Ministers eye alternative sentences for FASD offenders

[eyeball]

VANCOUVER — Too many people who were brain damaged in the womb when their mothers drank alcohol are ending up in the justice system, and lawyers and judges say it's time to reconstruct the system...

...the problem is too important just to place it on the "too-hard pile," and ignore the fact so many people with the disorder are sitting in Canada's prisons.

http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/Canada/20101011/fetal-alcohol-offenders-101110/

This seems especially true at a time when our population is being encouraged to adopt a harsher more fearful attitude towards criminals.

The series of dots that connect the womb to the prison cell are a political and ideological minefield. By rights this issue should be shaking a number of deeply and profoundly conflicted systems and policies to their very core. I fear the intensely moral and ethical nuances to this issue will just prove too much of a challenge for our politicians and they will indeed place this on the "too-hard pile".

But let's assume the issue does galvanize politicians and the pubic alike. I wonder who might be the first to suggest that fetal rights might be a solution to the problem of FASD? I think the politicians who are pinning their electoral hopes on promising to alleviate our fears by cracking down on crime should, by rights.

[Shwa]

This seems especially true at a time when our population is being encouraged to adopt a harsher more fearful attitude towards criminals.

The series of dots that connect the womb to the prison cell are a political and ideological minefield. By rights this issue should be shaking a number of deeply and profoundly conflicted systems and policies to their very core. I fear the intensely moral and ethical nuances to this issue will just prove too much of a challenge for our politicians and they will indeed place this on the "too-hard pile".

But let's assume the issue does galvanize politicians and the pubic alike. I wonder who might be the first to suggest that fetal rights might be a solution to the problem of FASD? I think the politicians who are pinning their electoral hopes on promising to alleviate our fears by cracking down on crime should, by rights.

Very interesting, eyeball, bring up Fetal Alcohol Syndrome and Fetal Alscohol Spectrum Disorder as a point against building super-prisons at the expense of preventative measures. Especially one that is proving to have a profound impact on the justice system.

Fetal alcohol exposure is the leading known cause of intellectual disability in the Western world. In the United States and Europe the FAS prevalence rate is estimated to be nearly one in every 100 live births.] The lifetime medical and social costs of each child with FAS are estimated to be as high as US$800,000.

I know someone who is a leading Canadian expert in the field and FAS/FASD is mentioned often in policy circles, but doesn't seem to have the same traction with legislators. I wonder why?

[Bonam]

If someone commits crimes and is a danger to society, they need to be removed from society (to a prison or, if appropriate, a mental facility). It doesn't really matter whether the reason for their bad behavior is cold-hearted malevolence, being hit by daddy as a child, or having a drunk mom as a fetus. What matters is protecting the non-criminal public from individuals who have and are likely to again commit criminal acts.

That being said, we should of course make sure to offer information and education to mothers and potential mothers about the impacts of alcohol consumption while pregnant, and to discourage it as much as possible. Additionally, to whatever extent is possible, parents need to be held responsible for their actions and choices during pregnancy, particularly if, as suggested above, these actions incur costs of $800,000 dollars to society.

[wyly]

it's not their fault they have this problem but still the public needs to be protected they can not be cured...prison may not be the correct place for them but walking amongst us isn't the correct place either....

[wyly]

I know someone who is a leading Canadian expert in the field and FAS/FASD is mentioned often in policy circles, but doesn't seem to have the same traction with legislators. I wonder why?

I do as well, and my friend a psycologist has worked with some of the worst cases and says many should never walk the streets ever again...

[Shwa]

I do as well, and my friend a psycologist has worked with some of the worst cases and says many should never walk the streets ever again...

I agree that some of the worse cases shouldn't be walking our streets without controls - as I would agree with some of the worse case schizophrenics and other forms of severe dementia.

But with FASD there is much more to it than simply making more prisons when preventative measures, treatment and treatment research, community awareness and support structures could be used to combat and greatly reduce the instance or impact of FASD within the population.

[wyly]

I agree that some of the worse cases shouldn't be walking our streets without controls - as I would agree with some of the worse case schizophrenics and other forms of severe dementia.

But with FASD there is much more to it than simply making more prisons when preventative measures, treatment and treatment research, community awareness and support structures could be used to combat and greatly reduce the instance or impact of FASD within the population.

but there is no treatment and there never will be...any convicted sexual or violent criminal with FASD should be seriously considered for permanent detention...

[eyeball]

A number of people in my region are proposing dry communities for those that elect to go that route. They'd like to run alcohol out of town along with all the other drugs.

We had another like-minded bunch who successfully pressured local council to run a proposed mental health facility out of town. The NIMBY's who put together the petition to stop this did so by frightening people with predictions of needles in the streets and weirdos in the bushes and yet when council voted against the proposal the concern was that low income people would lose their homes if they temporarily had to move into an assisted living facility.

I guess they must believe that only low income people suffer from mental health or addiction.

I think a good direction to begin addressing the issue of FASD from is to use a legislative approach flowing from the recommendations suggested in the document Out Of The Shadows At Last Transforming Mental Health, Mental Illness and Addiction Services in Canada. Source

They should especially focus on the recommendations to combat the widespread public ignorance, stigma and discrimination that surrounds just about everything that involves the disease of people's minds and brains.

[eyeball]

but there is no treatment and there never will be...any convicted sexual or violent criminal with FASD should be seriously considered for permanent detention...

Where though? As the article I linked to in the OP indicated there is proof that those who live in supportive environments thrive. This means foster care for kids with FASD and some sort of assisted living when they become adults. Prisons and even mental institutions just cannot accomplish this but there's nowhere else to put them.

There are 4000 new cases of FASD in Canada every year, some 50 - 60% of these will likely run afoul of the law. Just how many prisons can we afford to build?

[Shwa]

Where though? As the article I linked to in the OP indicated there is proof that those who live in supportive environments thrive. This means foster care for kids with FASD and some sort of assisted living when they become adults. Prisons and even mental institutions just cannot accomplish this but there's nowhere else to put them.

There are 4000 new cases of FASD in Canada every year, some 50 - 60% of these will likely run afoul of the law. Just how many prisons can we afford to build?

I am sure if there were some coordinated campaign - like the anti-smoking campaign - educating the public about the evils of alcohol and pregnancy, then there would be traction enough to enact all the support programs that are being suggested and drive further research.

I don't advocate that some of the more brutal offenders get off, programs can be offered in prisons and other institutions as well, but a highly publicized awareness campaign would go a long way of keeping FASD inflicted people out of prisons and eventually reduce the occurance of FASD in the population.

[wyly]

I am sure if there were some coordinated campaign - like the anti-smoking campaign - educating the public about the evils of alcohol and pregnancy, then there would be traction enough to enact all the support programs that are being suggested and drive further research.

I don't advocate that some of the more brutal offenders get off, programs can be offered in prisons and other institutions as well, but a highly publicized awareness campaign would go a long way of keeping FASD inflicted people out of prisons and eventually reduce the occurance of FASD in the population.

FASD isn't new, the link between alcohol and pregnancy and FASD has been known for decades, every expectant mother is warned of the risks but yet they continue...FASD isn't curable the dangerous offenders need to be removed permanently from society as soon as they are identified, you want to put them in cozy hospital surroundings that's fine, as long as there is barbed wire and guard dogs patrolling the perimeter...these people are worse than gang members, they will kill and rape without any remorse...

[Shwa]

FASD isn't new, the link between alcohol and pregnancy and FASD has been known for decades, every expectant mother is warned of the risks but yet they continue...FASD isn't curable the dangerous offenders need to be removed permanently from society as soon as they are identified, you want to put them in cozy hospital surroundings that's fine, as long as there is barbed wire and guard dogs patrolling the perimeter...these people are worse than gang members, they will kill and rape without any remorse...

And while we do that, we launch a massive public awareness campaign. Which, since we have know about FASD "for decades" isn't odd that we haven't had such an awareness campaign already? Why is that do you think?

[grainfedprairieboy]

I find this one of those interesting debates. On the one hand, you can abort a fetus any time pretty much up to the point of conception through just about any method and that is OK. We made it legal by not making it illegal. Only us and North Korea so far.

You can also drink & drive into the side of a car carrying a pregnant woman who really wants her baby but you can't be charged with manslaughter if it dies because it might negatively effect the abortion law......or lack of one at any stretch.

So my point is, in complete seriousness, I don't see how you can stop women from doing anything that will harm her child that wouldn't ultimately threaten Canada's lack of an abortion law and force us to deal with that first.

[Shwa]

I find this one of those interesting debates. On the one hand, you can abort a fetus any time pretty much up to the point of conception through just about any method and that is OK. We made it legal by not making it illegal. Only us and North Korea so far.

You can also drink & drive into the side of a car carrying a pregnant woman who really wants her baby but you can't be charged with manslaughter if it dies because it might negatively effect the abortion law......or lack of one at any stretch.

So my point is, in complete seriousness, I don't see how you can stop women from doing anything that will harm her child that wouldn't ultimately threaten Canada's lack of an abortion law and force us to deal with that first.

The key is to get the women to make an informed decision themselves. Like abortion.