Tareq Fatah

[Hazeleyes]

Well, I'm afraid you can't blame we Canadians for laws that were written in the past. If the charge doesn't fit, then it can't be.

I think politicians have dropped the laws against treason many years ago for fear that they might find themselves in the dock. Consider some of the ashhat decisions polliticians have made that have resulted in people dying. Mercury poisoning and the death of indian people in ontario back in the 70's come to mind. The tar sands and the pollution of the athabaska river is another example. I am not suggesting that the polluters committ treason but the toady politicians that defend them is another, especially when they use their position of trust and authority to deny what is happening.

[Wilber]

Interestingly, the above media entry was amended after I first read it. The initial entry had Ignatieff saying that "several of them were acquitted". As I read the original quote, I was thinking an acquittal does not mean you are innocent of the charge. In some cases, it's that there was not enough proof to bring about a conviction or a deal was made in exchange for information helpful in the prosecution of criminals higher in the food chain. "Not being convicted" does sound softer and more conclusive than "being acquitted", doesn't it?

I've always liked the Scottish legal system's third option when it comes to a verdict. "Not Proven". The result may be the same as "Not Guilty" but certainly a more honest verdict in many cases.

[betsy]

What about Sedition?

Some Imams inciting violence/terrorism by radicalization! We're not talking about isolated incidents nor plain ordinary loonies that take matters into their own hands.

This worldwide terrorism is an orchestrated guerilla-type warfare strategy being waged - whether misguidedly or not - in the name of Islam. This is a religious war.

Strong crackdown is definitely needed! Strong reaction not only from the federal government. Strong support to stand behind the federal government should be demanded from the Oppositions, and that these parties ought to put their duty to the people ahead of their own politicking and political agendas!

The general Muslim community have a legitimate reason to be concerend about. Dis-trust and deep suspicions, paranoia, frutrations and anger.....can easily be fanned by those with equal agendas (such as supremacists).

If things keep going the way they are and if there ever comes a time when a terrorist act happens on our soil that results in death/casualties.....does it require any stretch of the imagination how the climate will be like then for the Muslim community?

These outspoken Muslim asking for action from notable people have said, what I think a lot of people must be thinking now: this is not the time for political correctness!

When push comes to shove.....does freedom of religion trumps over the security of the nation?

Edited September 5, 2010 by betsy

[bloodyminded]

What about Sedition?

Some Imams inciting violence/terrorism by radicalization! We're not talking about isolated incidents nor plain ordinary loonies that take matters into their own hands.

This worldwide terrorism is an orchestrated guerilla-type warfare strategy being waged - whether misguidedly or not - in the name of Islam. This is a religious war.

Strong crackdown is definitely needed! Strong reaction not only from the federal government. Strong support to stand behind the federal government should be demanded from the Oppositions, and that these parties ought to put their duty to the people ahead of their own politicking and political agendas!

The general Muslim community have a legitimate reason to be concerend about. Dis-trust and deep suspicions, paranoia, frutrations and anger.....can easily be fanned by those with equal agendas (such as supremacists).

If things keep going the way they are and if there ever comes a time when a terrorist act happens on our soil that results in death/casualties.....does it require any stretch of the imagination how the climate will be like then for the Muslim community?

These outspoken Muslim asking for action from notable people have said, what I think a lot of people must be thinking now: this is not the time for political correctness!

When push comes to shove.....does freedom of religion trumps over the security of the nation?

This is all fair enough, but I believe the problem(s) to be far more complicated.

Does the fact that some "outspoken Muslims" share a roughly similar narrative as some of us mean that they are correct? What about the outspoken Muslims who agree on the fundamental philosophies (ie terrorism is bad, human rights matter, Islam has serious problems, etc), but disagree with other parts of the narrative? Like those who are aligned with secular liberal thought, but who feel the anti-terrorism policies of countries like Canada and the US hover somewhere between misdirected ignorance and imperial overreach...that they aren't, fundamentally, anti-terrorism policies at all?

I'm not saying you should agree with them...I'm saying that summoning "outspoken Muslims" as some evidence that we're "fighting the good fight" must be countered by other, philosophically-similar Muslims who think it's a crock. Their opinions deserve to be heard...espoecially in cases like Afghan Member of Parliament Joya, who lives under death threats from our allies in the supposed "war on terror."

Edited September 5, 2010 by bloodyminded

[betsy]

This is all fair enough, but I believe the problem(s) to be far more complicated.

Does the fact that some "outspoken Muslims" share a roughly similar narrative as some of us mean that they are correct? What about the outspoken Muslims who agree on the fundamental philosophies (ie terrorism is bad, human rights matter, Islam has serious problems, etc), but disagree with other parts of the narrative? Like those who are aligned with secular liberal thought, but who feel the anti-terrorism policies of countries like Canada and the US hover somewhere between misdirected ignorance and imperial overreach...that they aren't, fundamentally, anti-terrorism policies at all?

I'm not saying you should agree with them...I'm saying that summoning "outspoken Muslims" as some evidence that we're "fighting the good fight" must be countered by other, philosophically-similar Muslims who think it's a crock. Their opinions deserve to be heard...espoecially in cases like Afghan Member of Parliament Joya, who lives under death threats from our allies in the supposed "war on terror."

I've heard quite a few Muslims on talk shows who denounce terrorism and yet on the same breath give reasons to JUSTIFY those acts by pointing accusing fingers in every direction as the cause for all these. This pseudo-denouncement of terrorism, mind you, is not confined only to certain Muslims....it is the "climate" of the western landscape now...a certain mindframe (if that's the correct word for it)...the "enlightened" way of thinking.

Some immigrants from other so-called "backward" third world countries provide such refreshing direct, no-nonsense, no beating around the bush statement - calling a spade a spade! Common sense stands out in their reasoning.

That's why perhaps when these frank no-nonsense Muslims speak their mind, they really stand out....whereas those Muslims who skate around political correctness when they talk are tuned out!

You hear one dripping in political correctnes (no matter what the issue is all about - from child rearing to crimes), they all just sound the same!

The lady who went head-to-head with that other Muslim guy who was a spokesman for Muslim-Canadian relations something....she pointed out key facts and challenged him! He just kept repeating what tantamounts to talking points!

[bloodyminded]

I've heard quite a few Muslims on talk shows who denounce terrorism and yet on the same breath give reasons to JUSTIFY those acts by pointing accusing fingers in every direction as the cause for all these.

That's plainly not who I"m talking about. Malalai Joya, in particular, is vocally opposed to terrorism.

She also doesn't agree with Western policy in Afghanistan...which is why she's being ignored.

This pseudo-denouncement of terrorism, mind you, is not confined only to certain Muslims....it is the "climate" of the western landscape now...a certain mindframe (if that's the correct word for it)...the "enlightened" way of thinking.

No, it's always been around. People have always been reluctant to harshly condemn Western-backed terrorism. And they remain reluctant to condemn it.

Some immigrants from other so-called "backward" third world countries provide such refreshing direct, no-nonsense, no beating around the bush statement - calling a spade a spade! Common sense stands out in their reasoning.

Yes, like Malalai Joya, or the late Edward Said, and scores of others. Little attention is paid to them, because they also happen to be highly critical of the West.

Ignoring these voices--while we listen raptly only to those who defend foreign policy--is itself a type of political correctness.

That's why perhaps when these frank no-nonsense Muslims speak their mind, they really stand out....whereas those Muslims who skate around political correctness when they talk are tuned out!

Again, what's "politically correct" about Joya, in the context you mean? That she doesn't appreciate getting death threats from our allies?

That's not political correctness.

that she has spent her adult life fighting for women's equality in Afghanistan? Do you honestly think that's "political correctness?

Or is it just criticism of Canadian, American, NATO policy...that it becomes "political correctness"?

Edited September 5, 2010 by bloodyminded

[betsy]

There are many others speaking out, but we don't hear about them. Some are far more courageous than those you mention...and the reason we don't hear about them is that they propose the "wrong" narrative.

Actually if there was ever a shortage of Muslim speakers that spout the so-called "wrong narrative," it's more probably because there are TONS of NON-Muslim speakers already filling up the airwaves....doing the talking for them!

Besides, during the Israel-Lebanon war as an example.....I've seen a lot of anti-Israel Muslims come out to give their two-cents. The Islamic cartoons....how many coverage did we get on tv? I've heard tons of debates from both side....and actually there were more from the politically correct side.

Everytime there was a major happening that involved the hot points (be it Israel, burquas etc..,), there was never - NEVER - a shortage of supporting Muslims giving out interviews after interviews!

Malalai Joya, Afghanistan's youngest MP and a liberal feminist by philosophical inclination, has been speaking otu against the Taliban and the Warlords for years. She lives under constant death threats.

Most of them from our Afghan allies.

She speaks out against Islamic radicals (unlike us, who are allied with them); she speaks on behalf of women's rights, children's rights, and the oppression of minorities and of the poor.

It is perhaps because she speaks out for too many causes - from the poor, to women's rights to oppression, - and there's nothing wrong about speaking for those......but the impact is not the same as when someone like Tareq Fatah is talking about one particular issue! Joya's message is perhaps dilluted and doesn't come out too strongly because of the many causes she is bringing up. Being an MP to boot....it's probably coming across as politicking. I have never heard of her.

But since she doesn't hold to the amusing narrative--that the West is battling terrorism and medieval Islamists, but actually supports it--everyone closes their ears and says "no one" (except for those Muslims who believe there is an American-led campaign to rid the world of barbarism) is saying exactly what people like her are saying.

Sitting as a FEMALE MP of Afghanistan (with the distinction of being the youngest at that), I wonder if she has to choose Afghanistan being under the Taliban....or being under a corrupt current fledgeling givernment being tutored painstakingly by the West, which I wonder would she rather have?

Taliban or the current corrupt government?

You see, I find a problem with this. Here is a sitting female MP in a country that's supposed to be all that she's talking about...and yet she's sitting as an MP. What does she think....that change can happen overnight? What is she proposing exactly....that America should get out of there and leave them alone?

How can I listen and take her seriously...she could just be another politician trying to make a name for herself. POLITICKING. America is a far more convenient beast to beat up. You can say anything about America. You can curse America. You can spit on America. Your head doesn't get lopped off. And you still get to keep the aid money.

As for Imams...on another post, Dre linked us to several prominenet Imamas speaking out unequivocally against hate and jihadist violence. Just because CTV et al aren't intersted, doesn't mean they don't exist.

I doubt CTV and other news media are not interested to hear both sides. Are you kidding? This is hot news that translates to ratings!

You think any Imam who want to speak strongly in PUBLIC about an issue - I stress the word STRONGLY - they wouldn't get to be heard on mainstream news??? I find that too hard to believe.

Edited September 5, 2010 by betsy

[bloodyminded]

Actually if there was ever a shortage of Muslim speakers that spout the so-called "wrong narrative," it's more probably because there are TONS of NON-Muslim speakers already filling up the airwaves....doing the talking for them!

Besides, during the Israel-Lebanon war as an example.....I've seen a lot of anti-Israel Muslims come out to give their two-cents. The Islamic cartoons....how many coverage did we get on tv? I've heard tons of debates from both side....and actually there were more from the politically correct side.

Again, I"m not talking about your obssessive use of the term "politically correct." It is entirely distinct from what I"m talking about.

To you, "politically correct" means criticism of our foreign policy. This doesn't even make sense.

Everytime there was a major happening that involved the hot points (be it Israel, burquas etc..,), there was never - NEVER - a shortage of supporting Muslims giving out interviews after interviews!

I'm talking specifically about Muslims who support a more secular and liberal philosophy, closley aligned with Western rhetoric.

But not necessarily with Western actions.

It is perhaps because she speaks out for too many causes - from the poor, to women's rights to oppression, - and there's nothing wrong about speaking for those......but the impact is not the same as when someone like Tareq Fatah is talking about one particular issue! Joya's message is perhaps dilluted and doesn't come out too strongly because of the many causes she is bringing up. Being an MP to boot....it's probably coming across as politicking.

It's not "politicking," because she is in hiding, unable to fulfill her Parliamentary duties...because she criticized the Northern Alliance, fundamentalist, misogynist MP's who are our allies.

She should be the type of person who is an ally. Not the people who are the same as the Taliban.

I have never heard of her.

Exactly my point.

Sitting as a FEMALE MP of Afghanistan (with the distinction of being the youngest at that), I wonder if she has to choose Afghanistan being under the Taliban....or being under a corrupt current fledgeling givernment being tutored painstakingly by the West, which I wonder would she rather have?

Taliban or the current corrupt government?

You make false distinctions.

first of all, she has always courageouysly been opposed to the Taliban. She was under death threats from them while the Taliban was friendly to Western powers. (Did you even know that used to be the case?)

The "Northern Alliance," the Warlords, are not different from the Taliban. They have similar beliefs.

And you ask which she'd rather have?

Betsy...again, because I think you missed it--she is living in hiding, under death threats from current members of the government who are being "tutored painstakingly" by the West.

You suppose she should be supporting the people trying to kill her--and the people (us) who don't care that they're trying to kill her?

You ask a lot, don't you?

You see, I find a problem with this. How can I listen and take her seriously...she could just be another politician trying to make a name for herself. POLITICKING.

How is she "politicking"? Do our leaders not make noises about women's equality and the oppression of Islamic fundamentalists? They aren't even risking their lives to say it, like she is.

And yet you don't consider Harper, Obama, and European leaders to be "politicking." Hell, no: they're nobly battling terrorism. No "politicking" involved.

But Joya is just "politicking."

Under death threats. After years of risking her life on principle, including well before she entered the political realm.

What about our Afghan allies, the fundamentalist women-haters and theocrats? They're all honest, too. Sincere? No politicking?

America is a far more convenient beast to beat up. You can say anything about America. You can curse America. You can spit on America. Your head doesn't get lopped off. And you still get to keep the aid money.

I'll say this one more time:

She is in danger of getting her head lopped off. By members of the current government. Our allies.

I doubt CTV and other news media are not interested to hear both sides. Are you kidding? This is hot news that translates to ratings!

You think any Imam who want to speak strongly in PUBLIC about an issue - I stress the word STRONGLY - they wouldn't get to be heard on mainstream news??? I find that too hard to believe.

And yet you haven't heard of Joya, a fiery, controversial speaker with modern secular values, the most philosophically-similar (to us) MP in Afghanistan, a person who has battled both Taliban and Northern Alliance tyranny for many years...

....precisely because she isn't heard on the mainstream news.

Edited September 5, 2010 by bloodyminded

[betsy]

Bloodyminded,

So she's in hiding. If that's the real case, I genuinely feel sorry for her.

As for my rant about political correctness, it is about the siuation that we find ourselves in Canada.

Our home-grown terrorists. People like Tareq Fatah, who not only have concern over their own plight as a visible minority (getting lumped together with the jihadists)...but also their concern for their youth who are being radicalized. They speak not only as a community....but also as parents!

Before we can truly help other places.....we have to do something first with this growing concern in our own turf.

[Keepitsimple]

I agree with Betsy and Tarek.....the issue of jihadism in Canada can best be resolved by the Imams. Every one of them should be having periodic sermons that reinforce the fact that Jihad - as exemplified by Al Quaeda and terrorism in general - goes against the Koran's teachings. There really aren't twenty virgins waiting for you. It's really no different than an organization using the Bible to justify mass slaughter - or the Torah for that matter. Every Priest and Rabii would be called upon to denounce and condemn such atrocities. That's the problem with Islam - there is no central authority to provide overall guidance and it's even difficult to determine what qualifications one must have to become an Imam.

[Muddy]

I agree with Betsy and Tarek.....the issue of jihadism in Canada can best be resolved by the Imams. Every one of them should be having periodic sermons that reinforce the fact that Jihad - as exemplified by Al Quaeda and terrorism in general - goes against the Koran's teachings. There really aren't twenty virgins waiting for you. It's really no different than an organization using the Bible to justify mass slaughter - or the Torah for that matter. Every Priest and Rabii would be called upon to denounce and condemn such atrocities. That's the problem with Islam - there is no central authority to provide overall guidance and it's even difficult to determine what qualifications one must have to become an Imam.

Well said my friend. If only!

[Argus]

What about our Afghan allies, the fundamentalist women-haters and theocrats?

Fundamentalist women-haters?

Sounds like an excellent source of fresh immigrants!

They can join the rest we're bringing in by the boat-load every other day.

[Argus]

I agree with Betsy and Tarek.....the issue of jihadism in Canada can best be resolved by the Imams. Every one of them should be having periodic sermons that reinforce the fact that Jihad - as exemplified by Al Quaeda and terrorism in general - goes against the Koran's teachings.

Except that, as far as I know, there has never been a Canadian born Imam. All of them are foreigners, and as such the product of foreign (third world) cultures. Even the best of those cultures are, to put it politely, socially backward. So getting them to denounce the backward attitudes of others is going to be something of a task.

Edited September 8, 2010 by Argus

[Keepitsimple]

Except that, as far as I know, there has never been a Canadian born Imam. All of them are foreigners, and as such the product of foreign (third world) cultures. Even the best of those cultures are, to put it politely, socially backward. So getting them to denounce the backward attitudes of others is going to be something of a task.

Good point....as obvious as it seems now, I didn't think of that.