Caledonia The town That Law Forgot

[Who's Doing What?]

It was a direct response to another poster, who brought up "Soviet era propaganda."

Odd that you take to task the person who doesn't align with you politically, rather than the instigator of this debate method.

So it's not the reference, but the poster.

You can search my posts and find I am more likely politically aligned with the poster I'm "take(ing) to Task".

Hilter/Holocaust is an automatic disqualification. Soviet era propoganda, is not far off everyday American propoganda. To say someone would deny the holocaust is immediate failure.

Edited November 10, 2010 by Who's Doing What?

[bloodyminded]

Well there's no question it is with you and this nonsensical complaint. I brought up the Soviet era propaganda as a type of in your face, total, bald-faced lying denial that we recognize from backwards retrograde countries like that.

I wasn't critiquing your summoning of the term. At all. I understand that your heavily-politicized self-righteousness renders you incapable of understanding basic English; but I put it to you that this is not my fault.

I did not accuse the poster of being a communist or wanting to murder people, now did I?

Not that I noticed. Which is why I never suggested any such thing.

And his "No, there was no violence by native people" is worthy of being called total bullshit. So I did. You think that equates to Holocaust Denial?

Where the hell did you get this notion that I think any such thing? Try to be specific.

And you have the gall to self-righteously accuse others of criticizing the side they disagree with? Phhht.

So, you concoct a caricature of my views, and then shoot your own invention down.

Well done.

[Shwa]

So, you concoct a caricature of my views, and then shoot your own invention down.

Well done.

No doubt an inventiveness thoroughly established during many childhood games of Cowboys and Indians.

[bloodyminded]

No doubt an inventiveness thoroughly established during many childhood games of Cowboys and Indians.

Or "Canadians" and Immigrants, interestingly viewed as if from the "Indians" perspective of cultural takeover.

Edited November 14, 2010 by bloodyminded

[Keepitsimple]

Peter Worthington writes an interesting story that compares Ipperwash and Caledonia. I won't bother posting excerpts....it's better to read the whole article - for those who are interested in a little more that what one reads in the papers.

Caledonia Crisis of Facts: http://www.torontosun.com/comment/columnists/peter_worthington/2010/11/13/16126066.html

[Argus]

Is it okay to post "hate speech" here? Because apparently to some of those "anti-racist" wack jobs, Christie Blatchford's book on the Caledonia mess and how the police under that incompetent buffoon Julian Fantino handled it - or didn't.

But now, occupiers were showing up in force, at least a dozen of them converging on the lone OPP officer, who had already determined that the driver had no licence, no permit and no insurance — oh, and that the car had no plates. He called for backup, a plea that, in the normal course of events in the policing world, usually brings an enormous, instantaneous, gut-level response: Every cop who can get there does.

No one arrived.

In what was probably the single most important early indicator of how the OPP was disintegrating from within, its officers were no longer answering a call for help from one of their own. The constable had been left to fend for himself.

Furious, heartsick, he did what he could — cautioned the driver — and left before things got ugly. Back at the station, he filed a formal complaint. Within a matter of weeks, he was verbally disciplined for having created a possible “flashpoint.”

It was a sign of things to come. The occupation was just a month old, and whenever OPP officers dared speak up about the way things were going, they were slapped down.

If the Suspect wasn't white, the police walked away

Enforced cowardice and non-policing by the order of Julian Fantino and Dalton McGuinty.

[Shwa]

Is it okay to post "hate speech" here? Because apparently to some of those "anti-racist" wack jobs, Christie Blatchford's book on the Caledonia mess and how the police under that incompetent buffoon Julian Fantino handled it - or didn't.

But now, occupiers were showing up in force, at least a dozen of them converging on the lone OPP officer, who had already determined that the driver had no licence, no permit and no insurance — oh, and that the car had no plates. He called for backup, a plea that, in the normal course of events in the policing world, usually brings an enormous, instantaneous, gut-level response: Every cop who can get there does.

No one arrived.

In what was probably the single most important early indicator of how the OPP was disintegrating from within, its officers were no longer answering a call for help from one of their own. The constable had been left to fend for himself.

Furious, heartsick, he did what he could — cautioned the driver — and left before things got ugly. Back at the station, he filed a formal complaint. Within a matter of weeks, he was verbally disciplined for having created a possible “flashpoint.”

It was a sign of things to come. The occupation was just a month old, and whenever OPP officers dared speak up about the way things were going, they were slapped down.

If the Suspect wasn't white, the police walked away

Enforced cowardice and non-policing by the order of Julian Fantino and Dalton McGuinty.

But no one got killed. Whew!

[Wild Bill]

But no one got killed. Whew!

Who would have done the killing? If an OPP officer stops a native and that's considered confrontational, are we to think it would have provoked the OFFICER to shoot the native?

What everyone is tiptoeing around is that the OPP and on up to McGuinty were afraid that the NATIVES would start shooting! Or that they would put someone in such fear for their life that they fired first, a la Dudley George.

Me, I take a simpler view on how things should have been handled. If you do something criminal you should be arrested. If you murder someone you should be hung! Race is irrelevant. Red, white or green, the law should apply to everyone equally and so should its penalties. Special treatment according to race is racism in itself and frankly, rather patronizing.

[Shwa]

Who would have done the killing? If an OPP officer stops a native and that's considered confrontational, are we to think it would have provoked the OFFICER to shoot the native?

Would it matter who would have done the killing? Well yeah. I mean seriously Bill, you live in the area, Natives are stopped by cops all the time. It is the situation that called for different thinking, not the races involved.

What everyone is tiptoeing around is that the OPP and on up to McGuinty were afraid that the NATIVES would start shooting! Or that they would put someone in such fear for their life that they fired first, a la Dudley George.

Right but either way, it would have been the Indians fault. Good one.

Me, I take a simpler view on how things should have been handled. If you do something criminal you should be arrested. If you murder someone you should be hung! Race is irrelevant. Red, white or green, the law should apply to everyone equally and so should its penalties. Special treatment according to race is racism in itself and frankly, rather patronizing.

Well good thing this situation wasn't handled by simpletons. And no one got killed. Whew!

[Wild Bill]

Well good thing this situation wasn't handled by simpletons. And no one got killed. Whew!

Nearly happened a few times. When someone loosens the wheel nuts on a housewife's car TWICE it's fortunate no one got killed indeed.

Or how about Sam Gualtieri?

http://www.caledoniawakeupcall.com/news/SamGualtieri.jpg

http://www.caledoniawakeupcall.com/updates/070915spectator7.html

"Caledonia - Six Nations leaders have condemned the beating of a Caledonia home builder during a confrontation at a residential building site Thursday, calling it "an atrocity."

Sam Gualtieri, 52, suffered serious facial injuries and possible brain damage when he was assaulted with boards or other clubs inside a house he's building for his daughter at Stirling Woods in Caledonia.

Mohawk Chief Allen MacNaughton expressed anger and disgust when he was shown a picture of the beaten man yesterday.

"I believe it's an atrocity, sir," MacNaughton told Joe Gualtieri, 46, who had taken the pictures of his injured brother at West Haldimand General Hospital earlier in the day.

MacNaughton and Cayuga subchief Leroy Hill had expressed their regrets to the Gualtieri family at a press conference minutes before the younger brother walked up to them and showed the pictures.

"I believe he was a blow away from dying," Gualtieri said as he laid the pictures on the table in front of them.

MacNaughton also distanced himself from the native protesters who were allegedly involved in the attack.

"We cannot condone the violent actions of a few that resulted in Sam Gualtieri being hospitalized. We wish to extend our regrets to Mr. Gualtieri's family and pray for a full recovery," he said."

So even Chief MacNaughton admits some violence happened. Good thing the whole protest and the policing weren't handled by simpletons. And no one got killed. Whew!

[AngusThermopyle]

I've read the excerpts of this book that have been posted on line. It does not appear to be rascist in any form that I've seen so far, actually it looks like a very good read. I'm going to have to pick up a copy of it. It appears that the students who protested it in such draconian fashion simply served as usefull idiots in that they appear to have drawn a considerable amount of attention to it.

[Shwa]

So even Chief MacNaughton admits some violence happened. Good thing the whole protest and the policing weren't handled by simpletons. And no one got killed. Whew!

Is there someone saying that violence did not happen? They should police cowboy bars more often on Saturday nights, since there is alot of violence there.

But... no one was killed. So our methods of problem resolution are getting better.

[charter.rights]

...they appear to have drawn a considerable amount of attention to it.

So you would agree that the protest - their form of protest - was a successful event?

The problem with Blatchford is that I understand that the OPP were prohibited from talking with her. Yet he book is filled with first-hand quotations of what went on between a police officer and soneone she does not quote. In one part I read, she is quoting a discussion that went on between an OPP officer and a native behind the barricade. Now where do you think she got all this information? She did not interview the player, nor does she provide references fro those direct quote, such as testimony in court or some official source.

Then you will find that she did interview 3 main people....Gary McHale...Merlyn Kinrade and Mark Vandermass. I have no doubt that she even had full access to numberswatchdog.com that has documented many events. But she does not provide sources for important discussions she has quoted and had no ability to obtain them.

These leaves here work a great fiction, and nothing more, IMO.

[Wild Bill]

So you would agree that the protest - their form of protest - was a successful event?

The problem with Blatchford is that I understand that the OPP were prohibited from talking with her. Yet he book is filled with first-hand quotations of what went on between a police officer and soneone she does not quote. In one part I read, she is quoting a discussion that went on between an OPP officer and a native behind the barricade. Now where do you think she got all this information? She did not interview the player, nor does she provide references fro those direct quote, such as testimony in court or some official source.

Then you will find that she did interview 3 main people....Gary McHale...Merlyn Kinrade and Mark Vandermass. I have no doubt that she even had full access to numberswatchdog.com that has documented many events. But she does not provide sources for important discussions she has quoted and had no ability to obtain them.

These leaves here work a great fiction, and nothing more, IMO.

What are you talking about? Her book is full of quotes with OPP officers! You're just pulling premises out of your butt and spinning arguments.

You sound like someone decrying "The Cat in the Hat" as cruelty to animals, because its obvious you never read even the flyleaf, let alone the entire book.

You should change the filter in your dreamcatcher once in a while.

[AngusThermopyle]

So you would agree that the protest - their form of protest - was a successful event?

I would say it was sucessfull in so far as it will increase sales of her book. As to achieving their ends, no, an abject failure. They attempted to silence her and instead drew far more attention to her, usefull idiots.

As to the protest itself, despicable, how dare they decide who has the right to be heard and who does not? If they were intelligent enough to realize what they had done then they should be ashamed of themselves. As far as I know this is still a country where all have an equal right to be heard.

[Wild Bill]

I would say it was sucessfull in so far as it will increase sales of her book. As to achieving their ends, no, an abject failure. They attempted to silence her and instead drew far more attention to her, usefull idiots.

As to the protest itself, despicable, how dare they decide who has the right to be heard and who does not? If they were intelligent enough to realize what they had done then they should be ashamed of themselves. As far as I know this is still a country where all have an equal right to be heard.

They're just drama queens, Angus! They are so proud of what they were able to do but don't have the wit to know if it was a positive or a negative action in the first place.

No sense of ethics and no perspective. A clear case of prolonged adolescence. Medical science has been telling us that the part of our brains that deals with cause and effect takes longer to mature.

That's why adults are supposed to keep adolescents in check. They can't be trusted on their own!

[Argus]

Well good thing this situation wasn't handled by simpletons. And no one got killed. Whew!

Why is this a good thing? Sometimes people need killing. Sometimes they deserve to be killed. The ultimate enforcement of all law in Canada rests on the basis that if you don't obey it the police will drag you to jail, and if you resist they will kill you. If the police are afraid to use force to enforce law then there is no law. So what you're saying is that it's better to have no law, to hacve chaos, rather than risking lawbreakers being killed.

[Shwa]

Why is this a good thing? Sometimes people need killing. Sometimes they deserve to be killed. The ultimate enforcement of all law in Canada rests on the basis that if you don't obey it the police will drag you to jail, and if you resist they will kill you. If the police are afraid to use force to enforce law then there is no law. So what you're saying is that it's better to have no law, to hacve chaos, rather than risking lawbreakers being killed.

You're so cute when you go completely over the top. Did you get spittle or drool on your keyboard when you wrote that Argus?

[Shady]

You're so cute when you go completely over the top. Did you get spittle or drool on your keyboard when you wrote that Argus?

He's right. Much of the time, whether a law breaker is killed or not, rests with the law breakers behavior. That's not over the top. That's reality.

[Shwa]

He's right. Much of the time, whether a law breaker is killed or not, rests with the law breakers behavior. That's not over the top. That's reality.

That is Shady's "reality" which is more staged, like the television shows 'Survivor,' 'Amazing Race' or 'What Not to Wear.'

What determines lethal force is the perception of the police officer in combination with their training and their orders. This is why when the police kill someone they are eligible for counselling and why their actions are internally investigated. Because they all don't go around thinking that "some people need killing." Despite what you think, we have pretty good cops who can follow orders.

Good God! Are all your shirts brown? You little sturmabteilung you!

[Shady]

What determines lethal force is the perception of the police officer in combination with their training and their orders.

Yes, and even when a law breaker's actions lead to some kind of non-lethal force, there's a chance it could be lethal. My interpretation of his "some people need killing" is that of an offender doing something that requires lethal force. Just because a police officer kills sombody, doesn't mean it was the wrong thing to do.

Let's just say I tried to attack a police officer with a knife. Chances are they'd use some type of force. And there's a chance I could be killed.

[Shwa]

Yes, and even when a law breaker's actions lead to some kind of non-lethal force, there's a chance it could be lethal. My interpretation of his "some people need killing" is that of an offender doing something that requires lethal force. Just because a police officer kills sombody, doesn't mean it was the wrong thing to do.

Let's just say I tried to attack a police officer with a knife. Chances are they'd use some type of force. And there's a chance I could be killed.

And Argus' right-over-the-top lunatic rant was in response to this comment regarding the Douglas Estates protest:

Well good thing this situation wasn't handled by simpletons. And no one got killed. Whew!

Your theories are noted, but they don't change the reality of the situation.

[charter.rights]

He's right. Much of the time, whether a law breaker is killed or not, rests with the law breakers behavior. That's not over the top. That's reality.

So the lawbreakers in this case are the government and the corporations who go ahead without consultation. Do they deserve to be shot and killed too?

The protest against breaking the law is lawful and just. And what had proven to be precipitous is the illegal injunction that the police tried to serve on the protesters and they in turn resisted. They were in the right just as the Ipperwash protesters were. Unfortunately we didn't find that out until one man was unjustifiably killed and a couple of millions worth of inquiry took place.

[Shady]

So the lawbreakers in this case are the government and the corporations who go ahead without consultation. Do they deserve to be shot and killed too?

Yes. If individuals from those governments and corporations attack protestors with knives, then absolutely force, even lethal force may be necessary.

[charter.rights]

Yes. If individuals from those governments and corporations attack protestors with knives, then absolutely force, even lethal force may be necessary.

Yet, the protesters did not use knives either and leathal force was still an option for the OPP. Why else would they have had high powered weapons pointed at women and children in a number of protests?

So what you are saying in essence is that the force is justified against unarmed Indians but not against armed police forces that are harming people to enforce an illegal injunction?

The "push back" at Caledonia is well recorded and did not contain any protester initiated violence beyond a few tussles with police take downs. In the end Six Nations protesters were able to keep control of the DCE site without much bloodshed and no one was killed. And at the end of the day, the protesters were legally in the right to occupy and secure the site against the Clownadonians that tried to stir up the crap.