXACTLY as you describe!

All of us have little or no control over the cards Life deals to us but we have TOTAL control over how we play them!

There are very progressive reserves in Canada that do quite well for themselves. They have the same problems with the Indian Act and the outright loopiness of the governments they have to deal with as any other band but somehow they've found more positive ways than others.

Personally, I think those bands that are abandoning their Indian Act protection in order to have the right to property will do far better than those that prefer a more "leftwing" approach.

The story of "The Little Red Hen" baking bread, where no one helps but everyone wants a share, applies to all human beings, of any race or persuasion. First Nations peoples have had some unique challenges. Historically, they have been abused. Still, historically, who hasn't? Trying to right all the wrongs of centuries ago is a futile effort. Where does it stop?

As to why some bands are so much more positive than others, there's a better story than the "Little Red Hen":

Two twin brothers grew up under a drunken father who savagely abused them. They never had enough to eat, adequate clothing or money for advanced schooling.

One brother grew up exactly like his father. He too became a drunkard who beat his family and did not properly provide for them. When asked why he said "With a father like mine, what would you expect?"

The other brother became a model citizen. He was sober and hardworking, using part-time jobs to get through school and eventually winning a good-paying job. He had a wonderful family with well-behaved children.

When asked why he replied "With a father like mine, what would you expect?"

I'm just saying you should be careful, Saipan. Don't brand people by their race or you'll become like a couple of your opponents in this thread.

[bloodyminded]

I'm just saying you should be careful, Saipan. Don't brand people by their race or you'll become like a couple of your opponents in this thread.

If by some catastrophic miracle of nature Saipan were to become like us opponents, you would witness a pretty ugly mass suicide occurring.

[Shwa]

I'm just saying you should be careful, Saipan. Don't brand people by their race or you'll become like a couple of your opponents in this thread.

Saipan is a powerless, ignorant moron. Opposition not required.

[Wild Bill]

If by some catastrophic miracle of nature Saipan were to become like us opponents, you would witness a pretty ugly mass suicide occurring.

I wasn't slamming you, BM! I don't recall any post of yours where you said someone was in the wrong merely because he was white, or at least, non-native!

Or that someone was a racist simply because he or she did not accept any native stand anywhere as gospel truth, because it came from a native.

[Saipan]

Not all, Saipan. Perhaps not even a majority. As said before, there are many different bands living on very different reserves. They are NOT all the same!

Of course not. I'm glad someone see it. I'm sure you noticed whose idea I was repeating/responding to. That is how many indians see the "white man". My next door neighbour is Ojibway, and he agrees with me most of the time.

[charter.rights]

Of course not. I'm glad someone see it. I'm sure you noticed whose idea I was repeating/responding to. That is how many indians see the "white man". My next door neighbour is Ojibway, and he agrees with me most of the time.

There would be a worldview difference. What you see him nodding his head, he is merely agreeing that you are an idiot. Ever hear him say ah...ah.... (native speak ah = asshole).

Very few "Indians" that I am in contact with every day see colour in people. Rather they are very aware of the settler worldview, which embraces justification for murder (Crucifixion) as a basis for their beliefs, or where "good" is apart from "evil" in the face of a reality that evil and good are often born out of exactly the same action. Good intentions often have an evil experience and conversely evil intentions sometimes work out for the good. As has been explained to me, their worldview is based on good and evil being what they are and instead balance is far more important.

Differences are evident but it is hardly racist to point out that their worldview is different from ours and the influences, and colonizing of native people has led to the failures in their communities, and we are fully to blame for that.

And by the way. When you are talking about an Anishnabe their nation is Ojibwa. Ojibway is the language they speak, or their linguistic group. Obviously you are not very close to your neighbour or you would have known this. And any anecdotal evidence you were trying to claim at his or her expense is based on a false authority argument. Poor boy.

Edited December 2, 2010 by charter.rights

[Popeye]

Popeye, you really should read the whole thread before you just jump in blind, making assumptions and preaching to the air.

Nobody has claimed that natives have no rights. No one has claimed that some bands don't live in terrible conditions. No one is talking about taking any rights away.

You put an army of straw men in your post!

The issue is that SOME native supporters have made claims that natives have hunting rights far beyond what the courts have ruled, in effect that natives can hunt anywhere and anytime, including not just crown but private land!

This has been the tone of a number of threads regarding native issues. Mostly, they have revolved around the Caledonia process as an example of how native protesters went too far. Still, you yourself in your post are generalizing, as if all natives in all bands anywhere in the country are the same. They most certainly are not! They are all individuals, with different issues and values. Some of them might very well disagree with the hunting claims posted in this thread!

If you want to join in on the debate it would be nice if you took the trouble to note what people are actually debating about.

You Miss, are exactly what I was talking about. I'm not sure why you would think that I hadn't read all 13 pages before I commented, but keep your panties on honey.

The topic is "Natives have rights too....". Check the thread, and then my post, and then read the Charter and Constitutional Law applicable to Native rights.

Tell me something, do you have a problem with French being the "other" national language of Canada? Do you take issue with those who are French being afforded certain rights within the charter?

[Popeye]

More than any other race.

Which rights were removed? Or even discuss removing?

Go back, reread. Wild Bill request such should happen before commenting.

No rights have been removed from anyone.

BTW, did you know that the 96% of land mass in Ontario is covered by Treaty?