Caledonia The town That Law Forgot

[charter.rights]

If I boil down what you're saying here, it means we are not the ones who stole the land, but we bought the stolen goods, and moved in.

Actually it means that we are holding the goods...$200 billion worth...and using it as if it is business as usual. It is no wonder that corruption reigns supreme in the government. The government apologists think it is reasonable and deserved.

However, the Crown of Canada was indivisible from the Crown of Great Britain prior to 1982 and as such inherited the whole lock, stock and barrel. So not only did they inherit the "Indian Problem" but they inherited the stolen goods as well. That does not legalize the theft, or the fact the goods are stolen goods. It merely passes on the requirement for accountability - the full lock, stock and barrel of it.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Actually it means that we are holding the goods...$200 billion worth...and using it as if it is business as usual. It is no wonder that corruption reigns supreme in the government. The government apologists think it is reasonable and deserved.

However, the Crown of Canada was indivisible from the Crown of Great Britain prior to 1982 and as such inherited the whole lock, stock and barrel. So not only did they inherit the "Indian Problem" but they inherited the stolen goods as well. That does not legalize the theft, or the fact the goods are stolen goods. It merely passes on the requirement for accountability - the full lock, stock and barrel of it.

Reality sucks doesn't it. You are a vanquished people, a few centuries ago you would have been lucky to have been left alive. Yet you were left alive, and not very thankful for it. Now there is just a bitter disdain for that decision to have allowed that to happen.

[Shady]

If I boil down what you're saying here, it means we are not the ones who stole the land, but we bought the stolen goods, and moved in.

No, we won. We prevailed. There is no trust, there is no account, and there is no money. And there never will be. People like "charter rights" need to learn to accept it and move on.

[Shady]

Reality sucks doesn't it. You are a vanquished people, a few centuries ago you would have been lucky to have been left alive. Yet you were left alive, and not very thankful for it. Now there is just a bitter disdain for that decision to have allowed that to happen.

Exactly.

[guyser]

Reality sucks doesn't it. You are a vanquished people, a few centuries ago you would have been lucky to have been left alive. Yet you were left alive, and not very thankful for it. Now there is just a bitter disdain for that decision to have allowed that to happen.

Exactly.

The two dumbest posts of the day. Congrats to you both.

[Shady]

The two dumbest posts of the day. Congrats to you both.

The truth hurts huh?

[charter.rights]

Reality sucks doesn't it. You are a vanquished people, a few centuries ago you would have been lucky to have been left alive. Yet you were left alive, and not very thankful for it. Now there is just a bitter disdain for that decision to have allowed that to happen.

Ha ha ha ha ha. You are obviously conflicted and out of semi-intelligent rebuttal. You go on girl with your ad hominen. It is so comical and cute coming from YOU.

[Argus]

The two dumbest posts of the day. Congrats to you both.

Charter Rights and his ilk don't bring out any desire to negotiate or cooperate in otherwise well-meaning people. He not only fails to evoke sympathy or care or concern but instead provokes contempt and disdain.

Much like those native thugs. They don't bring out any desire from ordinary people to listen to their case or cause, but rather a desire to send in the military and beat the living shit out of anyone who acts up.

[charter.rights]

Charter Rights and his ilk don't bring out any desire to negotiate or cooperate in otherwise well-meaning people. He not only fails to evoke sympathy or care or concern but instead provokes contempt and disdain.

Much like those native thugs. They don't bring out any desire from ordinary people to listen to their case or cause, but rather a desire to send in the military and beat the living shit out of anyone who acts up.

Not at all. I have advocated all along for the government to comply with The Law - to consult, negotiate, accommodate and reconcile the issues. I realize you didn't catch that. Your anger clouds your ability to see what is really being said.

Take another look. I have presented the proof that the government doesn't comply with the law. So rather than whining like a little schoolgirl, what are YOU going to do about it?

Edited November 1, 2010 by charter.rights

[Shady]

Not at all. I have advocated all along for the government to comply with The Law

Perhaps at some point in the future, you'll also ask for FN to do the same.

[guyser]

Charter Rights and his ilk don't bring out any desire to negotiate or cooperate in otherwise well-meaning people. He not only fails to evoke sympathy or care or concern but instead provokes contempt and disdain.

Much like those native thugs. They don't bring out any desire from ordinary people to listen to their case or cause, but rather a desire to send in the military and beat the living shit out of anyone who acts up.

I cannot entirely disagree with you. I think they have a message and frankly one of them sure seems to have the insight, listing facts etc, but yes disdain and comtempt are well chosen words.

I find some of what they post as sticking their tongue out at Canada and it is irritating, however most on here know the Govt has handled the FN 's horribly, ripped them off and tons more,not to mention given the FN's a ton of money for day to day stuff only to see it squandered .

So yeah, it is frustrating, but I dont think you or I would disagree that were we in the same shoes , knowing our fore fathers had wronged us, would not stoop to the same level as some of the FN's have. I would like to think we wouldn't, but damn, knowing how bad it has been , I kind of doubt it.

That said, the two other posters who thumbed their nose and said nope we dont owe a dime etc etc , with the idiot lap dog nodding his head sure have posted the dumbest two posts in a long while. So congrats to them.

Edited November 1, 2010 by guyser

[Sir Bandelot]

Reality sucks doesn't it. You are a vanquished people, a few centuries ago you would have been lucky to have been left alive. Yet you were left alive, and not very thankful for it. Now there is just a bitter disdain for that decision to have allowed that to happen.

They were vanquished, but legal treaties were drawn up at the time. So they were not quite so completely vanquished, were they. If there is a valid legal claim, that creates a real conundrum, doesn't it. Simple fact is, it will not go away on its own no matter how much people like you don't like it. This injustice has already been recognized by the UN.

UNITED NATIONS: Canada was not just at the wrong end of a losing vote here in September 2007 for the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, it was a glaring spotlight on a failed Tory government campaign, which cost Canada prestige and respect. And its actions will not be forgotten or disappear, as highlighted by the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, Louise Arbour, who said she was astonished that Canada voted against this declaration.

http://www.harperindex.ca/ViewArticle.cfm?Ref=00122

[guyser]

The truth hurts huh?

There wasnt an ounce of truth in the first post, and Jerry probably cringed at the site of a +1 from you .

Shady, if I had the slightest inclination that you could (1) discern the truth, (2) speak the truth,and (3)not act like a trained monkey (apologies to trained monkies everywhere) much of what you say may be worth reading.

"Fred has a doughnut" becomes "tuna and peanut butter go well together" by the time you filter things through.

[Argus]

I find some of what they post as sticking their tongue out at Canada and it is irritating, however most on here know the Govt has handled the FN 's horribly, ripped them off and tons more,not to mention given the FN's a ton of money for day to day stuff only to see it squandered .

The FN are in a horrible situation which has no ready solution because most of the players have a vested interest in perpetuating the present arrangement. And that most definitely includes the native chiefs, who are all sitting pretty with big, fat pay cheques and their stubby fingers into all sorts of pies from incoming federal largess. The ordinary natives might be poor but the chiefs are doing fine, thank you very much, and have no interest in changing things. All the native "experts" and consultants are doing fine the way things are, too, and you certainly can't expect the bureaucrats at INA to declare they need to have less power and authority.

So we're stuck with absurd, ridiculous demands for us to surrender half the land in the country or half a trillion dollars or some such, which, like the Palestinians' unshakable demand they be allowed to return to their homes in Israel ensures no one will engage in serious negotiations or discussions.

And any federal government that tries will have most of the native chiefs and their supporters angrily on their backs. Lots of fuss and bad publicity and virtually no chance of any success.

We all know the reserves are unsustainable in today's economic world. You can't stick five hundred people out in the woods and expect them to be any more than welfare recipients for life. They need to be in the cities with the rest of us, and integrated into society. It's funny how we talk about the need for immigrants to integrate but nobody seems to be stating that about the natives because, somehow or other, their culture is sacrosanct and it's better for them to live for generations on welfare getting drunk than to integrate into the modern world.

Edited November 1, 2010 by Argus

[guyser]

Not at all.

You would do well and re-read what argus wrote. I dont necessqairly agree with him much, but he is right.Concentrate on the "otherwise well meaning" part and remember that next time.

Your anger clouds your ability to see what is really being said.

There wasnt any.....but this goes right to the point that the message is lost in the way it is put forth.

Take another look. I have presented the proof that the government doesn't comply with the law. So rather than whining like a little schoolgirl, what are YOU going to do about it?

Yes you have, but the last part is the baiting shite that irritates everyone. we all will have to pay for the sins of previous govts no matter how it gets solved and you damn well know it will hurt,so why poke the stick in the eye? Yes, I know, the other side pokes too, but if any FN wants to get this settled, they too need to step up, settle down and get this done.

[guyser]

The FN are in a horrible situation which has no ready solution because most of the players have a vested interest in perpetuating the present arrangement. And that most definitely includes the native chiefs, who are all sitting pretty with big, fat pay cheques and their stubby fingers into all sorts of pies from incoming federal largess. The ordinary natives might be poor but the chiefs are doing fine, thank you very much, and have no interest in changing things. All the native "experts" and consultants are doing fine the way things are, too, and you certainly can't expect the bureaucrats at INA to declare they need to have less power and authority.

So we're stuck with absurd, ridiculous demands for us to surrender half the land in the country or half a trillion dollars or some such, which, like the Palestinians' unshakable demand they be allowed to return to their homes in Israel ensures no one will engage in serious negotiations or discussions.

And any federal government that tries will have most of the native chiefs and their supporters angrily on their backs. Lots of fuss and bad publicity and virtually no chance of any success.

We all know the reserves are unsustainable in today's economic world. You can't stick five hundred people out in the woods and expect them to be any more than welfare recipients for life. They need to be in the cities with the rest of us, and integrated into society. It's funny how we talk about the need for immigrants to integrate but nobody seems to be stating that about the natives because, somehow or other, their culture is sacrosanct and it's better for them to live for generations on welfare getting drunk than to integrate into the modern world.

Bolds are mine.

The first two are obvious and I agree with that whole heartedly.

The last bold.....gulp......I am guilty of in spades. I have never asked that question and have felt that review of the hows and why of immigration vis a vis the FN's needs to happen. Sure some of them can make a go of it, and some immigrants can live 100k outisde of Chapleau and make a go of it. But you are correct, as long as most remain where they are, then most will remain in the same condition they are today.

Afterall , the FN would move if the salmon or the deer moved on. They need to apply that to providing for themselves, but lets get the damn claims settled first. Anything else is looked upon as suspect from all angles.

[CANADIEN]

I would suggest that you start calculating what the leases on 900,000 acres would be worth just in today's FMV and then roll that back 160 years to when it was first leased out to the benefit of Six Nations. Then add to that the $100,000 or so that Six Nations knows went missing from that same trust account in 1844, all with compound interests according to Appendix B - Rates of Interest on Capital and Revenue Accounts.

Six Nations have done the audit and made the calculations and the results, while staggering comes to between $200 billion and $1 trillion. You call it what you want. I call it theft if the government does not come clean on it.

Any calculation would have to take in account what a lease or sale of land would have been worth AT THE TIME, with compounded interests, A lot of money, but I doubt seriously that an independent audit would arrive at 1 trillion dollars or so.

[CANADIEN]

If by the government of Canada you mean the British government before Canada even existed. They can take it up with the King of England. Leave regular Canadian taxpayers alone.

Through the Constitution Act of 1867, the federal government became responsible for Idian Affairs. Through the Statute of Westminster of 1931, Canada's assumed all the responsibilities and obligations of the Brtish Crown in regards to Canadian affairs (except changes to our Constitution, until 1982).

Like it or not, this is Canada's, not Great Britain's responsibility to assume.

[CANADIEN]

Reality sucks doesn't it. You are a vanquished people, a few centuries ago you would have been lucky to have been left alive. Yet you were left alive, and not very thankful for it. Now there is just a bitter disdain for that decision to have allowed that to happen.

Canadian history is really not your strong suit, is it? Prejudice (not say worst, considering your "just be thankful your ancestors were left alive" stance), on the other end...

[CANADIEN]

No, we won. We prevailed. There is no trust, there is no account, and there is no money. And there never will be. People like "charter rights" need to learn to accept it and move on.

Never a trust or account, right? Let's build a time machine so you can say that to the 1844 Royal Commission that found problems with the way money held in trust for the Six Nations were managed.

[Shady]

Never a trust or account, right? Let's build a time machine so you can say that to the 1844 Royal Commission that found problems with the way money held in trust for the Six Nations were managed.

Once again, where's this so-called trust?

[charter.rights]

Any calculation would have to take in account what a lease or sale of land would have been worth AT THE TIME, with compounded interests, A lot of money, but I doubt seriously that an independent audit would arrive at 1 trillion dollars or so.

The leases are on-going. So not only are the principles calculated on FMV at the time they were first made, but since many of the leases were for 99 years and never renewed, they must consider the FMV after 1900 onward, on an annual evaluation.

Using my example of the Welland Canal lands, a $12-14000 value in 1824 became a $500 million to $1 billion trust account it isn't hard to see that the value of 900,000 acres could easily balloon into the figures Six Nations accountants came up with. From an initial simple calculation at $5 per acre (using 1824 figures for the Welland Canal), before interest the value of Six Nations lands in 1824 would have been worth about $4,500,000. Compound interests over the years in accordance with the references i provided earlier and I would have to think that $1 trillion would be a conservative amount. Nonetheless, Six Nations says with leases, and the cash the government has been holding on their behalf amount to $250 billion to $1 trillion. We are in deep dodo.

[charter.rights]

Once again, where's this so-called trust?

Hidden in government papers. The government has acknowledged that they hold a "substantial" trust in favour of Six Nations. They just won't account for and provide a full accounting. We do know historically that the government took money from the trust to start the Grand River Navigation Company, and to build Osgoode Hall. And we do know that neither the GRNC or the Upper Law Society of Canada ever paid back into that fund. And we also know that William Jarvis the Indian Agent was found to have embezzled tens of thousands of dollars. So where is the account? Apparently we have been enjoying it, spending it for our institutions and businesses, and squandering it on illicit activities..over the years. But the bulk of it still exists and the government refuses to say how much...even though Six Nations has done the audit from their archives and the archives of Great Britain and found it way beyond what anyone could imagine.

[Shady]

Hidden in government papers.

Ahh, it's hidden. Is that like Area 51?

[CANADIEN]

Once again, where's this so-called trust?

Ask the Government. They misapproriated the funds.

But money was held in trust, as evidence by the following:

- The first trustees were appointed by Order-in-Council in 1797

- An Act dated 1839 diredted that all sums collected from people illegally occupying Indian or Crown Land be held by the Receiver General and approriated for the benefit of the First Nations.

- The investments of money held in trust for the Six Nations is documented up to at least 1855. (a bit of reading for you; now that I take at face value everything that is in there, or that expect you to accept any of it, but it includes way more historical research than "we prevailed, there's no trust")

Edited November 2, 2010 by CANADIEN