Airport Security is failing

[bjre]

Curious, what right has been violated?

If another man do this to you not in airport but in street, or to your wife, or to your gf or other, do you still believe no right has been violated and you will keep silent?

[guyser]

If another man do this to you not in airport but in street, or to your wife, or to your gf or other, do you still believe no right has been violated and you will keep silent?

Not if he pays me for groping my wife or my girlfriend. $200 for the wife, $400 for groping my girlfriend. Grope me and you best have buckets of cash or a good dental plan.

Hey can I pull your car over on the street and search it?

[Wilber]

Curious, what right has been violated?

If you don't have the right not to be groped why should you have the right not to be profiled? As I said, anything seems to be OK as long as the state abuses everyone equally.

Edited November 25, 2010 by Wilber

[bush_cheney2004]

From what some say.. the 4th Amendment is being violated by having them do these invasive pat downs.

More guesses from what some say...."invasive" pat downs have been a routine matter in police stops without violating the 4th Amendment. The ideal that some say is being violated has never existed. Must be all that American TV in Canada!

Here are you Canadian "rights" on display:

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/ottawa/story/2010/11/25/ottawa-bonds-video-115.html

Edited November 26, 2010 by bush_cheney2004

[bush_cheney2004]

If you don't have the right not to be groped why should you have the right not to be profiled? As I said, anything seems to be OK as long as the state abuses everyone equally.

Yep...and that includes no smoking in the cabin and seat belts....what a dictatorship!

[Wilber]

Yep...and that includes no smoking in the cabin and seat belts....what a dictatorship!

Airport security is a mixture of necessity and theater of the absurd. When I used to arrive at a US airport security in uniform with my government issued ID on my lapel, flight bag in hand, flight plan package under my arm, a copy of my schedule in my pocket verifying that I was operating this flight and then have to take my shoes off. It was very tempting to say, in an hour I will be at the controls of a two hundred ton missile loaded with fifty tons of jet fuel. If I wanted to destroy the thing blowing my own freaking feet off would be so far down on the list of options I don't think anyone could find it, even me. But you don't because they are only doing their job the way they are told and you just want to get on with your own. It gives you very little confidence in the people who are running this show however. I see the guys at American are finally pushing back at this kind of nonsense. I wish them luck.

[bush_cheney2004]

.... It gives you very little confidence in the people who are running this show however. I see the guys at American are finally pushing back at this kind of nonsense. I wish them luck.

They are just part of the show, and with all due respect, flight crew, ground crew, and manufacturers have contributed to far more airline disasters and fatalities than any terrorist. When they can trumpet better safety and design records than the "stupid" TSA's security record I will be impressed.

[Wilber]

They are just part of the show, and with all due respect, flight crew, ground crew, and manufacturers have contributed to far more airline disasters and fatalities than any terrorist. When they can trumpet better safety and design records than the "stupid" TSA's security record I will be impressed.

Well I guess we should stop building and flying aircraft then. That's a really stupid statement.

[bush_cheney2004]

Well I guess we should stop building and flying aircraft then. That's a really stupid statement.

No more than yours....any pilot who thinks he/she is above screening because of the responsibility they have is part of the problem.

[Wilber]

No more than yours....any pilot who thinks he/she is above screening because of the responsibility they have is part of the problem.

Really, how many of those flight crew, ground crew or manufacturers have intentionally destroyed an aircraft and those aboard it and what could airport screening have done to prevent it?

That's the problem with the system, it wastes resources on exercises in futility. Wasting time and other peoples money on things that aren't part of the problem. The TSA's approach to everything is reactionary. It responds to its own failures by hitting everything over the head with a shovel regardless of the threat. Almost everything it is reacting to has been thwarted by either intelligence or the passengers and crews, not airport screening. Most of those incidents threw up flags before the person even got to the airport.

Flight crew aren't against security, far from it, they would just like to see a little more intelligence and focus in the way it is applied.

[GostHacked]

No more than yours....any pilot who thinks he/she is above screening because of the responsibility they have is part of the problem.

So you can't trust the pilot anymore? That would make me a very nervous flier.

[bush_cheney2004]

So you can't trust the pilot anymore? That would make me a very nervous flier.

In some cases...no, you can't. There is a difference between safety and security, and the "laughable" TSA measures are easily matched by bonehead decisions and actions made by flight or ground crew.

Pilots are pissed off because they have seen a steady erosion of pay, benefits, and status compared to many years ago. Constant screenings by backscatter machines is just one more insult to an occupation that already exposes them to more ionizing radiation.

[guyser]

More guesses from what some say...."invasive" pat downs have been a routine matter in police stops without violating the 4th Amendment. The ideal that some say is being violated has never existed. Must be all that American TV in Canada!

Really?

Just get pulled over and searched, and or a pat down for no reason?

Wow!

Edited November 26, 2010 by guyser

[bush_cheney2004]

Really, how many of those flight crew, ground crew or manufacturers have intentionally destroyed an aircraft and those aboard it and what could airport screening have done to prevent it?

Egypt Air Flight 990....

Security should begin long before airport screening, including personnel reliability profiling and screening. Flight and ground crew should be subjected to more stringent measures than passengers IMHO.

[bush_cheney2004]

Really?

Just get pulled over and searched, and or a pat down for no reason?

Wow!

Law enforcement procedures require securing the scene for threats to person and property. Immediate pat downs for weapons are routine. Searches for contraband are conducted after probable cause is established or when permission is granted. All legal....

[bush_cheney2004]

bump

Edited November 26, 2010 by bush_cheney2004

[guyser]

Law enforcement procedures require securing the scene for threats to person and property. Immediate pat downs for weapons are routine. Searches for contraband are conducted after probable cause is established or when permission is granted. All legal....

the difference being for threats, probable cause reasons.

Not just getting a pat down for being pulled over.

pat downs have been a routine matter in police stops

[Wilber]

Egypt Air Flight 990....

Security should begin long before airport screening, including personnel reliability profiling and screening. Flight and ground crew should be subjected to more stringent measures than passengers IMHO.

There was no weapon involved in Egypt Air, all he did was wait till his partner went to the can, pushed the nose over and went in like a gentleman. Nutcase that no amount of scans or gropes would stop. I actually agree with airside personnel being subject to extensive security checks and profiling but not the physical screening. Waste of time. It's no sense checking crew for nail files when they have far more knowledge about how things function and have access to articles that are part of the aircraft's equipment which are far more suitable as weapons. They don't need weapons. Nothing more than theater which detracts from doing real security.

[guyser]

It's no sense checking crew for nail files when they have far more knowledge about how things function and have access to articles that are part of the aircraft's equipment which are far more suitable as weapons. They don't need weapons. Nothing more than theater which detracts from doing real security.

Arent there axes in the cockpit or have I watched too many movies?

[Wilber]

Arent there axes in the cockpit or have I watched too many movies?

No comment. For obvious reasons I won't discuss equipment or procedures on an open forum.

[bush_cheney2004]

the difference being for threats, probable cause reasons.

Not just getting a pat down for being pulled over.

The point being that pat downs and searches have been ruled to be legal, if only to protect the lives of officers and bystanders, and that includes after being pulled over and asked to leave the vehicle.

[GostHacked]

The point being that pat downs and searches have been ruled to be legal, if only to protect the lives of officers and bystanders, and that includes after being pulled over and asked to leave the vehicle.

Probable cause .... pulling over a drunk driver is proable cause for a search I guess.. but just a simple traffic violation does not garner you a pat down. Well not here in Canada anyways. .

Also do the TSA agents change their nice blue gloves after each groping? Should I expect to contract some athletes foot when I walk across the infected floor because I have to take my shoes off?

[bush_cheney2004]

.... They don't need weapons. Nothing more than theater which detracts from doing real security.

I disagree....if only for obvious things like a permitted firearm.

[Wilber]

I disagree....if only for obvious things like a permitted firearm.

You think a pilot with a permitted firearm needs to be patted down for nail clippers or his bag checked for a bottle of shampoo that is too large?

[bush_cheney2004]

Probable cause .... pulling over a drunk driver is proable cause for a search I guess.. but just a simple traffic violation does not garner you a pat down. Well not here in Canada anyways. .

Believe it or not, some people do not live in Canada, land of all that is perfect.

Also do the TSA agents change their nice blue gloves after each groping? Should I expect to contract some athletes foot when I walk across the infected floor because I have to take my shoes off?

The gloves are for their protection, not yours! Remember, you volunteered to fly the friendly skies!