Caledonia The town That Law Forgot

[Shady]

Anybody else see the Michael Coren show with Christie Blatchford today? It's quite enraging to hear some of the things that are going on, and went on in Caledonia. I never thought I'd hear of Candians having to show their passports in order to be granted access to their homes by the police. I still don't understand how law breakers get treated above the law, while law abiding citizens get treated like common criminals.

[Shwa]

I'm simply demonstrating my firm belief in peace, order and good government.

You, on the other hand, are demonstrating your paternalistic bigotry. I expect the same behaviour of all, regardless of race. Bigots like you don't believe people who don't have white skin can ever measure up to common standards of civilzed behaviour, and so get outraged that others are "picking on them" for acting uncivilized.

But carry on. Continue to demonstrate your bigotry.

Why Argus, was the phrase "powerless white guy" a little too politically incorrect for you and now I must be the bigot? Or was it a simple demonstration of how predictable you have become?

No doubt that you have a firm belief in peace, order and good government, but it is your utter distaste for the dirty work to get there that I find fascinating. And I get the sense of that dilemma of yours Argus: if anything has been demonstrated it is how women, aboriginals and immigrants have thoroughly emasculated you over the years.

Who knows - maybe your emasculation is just the ticket. Now you can qualify for some of those equity programs you are always carrying on about.

You know, the ones "peace, order and good government" created?

[charter.rights]

Anybody else see the Michael Coren show with Christie Blatchford today? It's quite enraging to hear some of the things that are going on, and went on in Caledonia.

Especially enraging since the things she claims never actually happened. Like:

I never thought I'd hear of Candians having to show their passports in order to be granted access to their homes by the police.

Never ever happened. Period.

I still don't understand how law breakers get treated above the law, while law abiding citizens get treated like common criminals.

Maybe ask Harper why, after 180 years the Plank Road has not been settled. When the government asked Six Nations to negotiate instead of litigate in 1996 there was a promise they would seriously consider the issue. The Courts have recognized that Six Nations did not surrender the Plank Road, and were prepared to hear the case when the government asked for negotiation. Yet in 11 years very little happened because the government was never ready.

So I would agree with your sentiment. How is it that the government can ignore the law to consult, negotiate, accommodate and reconcile for so long and those who stand up to the tyranny of government are criminalized instead?

Gary McHale deserved to be arrested. So did all the rest of the yahoos that were disturbing the peace and security of Caledonia.

The OPP were upholding the law. The Occupation of DCE in Caledonia was a international dispute and the only role for the OPP was to keep the peace. It wasn't to remove the protesters. Nor was it to arrest those who were protesting and blocking roads. They did what they were required to do and along with Six Nation arrests that were made for a couple of punch-outs there were just as many Caledonia residents who deserved to be arrested as well.

Edited October 31, 2010 by charter.rights

[Argus]

Then again, maybe you just got taken in by the hype and propaganda of someone whose sensationalism adds to her profits?

I've read a lot of her stuff. I've read a lot of your stuff. While I don't believe every single thing she writes is unvarnished truth, I believe _nothing_ of what you write.

[Argus]

Why Argus, was the phrase "powerless white guy" a little too politically incorrect for you and now I must be the bigot?

On the contrary "powerless white guy" is the kind of phrase the politically correct bigots revel in.

But carry on protecting the natives from us evil white guys who dare to hold them to the same standards as "real" people. It's your mission in life, after all.

Even if you're not very good at it.

[bloodyminded]

..........

Edited October 31, 2010 by bloodyminded

[CANADIEN]

The blame goes to a lot of parties here:

- the federal Government, which has let the issue fester for more than 150 yeara

- the provincial government, and the OPP, who has failed in its duty to ensure the security of all people involved

- the thugs who have used violence or the threat of violence (both Natives and non-Natives)

That being said, the brunt of the blame rests with the federal Government. Claims by the Six-Nations that the land in question was not surrendered, by leased, were raised almost 170 years ago. Why has the issue not been solved? (and i am not taking positionj here as to whether or not the cliam is founded). What happened to the money that was held in trust from the lease or sale of Six-Nation land?

[charter.rights]

What happened to the money that was held in trust from the lease or sale of Six-Nation land?

It is part of that $200 billion to $1 trillion trust we owe Six Nations.

[Wild Bill]

Anybody else see the Michael Coren show with Christie Blatchford today? It's quite enraging to hear some of the things that are going on, and went on in Caledonia. I never thought I'd hear of Candians having to show their passports in order to be granted access to their homes by the police. I still don't understand how law breakers get treated above the law, while law abiding citizens get treated like common criminals.

I think you misunderstood, Shady. Christy never reported in her book that citizens had to show their Canadian passports. Rather, natives hand made native passports on pieces of coloured paper and forced citizens to show them in order to leave and return to their homes. Of course, if the citizens had any beer or often even groceries in their car that was usually confiscated.

These were homes that were NOT on the disputed Douglas Creek Estates but were rather "caught behind enemy lines"! These were the homes that the OPP refused to protect.

These native passports still exist. They have been kept by citizens. No doubt, some of their supporters will simply claim that they were frauds, printed by white men trying to antagonize the situation.

Or perhaps they are simply imaginary. They may look and feel real but that is a delusion, since although it would be logical to accept what you can see, smell and feel is real we have already been told some time ago by CR that logic is absolutely a delusion and thus not only is not useful, it can't be trusted.

Edited October 31, 2010 by Wild Bill

[CANADIEN]

It is part of that $200 billion to $1 trillion trust we owe Six Nations.

Hence my question.

[Shwa]

On the contrary "powerless white guy" is the kind of phrase the politically correct bigots revel in.

I don't think so son; I prefer to deal with white guys & gals who have power, the ones that are intelligent enough to understand the concepts of negotiation, compromise and seek consensus.

But carry on protecting the natives from us evil white guys who dare to hold them to the same standards as "real" people. It's your mission in life, after all.

You simply don`t comprehend do you? The whole incident at Douglas Creek Estates was caused and dealt with by your "real people" standards. The same folks that drew up equity legislation and devised immigration rules. At least the Indians will stand up for what they believe in, all you are capable of doing is whining about it on the Internet.

What - do you shake your fist at your screen too?

"I'll show you, I've got standards!"

Even if you're not very good at it.

You fool no one and like I said earlier: you've been thoroughly emasculated by women, aboriginals and immigrants.

Edited October 31, 2010 by Shwa

[charter.rights]

You fool no one and like I said earlier: you've been thoroughly emasculated by women, aboriginals and immigrants.

...and gays. Don't forget gay men...

[Shady]

It is part of that $200 billion to $1 trillion trust we owe Six Nations.

Complete nonsense. Yes, Canadians owe $1 trillion dollars to Six Nations.

And that's a great figure. $200 billion to $1 trillion. Quite the range. But you're forgetting to subtract the free health care, free education, and the free use of other government services they don't pay into, and haven't paid into for decades. So in the end, they actually owe money. I bet you didn't know that.

[charter.rights]

Not all all.

The $100 million that we give Six Nations annually for health, education, social services, infrastructure etc, doesn't even minutely touch the INTEREST on that account.

$200 billion is the conservative amount with accumulated interests that have been accruing since the 1800s, while the most optimistic amount of $1 trillion looks at the fair market values of comparable leases for the times plus compounded interests, and since the money was never paid, and some of what was in the account was misappropriated and embezzled by the government's agent (whom the government is still accountable for) we still have to account for it.

However, the compounded interest to be paid on Indian monies are not in dispute since they were set out by an Order in Council and compounded annually until from 1867 to 1980, when it was compounded quarterly. The discrepancy between the lower and higher values comes about as a result of there not being fixed rates prior to 1867. The lower amounts consider that there was no interest paid on the accounts prior to Confederation, while the higher amount represents the minimum amounts of interest that Great Britain paid on other accounts they held with land values at an equitable rate.

In any case the $200 billion earns on average $35 billion per year in compounded interests while Six Nations only receives $100 million per year in annual transfers. We aren't even making a dent in what we owe them. It is a real account, keeping in mind that the government, holds many such accounts for various First Nations, whom we also owe interest to.

Source: INAC, MANUAL FOR THE ADMINISTRATION OF BAND MONEYS, Indian Moneys Directorate Registration, Revenues and Band Governance Lands and Trust Services October 1997, Revised September 2008

Edited November 1, 2010 by charter.rights

[Shady]

I hate to break it to you, but there's no trust, there's no account, and there's no $200 billion to $1 trillion dollars. (said in a Dr. Evil voice like so...

)

[charter.rights]

I hate to break it to you, but there's no trust, there's no account, and there's no $200 billion to $1 trillion dollars. (said in a Dr. Evil voice like so...

)

I hear what you are saying:

La la la la ...I can't hear you la la la la.

Thanks to Google Translation....

[CANADIEN]

I hate to break it to you, but there's no trust, there's no account, and there's no $200 billion to $1 trillion dollars. (said in a Dr. Evil voice like so...

)

Actually, the Bagot Report of 1844 noted problems with government's management of Indian funds (to use the terms of the day). (Bagot Commission 1844 for a pdf file that contains that info)

While I find the figure of several hundred billions to over a trillion dollars to be a fantasy, the fact remain that money that was to be held in trust for the Six Nations "vanished", and nowadays the interests alone would exceed the cost of education, helath care and services provided.

[charter.rights]

Actually, the Bagot Report of 1844 noted problems with government's management of Indian funds (to use the terms of the day). (Bagot Commission 1844 for a pdf file that contains that info)

While I find the figure of several hundred billions to over a trillion dollars to be a fantasy, the fact remain that money that was to be held in trust for the Six Nations "vanished", and nowadays the interests alone would exceed the cost of education, helath care and services provided.

I would suggest that you start calculating what the leases on 900,000 acres would be worth just in today's FMV and then roll that back 160 years to when it was first leased out to the benefit of Six Nations. Then add to that the $100,000 or so that Six Nations knows went missing from that same trust account in 1844, all with compound interests according to Appendix B - Rates of Interest on Capital and Revenue Accounts.

Six Nations have done the audit and made the calculations and the results, while staggering comes to between $200 billion and $1 trillion. You call it what you want. I call it theft if the government does not come clean on it.

Edited November 1, 2010 by charter.rights

[charter.rights]

Another example to sink your teeth into:

In 1824, 2400 acres were expropriated by statute for the flooding for the Welland Canal. That same statute provided that Six Nations would be compensated for the loss of lands, as well as any disruptions that occurred as a result of the construction.

In 1824 farmers who also had land flooded were compensated at about $5-$6 per acre, bringing the Welland Canal lands on Six nations territory to between $12,000 and $14,000 for the 2400 acres. In 1994 Indian Affairs acknowledged that Six Nations was due compensation for that land.

Taking a simple value of $12-14,000 using the interests from the above link calculated forward, that same $12-14,000 1822 value becomes between $500 million and $1 billion that must be returned to the trust account. One 2400 acre expropriated parcel is worth as much as $1 billion to the Six Nations trust account - staggering.

Now you can do the math on the other 896,000 acres.

[Argus]

I don't think so son; I prefer to deal with white guys & gals who have power, the ones that are intelligent enough to understand the concepts of negotiation, compromise and seek consensus

Compromise is a good word. I don't see any of that in Caledonia. I don't see any consensus either. As for negotiation, it seems to be "how much of the taxpayers money will the Ontario Liberal Party give to the native thugs in order to make this go away".

No, I think the term you're trying to walk around is "abject surrender". Unsurprising, since it's not a palatable term, yet it's one you wholly advocate while not having the honesty to admit it.

You simply don`t comprehend do you? The whole incident at Douglas Creek Estates was caused and dealt with by your "real people" standards.

I have no idea what you believe my "real people" standards would be. But as an informative guide, my "real people" standards would say that anyone who breaks the law should be arrested. So when hundreds of natives showed up to reclaim the estate, armed with clubs and bats and such, hundreds more police should have showed up to arrest every single one of them.

"I'll show you, I've got standards!"

I can see where the idea anyone would have standards would amuse you almost as much as the thought they might have values and integrity. You, of course, are far above those sorts of "real people" concepts. For you, only ideological zealotry matters.

[Argus]

Another example to sink your teeth into:

Do you actually think anyone here bothers to read this stuff? You have so little credibility nothing you write can be accepted as more than blatant, dishonest propaganda.

[Sir Bandelot]

Do you actually think anyone here bothers to read this stuff? You have so little credibility nothing you write can be accepted as more than blatant, dishonest propaganda.

I read it, and I agree that natives have been systematically ripped off by the government of Canada since day one. We can argue about the magnitude of that ripoff, but the interesting question is, if we stick to our own financial rules, what if he's right, what if we legally owe that amount. Even the lower amount... what are you going to do about it. Keep ignoring the elephant in the room, and insist we should only listen to you? By ignoring it we only make the problem worse for everyone. Of course there needs to be a financial settlement, if something like equality of justice actually exists.

But it don't. And the more people know about it, the more it will come back to haunt us in insidious ways.

[Shwa]

Compromise is a good word. I don't see any of that in Caledonia. I don't see any consensus either. As for negotiation, it seems to be "how much of the taxpayers money will the Ontario Liberal Party give to the native thugs in order to make this go away".

... That behaviour is established and nobody gives a fat shit about why they think that, historically...

Consider yourself pwned.

No, I think the term you're trying to walk around is "abject surrender". Unsurprising, since it's not a palatable term, yet it's one you wholly advocate while not having the honesty to admit it.

No, I think the terms are all 'negotiation, compromise and consensus seeking.' This is the current state of the Douglas Creek Estates settlement process.

Consider yourself pwned again.

I have no idea what you believe my "real people" standards would be. But as an informative guide, my "real people" standards would say that anyone who breaks the law should be arrested. So when hundreds of natives showed up to reclaim the estate, armed with clubs and bats and such, hundreds more police should have showed up to arrest every single one of them.

A simplistic fictional narrative to support one's personal lack of power. Notwithstanding all the dusty old gramma clan mother's who have more power in their concise actions than you do in all your internet forum whimpering.

I can see where the idea anyone would have standards would amuse you almost as much as the thought they might have values and integrity. You, of course, are far above those sorts of "real people" concepts. For you, only ideological zealotry matters.

This is interesting in that you wish to subscribe me to your fixed-idea way of dealing with issues that are wholly out of your scope of abilities. It is another simplistic form of fictional narrative. However, raising the concept of my supposed "idealogical zealotry" in the same paragraph you defend your own conception of "standards" - backed by the dream police no less - is a hilarious irony.

You just pwned yourself!

[Shady]

I read it, and I agree that natives have been systematically ripped off by the government of Canada since day one.

If by the government of Canada you mean the British government before Canada even existed. They can take it up with the King of England. Leave regular Canadian taxpayers alone.

[Sir Bandelot]

If by the government of Canada you mean the British government before Canada even existed. They can take it up with the King of England. Leave regular Canadian taxpayers alone.

If I boil down what you're saying here, it means we are not the ones who stole the land, but we bought the stolen goods, and moved in.