Caledonia The town That Law Forgot

[Argus]

You're so cute when you go completely over the top. Did you get spittle or drool on your keyboard when you wrote that Argus?

I wrote a completely factual statement. That you can't handle it says more about your level of immaturity (not that I was ever in much doubt there) than my presumed attitude towards law and order.

The fact is every law in this country rests ultimately on force. If you don't abide by the speed limit you get a ticket. If you don't pay it you'll be arrested. If you resist, the police will use whatever level of force is required up to and including killing you. That's a simple fact of life.

The police failed to act in Caledonia because Dalton McGuinty was scared shitless that a native would die - under whatever circumstances - and that whole years long propaganda exercise he and his party had used against Mike Harris over the death of a native at Ipperwash would turn around and bite him on his ass. So he told the police not to enforce the law in that area, and, given the police were being run by a spineless political whore like Julian Fantino, they obeyed.

[Argus]

Good God! Are all your shirts brown? You little sturmabteilung you!

It's always adolescents like you who introduce Hitler into conversations. You simply can't understand that some people disagree with you. You flounder around in your mind trying to understand how anyone dares to argue with you, and the only thing you can come up with is "You're a Nazi! You're a Nazi!"

Then you probably giggle in delight at how sophisticated everyone will think you are.

[Argus]

So the lawbreakers in this case are the government and the corporations who go ahead without consultation. Do they deserve to be shot and killed too?

What should have happened after the OPP removed the protesters the first time, and a whole swarm of them showed up with baseball bats and the like, was for the OPP to go in and arrest every single one of them, using whatever level of force was required to do so. And btw, if someone comes at a police officer with a baseball bat the procedure is to shoot them.

If that meant a whole bunch of dead lawbreakers I wouldn't be terribly upset about that. IMHO anyone who raises a baseball bat to a cop gets what he deserves.

[charter.rights]

What should have happened after the OPP removed the protesters the first time, and a whole swarm of them showed up with baseball bats and the like, was for the OPP to go in and arrest every single one of them, using whatever level of force was required to do so. And btw, if someone comes at a police officer with a baseball bat the procedure is to shoot them.

If that meant a whole bunch of dead lawbreakers I wouldn't be terribly upset about that. IMHO anyone who raises a baseball bat to a cop gets what he deserves.

No it wasn't an option. It is never an option for police to begin arresting people in a mob situation. That is just the nature of emergency services management. The first rule of enforcement is that you never put an emergency worker in harms way and you must wait until the situation has changed to a safer condition before effecting an arrest. But you wouldn't know that because you are not a cop or an emergency services worker, and as a mail-room level clerk you wouldn't have access to that kind of information.

BTW the law says the the cop cannot use force unless he has a reasonable belief that his or someone else's life is in danger. Carrying a baseball bat - even in a mob situation - is never justification for lethal force. Just ask Acting Sargent Kenneth Deane.....oh wait you can't....because someone else possibly got to him, after the fact....you know...the mysterious rear end from a transport... If you knew the law you would have known that...

[Shady]

BTW the law says the the cop cannot use force unless he has a reasonable belief that his or someone else's life is in danger. Carrying a baseball bat - even in a mob situation - is never justification for lethal force.

Once again, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

[Shwa]

I wrote a completely factual statement. That you can't handle it says more about your level of immaturity (not that I was ever in much doubt there) than my presumed attitude towards law and order.

Well good thing this situation wasn't handled by simpletons. And no one got killed. Whew!

Why is this a good thing? Sometimes people need killing. Sometimes they deserve to be killed.

Suggesting lethal force at any time during the Douglas Estates protest is the crazy notion of a drooling whackjob and you're the whackjob. It has nothing to do with anyone's "immaturity" and everything to do with your completely lunatic leanings. Call the Royal Ottawa Hospital and get yourself some help son before it's too late.

[Shwa]

It's always adolescents like you who introduce Hitler into conversations. You simply can't understand that some people disagree with you. You flounder around in your mind trying to understand how anyone dares to argue with you, and the only thing you can come up with is "You're a Nazi! You're a Nazi!"

Then you probably giggle in delight at how sophisticated everyone will think you are.

Now you are blaming others for your audio hallucinations. 1-800-ROYAL-OTTAWA, ask for the intake nurse. There's a bed for you there Argus, I am sure.

[Argus]

No it wasn't an option.

Oh of course it is.

It is never an option for police to begin arresting people in a mob situation.

Yeah it is. That's why they invented tear gas and shields.

BTW the law says the the cop cannot use force unless he has a reasonable belief that his or someone else's life is in danger. Carrying a baseball bat - even in a mob situation - is never justification for lethal force.

Right. It takes a lot of imagination to think a cop on seeing a shouting, angry man with a baseball bat won't order him to drop the bat, and if the man refuses, pull his gun on the guy. That'd never happen.

[Argus]

Suggesting lethal force at any time during the Douglas Estates protest is the crazy notion of a drooling whackjob and you're the whackjob.

Let me try to reference the proper language for one of your adolescent mindset.

Bite me.

The police should have used force to clear the land and arrested everyone involved. I didn't suggest killing them. I was simply replying to your sweeping (childishly naive) devotion to avoiding violence at all cost. You're simply too much the simpering, anguished little man to read clear English.

[charter.rights]

Bite me.

No doubt your first words spoken as a baby. Try to keep up sonny.

[Wild Bill]

What should have happened after the OPP removed the protesters the first time, and a whole swarm of them showed up with baseball bats and the like, was for the OPP to go in and arrest every single one of them, using whatever level of force was required to do so. And btw, if someone comes at a police officer with a baseball bat the procedure is to shoot them.

If that meant a whole bunch of dead lawbreakers I wouldn't be terribly upset about that. IMHO anyone who raises a baseball bat to a cop gets what he deserves.

What you're leading towards is what effect the protest had, Argus. A simplistic view is that it garnered national attention to the land dispute in and around Caledonia. However, it's obvious a lot more happened.

First, a town of 40,000 people has lost faith in their police and at least the present provincial government. Not much faith left over for the feds, either!

Second, negative feelings towards Six Nations by their non-native neighbours would seem to have gone UP and not down!

Third, we have national newspapers like the Globe and Mail featuring a columnist who has written a definitive book on the lawlessness of the situation. The National Post featured full pages of excepts from the book for 4 days.

While the protesters may feel they have won a battle with the provincial government in the long run it may cost them the war. Being accused of being "soft on the natives" may become an election factor. Politicians tend to be amoral beasts that are obsessed with their own political survival. Few of them will favour natives over any dispute if it might cost them their position.

Lastly, many non-natives may have started to distrust having any business dealings with Six Nations, for fear that the rules may end up changed at any time.

It's unfortunate. Once again, it's not about native issues. It's about clumsy, poorly thought out tactics on the protesters part. Many of the militants did not even come from Six Nations! They will have moved on, leaving the native people who have lived there all their lives to try to pick up the pieces.

It's like an obnoxious drunk at a party bothering people until finally he starts a fight and gets knocked down. As he lies there on the floor should he congratulate himself for at least getting some attention?

There seems to be a trend towards violent protesters, not just the natives at Caledonia but also with yahoos at universities who disrupt meetings to prevent people they don't happen to approve of from speaking. The trend is quite negative. While only a few are likely to support mandatory hanging of the more obnoxious ones nonetheless fewer people care if the police use painful force or onerous court charges. The protesters' cause seems to rarely garner increased support. Rather, they likely lose more than they gain.

AS I've said before, there seems to be a "drama queen" factor happening. Protesters seem to get off on the notoriety but are rather shortsighted about the effects on their goals.

Oh well, I'd be apathetic if I had the energy...

Edited November 21, 2010 by Wild Bill

[Shwa]

Bite me.

No thanks. I don't swing that way. If you know what I mean.

But if you are that lonely, take a stroll on Somerset.

[charter.rights]

What you're leading towards is what effect the protest had, Argus. A simplistic view is that it garnered national attention to the land dispute in and around Caledonia. However, it's obvious a lot more happened.

First, a town of 40,000 people has lost faith in their police and at least the present provincial government. Not much faith left over for the feds, either!

Second, negative feelings towards Six Nations by their non-native neighbours would seem to have gone UP and not down!

Third, we have national newspapers like the Globe and Mail featuring a columnist who has written a definitive book on the lawlessness of the situation. The National Post featured full pages of excepts from the book for 4 days.

While the protesters may feel they have won a battle with the provincial government in the long run it may cost them the war. Being accused of being "soft on the natives" may become an election factor. Politicians tend to be amoral beasts that are obsessed with their own political survival. Few of them will favour natives over any dispute if it might cost them their position.

Lastly, many non-natives may have started to distrust having any business dealings with Six Nations, for fear that the rules may end up changed at any time.

It's unfortunate. Once again, it's not about native issues. It's about clumsy, poorly thought out tactics on the protesters part. Many of the militants did not even come from Six Nations! They will have moved on, leaving the native people who have lived there all their lives to try to pick up the pieces.

It's like an obnoxious drunk at a party bothering people until finally he starts a fight and gets knocked down. As he lies there on the floor should he congratulate himself for at least getting some attention?

There seems to be a trend towards violent protesters, not just the natives at Caledonia but also with yahoos at universities who disrupt meetings to prevent people they don't happen to approve of from speaking. The trend is quite negative. While only a few are likely to support mandatory hanging of the more obnoxious ones nonetheless fewer people care if the police use painful force or onerous court charges. The protesters' cause seems to rarely garner increased support. Rather, they likely lose more than they gain.

AS I've said before, there seems to be a "drama queen" factor happening. Protesters seem to get off on the notoriety but are rather shortsighted about the effects on their goals.

Oh well, I'd be apathetic if I had the energy...

So now YOU speak for all of Haldimand County, ya right....

Six Nations is ahead of the game. Maybe the OPP is under some unwarranted scrutiny, but all and la the government is changing and adapting to "accommodate" First nations issues. Anyone who keeps up on current events knows that....

Ontario releases new aboriginal consultation requirements.

No doubt this is a result of the greater awareness of their constitutional obligations, part of which is due to protests like DCE and Ipperwash.

[Wild Bill]

So now YOU speak for all of Haldimand County, ya right....

Six Nations is ahead of the game. Maybe the OPP is under some unwarranted scrutiny, but all and la the government is changing and adapting to "accommodate" First nations issues. Anyone who keeps up on current events knows that....

No doubt this is a result of the greater awareness of their constitutional obligations, part of which is due to protests like DCE and Ipperwash.

Do YOU speak for all of Haldimand County?

You may feel that Six Nations is ahead of the game right now, under a McGuinty government. That's what I mean by short term thinking.

Let's get back to this debate next year, after McGuinty no doubt wins an overwhelming majority based on his support for Six Nations...NOT!

Do you expect the same support under a government of any other party? Do you think you will have McGuinty forever?

Hell, McGuinty's policy in Caledonia might very well help contribute to his downfall! You can bet that if it's perceived as such there will be little support from Queen's Park ever again.

[charter.rights]

Do YOU speak for all of Haldimand County?

You may feel that Six Nations is ahead of the game right now, under a McGuinty government. That's what I mean by short term thinking.

Let's get back to this debate next year, after McGuinty no doubt wins an overwhelming majority based on his support for Six Nations...NOT!

Do you expect the same support under a government of any other party? Do you think you will have McGuinty forever?

Hell, McGuinty's policy in Caledonia might very well help contribute to his downfall! You can bet that if it's perceived as such there will be little support from Queen's Park ever again.

So not only to you claim to talk for a "town of 40,000" but you can predict the future too? Bill you are such a delustionist. With all that dementia you suffer from I suspect it is time to change your diaper.

According to all the people I talk to on a regular basis, Caledonia is long forgotten. Very few of them saw it as McGuinty's fault. Many at the time did see Fantino as being a culprit, but since he is gone now they really don't care to discuss it. In fact most of those I have contact with just want the whole thing to shut up. It is done and over with.

So while McGuinty may have made mistakes in the past, most people are focused on other things. With Hudak being linked to Mike Harris, I doubt that there will be any hope of him forming any kind of a majority - even if he can muster that. However, I do think that McGuinty is like Chretien, in that everyone might loath him, but he has at least done the right thing in many cases. The fact that he has changed with popular opinion also plays well with those who don't like the Harper dictatorship.

So we all know that you do not speak for "a town of 40,0000", let alone the popular opinion of the general public. Six Nations has managed to move forward in 500 years of fear-based verbal and institutional assaults and I highly suspect that they will continue beyond the likes of people like you, who try to substitute their own myopic and hate-filled opinions for popular opinion. You are really a nobody, and your viewpoints and opinions concerning Caledonia and Six Nations really means absolutely nothing.

So at the end of the day as us Canadians go back to sleep and let the world fly by us, the relationship with Six Nations will go back to normal, until the next dispute rises. The reality is that Six Nations is legally, and morally in the right to stop development at Caledonia, and according to the polls at the time, 80% of Canadians supported the settlement of al outstanding land claims. You can expect a long cold decade ahead.

Edited November 21, 2010 by charter.rights

[Argus]

No thanks. I don't swing that way. If you know what I mean.

But if you are that lonely, take a stroll on Somerset.

It's an interesting anomaly of Leftist thinking that implying anything bad about homosexuals is akin to a hate crime, and yet so many of them like to sneeringly imply homosexuality as an insult.

But then, hypocrisy is your middle name when you're a brainless Leftist.

[Argus]

No doubt this is a result of the greater awareness of their constitutional obligations, part of which is due to protests like DCE and Ipperwash.

No doubt this will be one of the reasons they'll be thrown out of office next year and replaced by conservatives.

[Shwa]

It's an interesting anomaly of Leftist thinking that implying anything bad about homosexuals is akin to a hate crime, and yet so many of them like to sneeringly imply homosexuality as an insult.

It wasn't meant as an insult. I have a couple of good friends that are homosexual and they know 'I don't swing that way' as well.

When another man invites me to "bite" him, I respectfully decline since I don't do those sorts of activities with other men. That you apparently invite other men to make physical contact with you using their mouths, is no business of mine, though it is noted.

But then, hypocrisy is your middle name when you're a brainless Leftist.

Oh not at all - neither brainless or Leftist. The way in which you were easily pwned should be proof of that. However, I do maintain that someone who responds with "sometimes people need killing" after an expressed sentiment of relief that no one was killed at the Douglas Estates protest - well, that is the sign of a lunactic out of touch with reality. Which is also duly noted.

Edited November 21, 2010 by Shwa

[Wild Bill]

When another man invites me to "bite" him, I respectfully decline since I don't do those sorts of activities with other men. That you apparently invite other men to make physical contact with you using their mouths, is no business of mine, though it is noted.

You bite women? Well, chaque a son gout, I suppose.

Still, the idea creeps me out. Sounds like something from an episode of "Criminal Minds"...

[charter.rights]

No doubt this will be one of the reasons they'll be thrown out of office next year and replaced by conservatives.

Maybe but I doubt it. Regardless, the government MUST comply with the law and it really doesn;t matter whether or not they are Liberals or Conservatives. The fact remains that aboriginal law not only reigns supreme but the extent of it is being strengthened almost every day in one form or another. It is a reality, and the Provincial Conservatives will not be changing anything to do with aboriginal rights, or their response to it.

I am curious though how you and Wild Bill can predict the future with any accuracy. You certainly don't represent the majority of people in Ontario, and I highly doubt that most Ontarians are even concerned about the aboriginal issues and protests once they are over.

Edited November 21, 2010 by charter.rights

[Shady]

It wasn't meant as an insult. I have a couple of good friends that are homosexual and they know 'I don't swing that way' as well.

LOL. I can't believe you actually used the "some of my best friends are...." routine as a way of defending your previous statement. That's classic!

[Shady]

Maybe but I doubt it.

More like you hope not.

Regardless, the government MUST comply with the law

I agree. Now if natives would also start complying with the law, there might actually be some progress.

[Shwa]

You bite women? Well, chaque a son gout, I suppose.

Still, the idea creeps me out. Sounds like something from an episode of "Criminal Minds"...

Who said I do the biting? Or are you still in the 60's gramps?

Edited November 22, 2010 by Shwa

[Shwa]

LOL. I can't believe you actually used the "some of my best friends are...." routine as a way of defending your previous statement. That's classic!

The joke is on you son, to quote, I said :" I have a couple of good friends that are..."

And I do.

No defense required.

[Argus]

It wasn't meant as an insult.

Yeah, it was. But honesty is not something to be expected of your sort.

Oh not at all - neither brainless or Leftist. The way in which you were easily pwned should be proof of that.

Another sign of adolescents on the internet is how they brag about their imaginary prowess.