Woman Denied Gov't Job Because of Race

[Bonam]

Right...

Because if anyone is'nt an avowed conservative libertarian they must be a card carrying Marxist bedwetter....

I mentioned neither libertarians nor Marxists, not sure what you are talking about. And we do have members of the rabble crowd here, as in those who post on rabble. For example our esteemed colleague charter.rights:

http://rabble.ca/babble/aboriginal-issues-and-culture/silver-covenant-chain-treaty-1710-alive

[charter.rights]

I mentioned neither libertarians nor Marxists, not sure what you are talking about. And we do have members of the rabble crowd here, as in those who post on rabble. For example our esteemed colleague charter.rights:

http://rabble.ca/babble/aboriginal-issues-and-culture/silver-covenant-chain-treaty-1710-alive

I post all over the internet sunshine. Mostly to counter the misinformation guys like you spread thick.

[Bonam]

I post all over the internet sunshine. Mostly to counter the misinformation guys like you spread thick.

Speaking of your posting all over the internet... mind changing your signature so it's not all big and red? Makes this forum not work safe lol. I don't want to have to turn off everyone's signatures, nor do I particularly want to place you on ignore (I don't have anyone on ignore), but it's a pain having that signature pop up on the screen all the time.

[charter.rights]

Speaking of your posting all over the internet... mind changing your signature so it's not all big and red? Makes this forum not work safe lol. I don't want to have to turn off everyone's signatures, nor do I particularly want to place you on ignore (I don't have anyone on ignore), but it's a pain having that signature pop up on the screen all the time.

Nope. I like it just the way it is.

[Jack Weber]

I mentioned neither libertarians nor Marxists, not sure what you are talking about. And we do have members of the rabble crowd here, as in those who post on rabble. For example our esteemed colleague charter.rights:

http://rabble.ca/babble/aboriginal-issues-and-culture/silver-covenant-chain-treaty-1710-alive

Other than Charter.Rights,please describe the "rabble crowd"...

Edited July 24, 2010 by Jack Weber

[Bonam]

Nope. I like it just the way it is.

So you like being in people's faces with your spam. Ok, understood.

[charter.rights]

So you like being in people's faces with your spam. Ok, understood.

I like the right to exercise free speech. Don't you?

[Bonam]

I like the right to exercise free speech. Don't you?

Sure. One can still be respectful to others while speaking freely. Having a giant red signature, especially one that contains nonsense, is not "free speech", it is spam.

Anyway, it was a simple request, not an intrusion on your "right".

Edited July 24, 2010 by Bonam

[charter.rights]

Sure. One can still be respectful to others while speaking freely. Having a giant red signature, especially one that contains nonsense, is not "free speech", it is spam.

Anyway, it was a simple request, not an intrusion on your "right".

Simple request denied. I might change it when there is another point to be made.

[Bonam]

Simple request denied. I might change it when there is another point to be made.

You call that a "point"?

Hope the rest of you see what I mean by quality of debate going down the tubes when certain members start in on the threads...

[charter.rights]

You call that a "point"?

Hope the rest of you see what I mean by quality of debate going down the tubes when certain members start in on the threads...

I do. We have been off topic since you started posting this evening. Why not log off now so we can go back to the real discussion.

[Shwa]

Racist hiring programs are supposed to "ameliorate" the fact visible minority members can't speak English well enough to get a job on their own?

Well the hiring programs are clearly not racist, unless you consider your continual bleeting of the word a way of defining it. As if a people can be "racist" against themselves. In the case of the OP, I highly doubt that language has anything to do with it.

[kimmy]

I once tried to apply for a government job. Used the website to apply, uploaded my resume, filled in my personal information, hit "submit", and ... was informed that "Applications from your region will not be considered for this position." Albertans need not apply.

(It became minor controversy a while later... the idea, it turned out, was not to exclude western Canadians, it was that they did not want to pay for relocation expenses of employees who could be recruited from closer to home-- even though I, and I'm sure other applicants, would have happily paid for our own relocation. The government of the day-- Chretien was in charge at the time-- quickly changed that rule when it realized how bad it sounded in light of their talk about fighting Western Alienation.)

Anyway, it left me with a bad impression. That I couldn't apply because of my postal code seemed like an absurd and arbitrary decision. When Argus talked about jobs being arbitrarily declared "French required" for no functional reason, it reinforced the perception. And if they're already making hiring decisions based on purely arbitrary criteria, why not pick skin-color. Why not pick gender or age or height. Why not pick shoe-size.

Nope it isn't "blatant racism". It is something we all must agree with IF we believe in the supremacy of law.

Charter of Rights and Freedoms:

15. (1) Every individual is equal before the and under the law and has the right to the equal protection and equal benefit of the law without discrimination and, in particular, without discrimination based on race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, sex, age, or mental or physical disability.

(2) Subsection (1) does not preclude any law, program or activity that has as its object the amelioration of conditions of disadvantaged individuals or groups including those that are disadvantaged because of race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, sex, age, or mental or physical disability.(5)

That doesn't prove it's not racist, it just proves that the Charter of Rights doesn't prohibit affirmative action programs.

-k

[charter.rights]

That doesn't prove it's not racist, it just proves that the Charter of Rights doesn't prohibit affirmative action programs.

-k

Because the framers saw it as a way to tip the scale in the direction of equity and equality. Don't forget that the affirmative action programs are designed to displace the Anglo-European white males, which makes you one of the targets of affirmative action program. If you hold a job in public service, or apply for one you would likely receive special consideration, and not be evaluated on merit alone.

[Argus]

Ha ha ha. Most of those candidates speak English, French and at least on other language

No, in fact they don't, which is why lack of communications skills has been repeatedly cited as a key reason why immigrants - and 70% of visible minorities are immigrants - have floundered in the Canadian economy.

If you ever read more than a comic book you'd know that.

Edited July 24, 2010 by Argus

[Argus]

I like the right to exercise free speech. Don't you?

Now if only you had anything worth listening to.

[Argus]

Well the hiring programs are clearly not racist, unless you consider your continual bleeting of the word a way of defining it. As if a people can be "racist" against themselves. In the case of the OP, I highly doubt that language has anything to do with it.

If you hire someone based on their skin colour it's racist. There is no ifs, ands or buts about it. You want or don't want people based on race - that's racist.

You might claim its for some sort of noble cause, but then I'm sure southern rednecks who didn't want the darkies around their innocent white children thought they had a noble cause too.

[Argus]

Because the framers saw it as a way to tip the scale in the direction of equity and equality.

Because the "framers" were liberal socialists. The notion that you can beget "equality" by displaying unequal treatment is ludicrous on its face.

Unless, of course, you're talking equality of results as opposed to equality of opportunity. And of course, you are, as are the supporters of this sort of racist hiring quota. You don't care about equality of opportunity. You want equality of results. Which, in essence is a Marxist sort of philosophy.

[kimmy]

Because the framers saw it as a way to tip the scale in the direction of equity and equality.

Sure, but that doesn't alter the fact that it's racism.

Don't forget that the affirmative action programs are designed to displace the Anglo-European white males, which makes you one of the targets of affirmative action program. If you hold a job in public service, or apply for one you would likely receive special consideration, and not be evaluated on merit alone.

That I could theoretically benefit from this discrimination doesn't alter the fact that it's discrimination. It certainly didn't help the woman in the original article, either.

In practice, I can't work for the government anyway. After the eliminated the rule regarding applicant locations, I tried again and found that there's no point: an F.S.L. kid from the Prairies isn't going to meet language requirements for most government jobs. And even if you get in, promotions are reserved for those with fluent French. It would have been a foolish career choice and I'm glad to have gone elsewhere.

-k

[Argus]

In practice, I can't work for the government anyway. After the eliminated the rule regarding applicant locations, I tried again and found that there's no point: an F.S.L. kid from the Prairies isn't going to meet language requirements for most government jobs. And even if you get in, promotions are reserved for those with fluent French. It would have been a foolish career choice and I'm glad to have gone elsewhere.

It's not quite that hopeless, Kimmy. It can be very frustrating, I admit, but I and other unilingual people have succeeded in the public service, albeit we have a harder road to hoe than bilingual people who aren't as capable as us. The problem is first and foremost that if you don't have a specific technical skill the government needs, such as a lawyer, or economist or such, then you're often trying to get in through the clerical ranks. Many clerical jobs are administration, and the great bulk of them are bilingual. I got in through just such a pool, but mainly because the area which needed a clerk needed one immediately, and the only available pool had already used up all the bilingual people in it. Only unilinguals were left.

Once I was in I proved to be the best person on the team, and so was made permanent and then promoted a number of times. But if I'd been bilingual I'd be higher than I am now, that's for certain. In fact, I would have been manager of the section within two years had I been bilingual. Instead I had to wait some years then transfer out of the administration/financial area before moving up again. Even so, only one bilingual person who came in around the same time is higher than I am, and she's an insane workaholic who is going nuts at present as a manager at the RCMP.

Then again I'm in Ottawa. The universal desire for bilingualism is not nearly as heavy in the rest of the country.

[WIP]

Because the "framers" were liberal socialists. The notion that you can beget "equality" by displaying unequal treatment is ludicrous on its face.

Except that there is no other way to bust up nepotism and entrenched cliques in both government and large private corporations.

A few years ago my company was faced with its own hiring scandal when the Human Resources manager sent out a private email from her office computer in which she bragged that no "pakis" had been hired since she took charge of HR five years previously. There were complaints from South Asians and other minorities that something reeked in our company's hiring practice, but there was no tangible evidence of foul play. Everyone who had been turned down for a job was given a reason that could be cited from policy guidelines. And of course someone became suspicious, which was why her communications were being monitored. That example of how easy it is for management to discriminate while leaving no trail of evidence, showed me that claims that targeted hirings and quotas etc. are not necessary in our modern post-racial age, are a fraud.

Harper is latching on to the reverse discrimination meme because he is trying to appeal to us older white voters with the same subtle race-baiting themes that are now an active part of America's Republican Party politics. If they can keep us focused on kicking down minorities and others we consider outsiders; they can continue rewarding their corporate donors and robbing us all blind with an agenda that only benefits the rich and powerful.

Unless, of course, you're talking equality of results as opposed to equality of opportunity. And of course, you are, as are the supporters of this sort of racist hiring quota. You don't care about equality of opportunity. You want equality of results. Which, in essence is a Marxist sort of philosophy.

Are you conservatives giving us a stark choice between corporate fascism and marxism? If so, sign me up for a hammer and sickle flag! All the faux outrage over "big government" is a diversion from the real story that our politicians are bought and payed for by large corporations (oil companies in particular). We're supposed to jump and run every time some corporate lackey uses communism to fend off criticism. This ruse is starting to wear thin among those of us who are wising up to being divided by race and other tactics.

[kimmy]

First time I tried to apply (a junior level IT job, btw) I was rejected out of hand because I lived in Edmonton. Second time (also a junior level IT job) it was because I was not fluent in French. There won't be a third time, but if there was, I am sure that I'd likewise be either too pale or too anglo to be considered.

Why would I keep trying to get into a club that clearly doesn't want me as a member? I've picked a different path and am much the better for it.

-k

[Shwa]

If you hire someone based on their skin colour it's racist. There is no ifs, ands or buts about it. You want or don't want people based on race - that's racist.

You might claim its for some sort of noble cause, but then I'm sure southern rednecks who didn't want the darkies around their innocent white children thought they had a noble cause too.

No it isn't racist and you co-opting the word for your own special purposes doesn't make it racist either.

Where your argument about racism goes off the rails - other than the obvious aspects of real racist power structures - is that "non-aboriginal" or "non-visible minority" does not denote "race."

So all you are left with is more hysterical cries of wolf and a whole lot of bleeting from the puffy sheep in your pen. But least it keeps you busy enough and keeps your mind off the shearing time.

Edited July 25, 2010 by Shwa

[Shwa]

Sure, but that doesn't alter the fact that it's racism.

But in fact, it isn't racism. You may wish it to be, but it isn't.

That I could theoretically benefit from this discrimination doesn't alter the fact that it's discrimination. It certainly didn't help the woman in the original article, either.

It is discrimination, but designed to ameliorate the conditions of a disadvantaged group. Our society is full of such discriminations and it always has been. You are just finding fault with that now?

In practice, I can't work for the government anyway. After the eliminated the rule regarding applicant locations, I tried again and found that there's no point: an F.S.L. kid from the Prairies isn't going to meet language requirements for most government jobs. And even if you get in, promotions are reserved for those with fluent French. It would have been a foolish career choice and I'm glad to have gone elsewhere.

Patently false. I know plenty of unilingual English people that work for Federal departments and agencies - including the military and RCMP, that live in the West. MOST "government jobs" are not bilingual required. As well, if you were unilingual and qualify for a blingual job, the Federal government has an excellent French language training program. Not sure where you get your information about Federal government jobs, but it could use an update from credible sources.

Edited July 25, 2010 by Shwa

[Jack Weber]

No it isn't racist and you co-opting the word for your own special purposes doesn't make it racist either.

Where your argument about racism goes off the rails - other than the obvious aspects of real racist power structures - is that "non-aboriginal" or "non-visible minority" does not denote "race."

So all you are left with is more hysterical cries of wolf and a whole lot of bleeting from the puffy sheep in your pen. But least it keeps you busy enough and keeps your mind off the shearing time.

Do not question Argus...

He has an elite brain you are not equipped with!

Perhaps you can do me a favour...

See....Argus thinks every position I've ever taken here would make someone like Layton proud.

I've asked the "Big Giant Head" to provide a list of these things.He,as of yet,has not done so.Perhaps he's preparing it in a language only he,and the other voices in said "Big Giant Head",understand fully?

Could you get this list from him?

Edited July 25, 2010 by Jack Weber