grainfedprairieboy Posted October 14, 2010 Report Share Posted October 14, 2010 How about getting back to the topic, and the fact that the gov't says it isn't true !!! No one actually believed the Toronto Star's assertion in the first place so the topic seems to have evolved to a philosophical debate on legalising prostitution. I feel a separate thread is necessary for all the yellow journalism examples set by the Star. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted October 14, 2010 Report Share Posted October 14, 2010 What I would like to see... is for the Federal and Provincial governments to be left out in the cold when it comes to dealing with this issue. Their approach has been to violate people charter rights by passing legislation that could not withstand a constitutional test. Leave this up to local governments and municiple bodies. A few of them will try the brothel route and and they will serve as test cases that will allow us to get some real data on the results of that policy. If the results are positive other municipalities may follow suit. If they arent, then they probably wont. At least then we wont be making decisions in an evidentiary vacuum based on "conventional wisdom" and subjective morals of some. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grainfedprairieboy Posted October 14, 2010 Report Share Posted October 14, 2010 What I would like to see... is for the Federal and Provincial governments to be left out in the cold when it comes to dealing with this issue. Their approach has been to violate people charter rights by passing legislation that could not withstand a constitutional test. Leave this up to local governments and municiple bodies. A few of them will try the brothel route and and they will serve as test cases that will allow us to get some real data on the results of that policy. If the results are positive other municipalities may follow suit. If they arent, then they probably wont. At least then we wont be making decisions in an evidentiary vacuum based on "conventional wisdom" and subjective morals of some. Overall I think you make a really good case and probably this is the best "pro" argument I've seen. So allow me to ask this: In your opinion, if prostitution were to be legalised in such a community, do you think the number of sexual transactions would increase over what occurs in the same community when it is illegal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted October 14, 2010 Report Share Posted October 14, 2010 Overall I think you make a really good case and probably this is the best "pro" argument I've seen. So allow me to ask this: In your opinion, if prostitution were to be legalised in such a community, do you think the number of sexual transactions would increase over what occurs in the same community when it is illegal? I dont know. Conventional wisdom certainly says that. The problem is conventional wisdom also would have told you that when Portugal decriminalized hard drugs, that drug use would skyrocket. But the reality is it went DOWN and it was the number of people seaking treatment that went way up. But my guess is there wouldnt be a huge change. Theres already a supply side for the current demand... and theres already escort agencies for men that dont want to use streetwalkers. My guess is that the people who want this service are already getting it. But... Like I said... were operating in an evidentiary vacuum here. Unless we have some good test cases (as I mentioned above) from which we can gather real data with which to formulate policy all we can do is take subjective guesses. One thing I WILL admit... I did some reading about the Netherlands... and the number of transactions there has definately increased I think. The government essentially saw prostitution as a small cottage industry made up of female entrepreneurs when they legalized it. But it turned into a sex tourism destination, and the government there is now having to deal with a fairly large industry thats still linked to organized crime etc. So that policy certainly is not without problems either... However... since legalization there HIV and STD's among sex workers has gone down... they are generally safer and healthier. And the places where they work are no longer filthy slums but places I found vibrant and interesting even though I wasnt there to buy sex. So... youre going to have some problems either way. Like I said... we need to try some different policies and gather real data to evaluate. With the Feds running the show we cant do that... but if we let municipalities try different policies then we can collect some data without having to experiment on the entire country at once. I would do the exact same thing with some recreational drugs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scribblet Posted October 14, 2010 Report Share Posted October 14, 2010 Because of this blatant lack of journalistic standards on the part of the Toronto Star Minister Finley's office will be registering a formal complaint with the Ontario Press Council, the Parliamentary Press Gallery and the Public Editor of the Toronto Star. About time I say !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grainfedprairieboy Posted October 14, 2010 Report Share Posted October 14, 2010 Well Dre, if it were not for the human factor you may be able to convince me. Right now, though my brain agrees with your position while my heart opposes it. I cannot in good conscience offer formal or tacit approval for something that is so demeaning to women aimed at those who are already vulnerable or in a position in their lives where prostitution may be an answer. Perhaps it is the chauvinist or humanist in me but I cannot separate the business end from the human factor in this topic so I reckon we'll have agree to disagree. Good points though overall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keepitsimple Posted October 14, 2010 Report Share Posted October 14, 2010 How about getting back to the topic, and the fact that the gov't says it isn't true !!! I was out for the afternoon and when I got back, I was going to post something that said to take it with a grain of salt - because it came from the Toronto Star. Lately, they have been over the top in their criticism of everything Conservative - pounding away at Rob Ford, worshipping Dalton McGuinty and Mr. Ignatieff - and criticizing Harper for anything and everything.....and I've mentioned before that they don't just report the news - they editorialize it. The story was on the front page - written by an opinionated writer (as approved by the editor) as opposed to just giving us the story - which apparently is false. I'll be curious to see where this goes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grainfedprairieboy Posted October 14, 2010 Report Share Posted October 14, 2010 Because of this blatant lack of journalistic standards on the part of the Toronto Star Minister Finley's office will be registering a formal complaint with the Ontario Press Council, the Parliamentary Press Gallery and the Public Editor of the Toronto Star. About time I say !! Good luck I say. The Toronto Star believes itself to be one of the official opposition parties. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scribblet Posted October 14, 2010 Report Share Posted October 14, 2010 Good luck I say. The Toronto Star believes itself to be one of the official opposition parties. And then some LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted October 14, 2010 Report Share Posted October 14, 2010 Well Dre, if it were not for the human factor you may be able to convince me. Right now, though my brain agrees with your position while my heart opposes it. I cannot in good conscience offer formal or tacit approval for something that is so demeaning to women aimed at those who are already vulnerable or in a position in their lives where prostitution may be an answer. Perhaps it is the chauvinist or humanist in me but I cannot separate the business end from the human factor in this topic so I reckon we'll have agree to disagree. Good points though overall. I totally understand. If I could make the sex trade disappear by snapping my fingers I would. I just think theres enough problems with our current approach that we should have an open mind to looking at other options. Good points though overall. Thanx I guess even a blind squirrel finds a nut sometimes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted October 14, 2010 Report Share Posted October 14, 2010 If your daughter is 18 and beyond and you still have no discernible influence in her life then she is probably giving it up for the boys (and girls) pretty routinely already in a misguided quest for male attention. That is the psychological characteristic of any promiscuous female and no amount of politically correct drum thumping or feminist whitewashing will change it. This is why your hot to trot wife or girlfriend, the gal who put out any where, any time gets married and now is so frigid a little light comes on when she does open her thighs. Until of course - you neglect her enough because you can't get anything anywho and she needs "daddy" again and up goes her profile on Ashley Madison. And your knocked up teenage or unwed daughter? Just shrug your shoulders and proclaim there is nothing you could have done to prevent it because kids screw each other. Of course, deep down you know if you spent half the time with her that you do on the internet you wouldn't be a grandpa and your second or third wife wouldn't be a Nana or whatever it is you "blended" family types would call her. How noble of you. So let's change hooker career day from high school to community college and you're suddenly all in favour? You would have to climb to the top of a mountain to get the kind of sage advice I offer. Start taking notes and I'll make you a better person. I can't believe she told you that. Maybe I was wrong about your relationship with her. I've got some sage advice for you... Take your Alberta sentiment,STFU,and,go pump the oil... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted October 14, 2010 Report Share Posted October 14, 2010 no, the final remark was decidedly pointed, directly and unequivocally. Is lying another "conservative value"? Nope...Just a Prairie LibertariCon one... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grainfedprairieboy Posted October 14, 2010 Report Share Posted October 14, 2010 I've got some sage advice for you... Take your Alberta sentiment,STFU,and,go pump the oil... Scott Reid......is that really you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToadBrother Posted October 15, 2010 Report Share Posted October 15, 2010 I totally understand. If I could make the sex trade disappear by snapping my fingers I would. I just think theres enough problems with our current approach that we should have an open mind to looking at other options. If regimes like Saudi Arabia and Iran can't make prostitution disappear, a proper liberal democracy doesn't have a hope in hell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grainfedprairieboy Posted October 15, 2010 Report Share Posted October 15, 2010 (edited) If regimes like Saudi Arabia and Iran can't make prostitution disappear, a proper liberal democracy doesn't have a hope in hell. Never heard of an Iranian or Saudi red light district or underground prostitution network, especially from a country that will hang a woman from a street light or shower her with rocks for doing the "wrong" thing with her cookie. Is this conjecture on your part or do you have something to back it up? Edited October 15, 2010 by grainfedprairieboy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToadBrother Posted October 15, 2010 Report Share Posted October 15, 2010 (edited) Never heard of an Iranian or Saudi red light district or underground prostitution network, especially from a country that will hang a woman from a street light or shower her with rocks for doing the "wrong" thing with her cookie. Is this conjecture on your part or do you have something to back it up? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Iran Are you actually under the illusion that prostitution can successfully be prevented? Make something dangerous and all you do is up the price. It's pretty basic economics. Edited October 15, 2010 by ToadBrother Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grainfedprairieboy Posted October 15, 2010 Report Share Posted October 15, 2010 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Iran Are you actually under the illusion that prostitution can successfully be prevented? Make something dangerous and all you do is up the price. It's pretty basic economics. I'm sorry, I don't actually accept Wiki in any debate as for all I know you wrote it yourself 10 minutes ago. Not to be difficult but any credible evidence from any Middle East studies program from any university is more then acceptable and I won't dispute that I promise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToadBrother Posted October 15, 2010 Report Share Posted October 15, 2010 I'm sorry, I don't actually accept Wiki in any debate as for all I know you wrote it yourself 10 minutes ago. Not to be difficult but any credible evidence from any Middle East studies program from any university is more then acceptable and I won't dispute that I promise. There are references at the bottom of the article. Do you have a problem with the US State Department as well? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grainfedprairieboy Posted October 15, 2010 Report Share Posted October 15, 2010 (edited) There are references at the bottom of the article. Do you have a problem with the US State Department as well? Then use Wiki as your personal link to support your own research (again you could've wrote it yourself or someone like you may have). But make public the actual US State Department document that supports your claim and I will concede it. Pretty simple really. Edited October 15, 2010 by grainfedprairieboy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RNG Posted October 15, 2010 Report Share Posted October 15, 2010 Then use Wiki as your personal link to support your own research (again you could've wrote it yourself or someone like you may have). But make public the actual US State Department document that supports your claim and I will concede it. Pretty simple really. Wiki is great. I just made a donation to them. I bet you only don't like them when an entry contradicts your prejudices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted October 15, 2010 Report Share Posted October 15, 2010 Scott Reid......is that really you? Nope... Just the proud Eastern Bastard of your oil soaked nightmares... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shwa Posted October 15, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 15, 2010 I've got some sage advice for you... Take your Alberta sentiment,STFU,and,go pump the oil... I was actually waiting for this!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grainfedprairieboy Posted October 15, 2010 Report Share Posted October 15, 2010 Wiki is great. I just made a donation to them. I bet you only don't like them when an entry contradicts your prejudices. Nah, as a general rule I stay away from it. Earlier in my online posting days I often cited wiki as a source but superior arguments by others forced me to concede it is not a comprehensive nor legitimate resource and more suited for those too uninspired to do any actual research. You however, probably regard it as virtual Gospel and peer reviewed periodicals somewhat old fashioned stuffy and outdated so in a beautiful act of selfless penance I present to you: Better Then A Financial Contribution Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grainfedprairieboy Posted October 15, 2010 Report Share Posted October 15, 2010 Nope... Just the proud Eastern Bastard of your oil soaked nightmares... I assume all easterners are a prideful bunch as evidenced by the plethora of rainbow flags exceeding Ontario ones throughout Toronto. I also oppose the production and national consumption of oil, unless it of course is used in the production of food or is a featured ingredient for a Mazolla party yee haw! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CANADIEN Posted October 15, 2010 Report Share Posted October 15, 2010 what fucking planet are you from? I have been wondering that for ages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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