Natives have right too says Canada

[Shwa]

Why are you unable to differentiate between mainstream Canadian public schools (I went to a private Jewish elementary school) and the special schools that were designed for Natives? They're not one-in-the-same. The distinction is crucial, and I'm not sure why you're blurring it.

The fact that I recognize it as ironic Bob, is the recognition of the difference. Furthermore, did you know that residential schools were also private religious schools run by various Christian religious groups. Perhaps those Native kids would have been better off at a private Jewish elementary school as well, but we'll never know.

That's exactly what I'm saying. Why don't we encourage Aboriginals to do the same as other minorities in Canada, where they integrate while making reasonable efforts towards the preservation their culture. Certainly some things have to go, such as the nomadic lifestyle. Don't you agree that Natives can enjoy a modernized contemporary version of their cultures that are compatible with contemporary Canada, just as many other cultures are currently doing? Nobody said it's easy, but it's the ideal balance between maintaining old ways, traditions, cultures, faiths, and heritages while integrating successfully and being a valuable part of the Canadian social fabric.

But it isn't the only ideal, so the negotiations continue. Besides, I think some Natives are a titch leery about another ideal integration proposal and we can't blame them with their experiences with residential schools and other ideal assimilation methods of the past.

Clearly current and past policies were flawed, as well as the choices and selections of the these Natives and their leadership. To accept a somewhat segregationist policy where they are far removed from the heart of Canadian society, on remote reservations, with sub-par education and opportunities, is simply wrong. Both Canada and the Aboriginals should've moved towards a policy of REAL integration. Is what I'm saying that hard to understand?

Did you know that Natives only received the federal vote in 1960?

I am not supporting to policies of old, nor am I advocating for further or deepened segregation. Integration is the way, as many other cultures have done it and certainly Aboriginals can, too.

Would you agree it would be better for Canada to integrate with the United States? I mean, we hold treaties with them too. Other cultures have integrated with the US, no reason Canada can't right?

[Shwa]

You seem to be advancing the false notion that the Natives lived in harmony and balance with nature. They were (and I am not faulting them for this) decimating wildlife and driving some species towards extinction. Don't think for a second that they were the historical parallels of the blue creatures in the movie "Avatar".

Wow. You admit a few hours ago that you were "not familiar" of the Indian treaties and now think I must see Native cultures in terms of Avatar? That is quite a turnaround!

When was the last time you read "Culitvating a Landscape of Peace: Iroquois-European Encounters in Seventeenth-Century America" by Matthew Dennis or "1491" by Charles Mann or "The Earth Shall Weep" by James Wilson or "Aboriginal Treaty Rights in Canada" edited by Michael Asch or... etc.

If I recall correctly, in GGaS, Jared Diamond mentions these realities. If you haven't already read the book, I'd highly recommend it. And if anything, Jared Diamond is somewhat biased in favour of what some of you would describe as "indigenous populations".

You might want to also read "Beyond Culture" By Edward T. Hall who also expounds on the realities of different cultures. Very good book for gaining the basic understanding that some cultures don't operate the same way we do no matter how much we want to ascribe them to the idea that they do.

[bush_cheney2004]

....Would you agree it would be better for Canada to integrate with the United States? I mean, we hold treaties with them too. Other cultures have integrated with the US, no reason Canada can't right?

Ahem...Canada is already "integrated" with the United States....some people just don't want to admit it.

[Shwa]

Ahem...Canada is already "integrated" with the United States....some people just don't want to admit it.

Yeah, yeah. But I mean, fug this Prime Minister business, let's vote for the President and get an NFL team in Toronto. All the rest of those annoying details can be worked out later. Plus, I want a Target up here so I can buy Count Chocula and Almond Joys.

[Saipan]

When was the last time you read "Culitvating a Landscape of Peace: Iroquois-European Encounters in Seventeenth-Century America" by Matthew Dennis or "1491" by Charles Mann or "The Earth Shall Weep" by James Wilson or "Aboriginal Treaty Rights in Canada" edited by Michael Asch or... etc.

What do they write about Lakota extermination by Ojibway out of Red Lake area (Minn.) not so long ago?

[charter.rights]

When was the last time you read "Culitvating a Landscape of Peace: Iroquois-European Encounters in Seventeenth-Century America" by Matthew Dennis or "1491" by Charles Mann or "The Earth Shall Weep" by James Wilson or "Aboriginal Treaty Rights in Canada" edited by Michael Asch or... etc.

They haven't. That is why they talk like they are experts. They are covering up for their inadequacies.

[Saipan]

But it isn't the only ideal, so the negotiations continue. Besides, I think some Natives are a titch leery about another ideal integration proposal and we can't blame them with their experiences with residential schools and other ideal assimilation methods of the past.

"Natives" can wallow in the past or get on with the present - like all other races in Canada, or anywhere in the world.

[CANADIEN]

"Natives" can wallow in the past or get on with the present - like all other races in Canada, or anywhere in the world.

Very good idea. Please feel free to lead by example anytime.

[Saipan]

Very good idea. Please feel free to lead by example anytime.

I was born leader

[charter.rights]

I was born leader

So all we need now is the line and hook. We have our leader.....

[Shwa]

What do they write about Lakota extermination by Ojibway out of Red Lake area (Minn.) not so long ago?

What about it? Do you have some Ojiway or Lakota sources you would like to cite - perhaps some battle or war songs or some scrolls you can point to? Or are you referring to something you heard or read in a history book?

[Shwa]

I was born leader

I am sure you are. Like Sun Myung Moon? Or are you a Movementarian looking to gather your flock to Blisstonia? Na-na na-na na-na na-na Leader!

[Bob]

Shwa - I am not recommending that Aboriginals necessarily be placed in public schools. What I am recommending is that they focus on providing their children and young adults with a solid conventional education while finding creative ways to also provide an educational system to ensure the perseverance and continued development of their cultures.

As an example, I shared a personal anecdote about how some Jewish communities in Canada try to address this challenge. Some establish private Jewish schools (both elementary and secondary) which focus on conventional education (mathematics, sciences, languages, etc) while also providing time for Jewish history and religious studies. We didn't have Christian holidays as our days off (except where legally required, I think), we had Jewish holidays off. We made matzos on Pesah (Passover) and lit candles for Hannukah. See what I mean?

Alternatively, Aboriginals can and perhaps in many instances should enrol their children into standard public schools, where we have a considerable mix of cultures. Outside of regular educational hours, of course, Aboriginals families would need to find ways to educate their children and young ones on their cultures. Night-school classes, weekend-classes, summer camps (I also went to a Jewish summer camp) and many other options are available as possible solutions towards addressing the challenge of preserving culture. The Jewish people have done it around the world for thousands of years, in many countries, against the most difficult conditions, and it is certainly not without its challenges. Other people can do it, also.

[Shwa]

Shwa - I am not recommending that Aboriginals necessarily be placed in public schools. What I am recommending is that they focus on providing their children and young adults with a solid conventional education while finding creative ways to also provide an educational system to ensure the perseverance and continued development of their cultures.

You recommendations line up with the Education Programs of Indian Affairs.

[Saipan]

You recommendations line up with the Education Programs of Indian Affairs.

Educaton provided by "The Elders" is clearly not working. Except for sniffing glue or getting drunk.

And complaining their kitchen is too dirty and fawcets are broken......

[charter.rights]

Educaton provided by "The Elders" is clearly not working. Except for sniffing glue or getting drunk.

And complaining their kitchen is too dirty and fawcets are broken......

Goes to prove that the education by the government sponsored kiddie-diddling priests really doesn't work. They are to blame for the state of reserves today.

Edited November 17, 2010 by charter.rights

[Melanie_]

Educaton provided by "The Elders" is clearly not working. Except for sniffing glue or getting drunk.

And complaining their kitchen is too dirty and fawcets are broken......

You have no idea what you are talking about. This is one of the most racist comments I have ever read on this forum.

[Wild Bill]

You have no idea what you are talking about. This is one of the most racist comments I have ever read on this forum.

Perhaps it was, but there is a grain of truth buried beneath the insult, Melanie.

How many computer lathe operators, software engineers, engineers of ANY kind!, or similarly highly educated professionals are graduating from schools on native reserves?

How many aboriginal engineers were involved in the Apollo program? When's the last time an aboriginal university discovered a better way for gene splicing?

It's all very well to want to live a traditional lifestyle but it will always need to be subsidized by money created somewhere else. You can only sell so many dreamcatchers to build an economy. When I had my quadruple heart bypass operation there was an aboriginal man in my ward having the same operation. He was quite happy to have the operation! It didn't bother him that without the white man's medical knowledge he would have died. Both of us knew we were dependent on the skill and long hours of study from a white doctor who had graduated from a non-native school system. Both of us were equally grateful to the lady!

To hear some on this board tell it, natives on reserve are independent and self-reliant. I guess it depends on what context you measure those factors. I wouldn't mind having an aboriginal surgeon, as long as he didn't earn his medical degree on the reserve!

Edited November 18, 2010 by Wild Bill

[Melanie_]

Perhaps it was, but there is a grain of truth buried beneath the insult, Melanie.

How many computer lathe operators, software engineers, engineers of ANY kind!, or similarly highly educated professionals are graduating from schools on native reserves?

How many aboriginal engineers were involved in the Apollo program? When's the last time an aboriginal university discovered a better way for gene splicing?

It's all very well to want to live a traditional lifestyle but it will always need to be subsidized by money created somewhere else. You can only sell so many dreamcatchers to build an economy. When I had my quadruple heart bypass operation there was an aboriginal man in my ward having the same operation. He was quite happy to have the operation! It didn't bother him that without the white man's medical knowledge he would have died. Both of us knew we were dependent on the skill and long hours of study from a white doctor who had graduated from a non-native school system. Both of us were equally grateful to the lady!

To hear some on this board tell it, natives on reserve are independent and self-reliant. I guess it depends on what context you measure those factors. I wouldn't mind having an aboriginal surgeon, as long as he didn't earn his medical degree on the reserve!

I'm glad your bypass went well, Bill, and that the man who shared your ward also was well. My point isn't that people aren't happy to benefit from technology - in fact, I think that all people, regardless of ethnic origin, will adapt to any technology that betters their lives. And that is a good thing. But when Saipan is so disrespectful to an entire group of people, stereotyping based on gross generalizations, he needs to be called on it.

Edited November 18, 2010 by Melanie_

[Guest TrueMetis]

To hear some on this board tell it, natives on reserve are independent and self-reliant. I guess it depends on what context you measure those factors. I wouldn't mind having an aboriginal surgeon, as long as he didn't earn his medical degree on the reserve!

Who's said that?

[bush_cheney2004]

....How many aboriginal engineers were involved in the Apollo program? .....

At least one....Mary G. Ross:

When Lockheed formed its Missiles Systems Division in 1954, it selected Mary Ross to be one of the first forty employees, and she was the only female engineer among them. As the American missile program matured, Miss Ross found herself researching and evaluating feasibility and performance of ballistic missile and other defense systems. She also studied the distribution of pressure caused by ocean waves and how it affected submarine-launched vehicles.

Her work in 1958 concentrated on satellite orbits

and the Agena series of rockets that played so prominent a role in the Apollo moon program

during the 1960s and 70s. As an advanced systems engineer, Miss Ross worked on the Polaris reentry vehicle and engineering systems for manned space flights. Before her retirement from Lockheed in 1973, Ross undertook research on flyby space probes that would study Mars and Venus. After Ross retired she continued her interests in engineering by delivering lectures to high school and college groups to encourage young women and Native American youths to train for technical careers.

http://www.kuwiskuwi.net/

http://www.agnesscott.edu/lriddle/women/maryross.htm

[Bob]

I'm glad your bypass went well, Bill, and that the man who shared your ward also was well. My point isn't that people aren't happy to benefit from technology - in fact, I think that all people, regardless of ethnic origin, will adapt to any technology that betters their lives. And that is a good thing. But when Saipan is so disrespectful to an entire group of people, stereotyping based on gross generalizations, he needs to be called on it.

That's not really the case though, is it? At the very least, the current system in which Aboriginals are removed from major population centres and living on reserves isn't allowing them to find that difficult balance between maintaining (and adjusting) traditions while integrating meaningfully. In other words, keeping Natives on this pathetic financial life-support while segregated on reserves in order to give them pockets of land upon which to "maintain their culture" simply isn't working. They must find a method of integration as many other ethnic minorities have done in Canada, which balances their heritage and distinct way of life with contemporary/modern/mainstream practises.

I think Saipan and Wild Bill have a point. I would hope that most people, like myself, want to see Aboriginals succeed. I would love to see them improve all of their demographic statistics: lower high-school drop rates, increase rates of university enrolment and graduation, increase average salaries, increased representation in high-profile positions in business and politics (as long as they don't advocate for a return to the "good 'ol days), reduced rates of alcoholism and other forms of drug abuse, etc.

[Shwa]

How many computer lathe operators, software engineers, engineers of ANY kind!, or similarly highly educated professionals are graduating from schools on native reserves?

http://aboriginalaerospace.com/index.html

http://aboriginaleng.com/

http://www.newswire.ca/en/releases/archive/July2010/22/c5884.html

http://camosun.ca/ccr/news/2010/july/ancestor-project.html

http://www.neeganburnside.com/index.aspx

I don't have the actual numbers which I am sure are located in some report somewhere, but I think the above links are sufficient proof that you realy don't know what your talking about. Also B-C's link too, which saved me the hassle.

[Shwa]

That's not really the case though, is it? At the very least, the current system in which Aboriginals are removed from major population centres and living on reserves isn't allowing them to find that difficult balance between maintaining (and adjusting) traditions while integrating meaningfully. In other words, keeping Natives on this pathetic financial life-support while segregated on reserves in order to give them pockets of land upon which to "maintain their culture" simply isn't working. They must find a method of integration as many other ethnic minorities have done in Canada, which balances their heritage and distinct way of life with contemporary/modern/mainstream practises.

It isn't "financial life-support" they are simply treaty payments, benefits and services. The fact is, life IS improving for Aboriginal people post-residential schools.

You have no idea about the off-reserve population of Aboriginal people do you?

Your simplistic idea of "balance" hinges on the word "integration." We can't blame the Indians for being a titch wary about that right, after the "integration" that was tried with the residential school program? (And yes, there is a reason I have to keep repeating this to you.)

I think Saipan and Wild Bill have a point. I would hope that most people, like myself, want to see Aboriginals succeed. I would love to see them improve all of their demographic statistics: lower high-school drop rates, increase rates of university enrolment and graduation, increase average salaries, increased representation in high-profile positions in business and politics (as long as they don't advocate for a return to the "good 'ol days), reduced rates of alcoholism and other forms of drug abuse, etc.

The points Saipan and Wild Bill have come from a position of ignorance. Do yourself a favour and take a little bit of time to do even some cursory research. I suggest you start at the defintition of "treaty."

[Wild Bill]

http://aboriginalaerospace.com/index.html

http://aboriginaleng.com/

http://www.newswire.ca/en/releases/archive/July2010/22/c5884.html

http://camosun.ca/ccr/news/2010/july/ancestor-project.html

http://www.neeganburnside.com/index.aspx

I don't have the actual numbers which I am sure are located in some report somewhere, but I think the above links are sufficient proof that you realy don't know what your talking about. Also B-C's link too, which saved me the hassle.

I stand corrected! And I am impressed! Forgive me for my false assumption but after been instructed so many times the past few years by posters like CR who tell me that the native "Cosmic All with Nature" approach to education and life is superior to the white man's education surely you can understand why I was so mistaken! I'm sure I recall him lecturing us about traditional medicine a time or two, or it could have been one of his precessors. It wasn't that long ago he told us that logic was merely a delusion. No one gets through engineering school with that sort of a belief.

So I retract what I said and what's more, heartily approve! Hopefully, CR will show up and agree with the two of us! Perhaps one of those firms will be kind enough to give him a job and teach him something practical. As a techie myself I admit I have my biases.

Meanwhile, I have to ask if these firms are staffed by people EDUCATED in their trade on reserves? IOW, are there schools on reserves that teach such engineering or do students have to study off-reserve for this education?

Lastly, how does Six Nations stack up on your list of such links? As a reserve, are they as progressive as the others that you cited? If so, I owe them an apology as well.

Edited November 18, 2010 by Wild Bill