Morgentaler attacks both Libs & Cons

[maplesyrup]

Morgentaler warns Canada's abortion rights at stake

"I'd like to have an iron-clad guarantee from Mr. Harper that he would not introduce new legislation on abortion, that he would not hold a referendum and he would not allow a private member's bill to act as a Trojan horse to do that," Morgentaler said in an interview from Toronto.

"To me, it looks like they have a hidden agenda."

He also issued an open letter to Harper, warning that his evasiveness on the abortion issue represents a clear danger to women's rights in Canada.

But Morgentaler said the Tories don't pose the only threat when it comes to protecting abortion rights.

In the Maritimes, where abortion services are severely restricted, Morgentaler said the federal Liberal government has failed to enforce the Canada Health Act to guarantee equal access to all women.

"It's important that a new government enforce the Canada Health Act in all provinces so that women in Fredericton get the same privileges and access to abortion as they do in Toronto," said Morgentaler.

[August1991]

Morgentaler is making a good point. To my knowledge, there is no MD in PEI who performs abortions. It is common for women in NB to come to Montreal for this procedure because they cannot have it done in their home province.

This is not a technical issue in the sense of costly equipment. And rather speaking about this in a theoretical way, he is being very practical.

Trust Morgentaler to enter into the fray.

[maplesyrup]

I am pleased Montgentaler mentioned the Liberal failings in this area as well as the Conservatives, as the Liberals are walking around with this "holier than thou" attitude towards the Conservatives on social issues.

Good on Morgentaler to point out the hypocrisy.

Liberals often don't walk the talk.

[takeanumber]

The Liberals favour the status quo: shame on them.

The Conservatives favour a regression: shame on them.

Shame on both of them.

[DAC]

"It's important that a new government enforce the Canada Health Act in all provinces so that women in Fredericton get the same privileges and access to abortion as they do in Toronto," said Morgentaler.

Typical Morgentaler dishonesty. The Canada Health Act does not specify particular procedures - that is a provincial responsibility, and every province has some procedures which it does not fund that are funded in other provinces.

This is the same man who stood up in public in Halifax a few years ago and said plainly that you could not even see the fetus when it was 8 weeks old -- at that point every medical text I have seen says it's about an inch (2.5 cm) long. But perhaps he's just a blind surgeon instead of a dishonest one.

However I wouldn't trust a word he said unless I had carefully checked it out myself.

[takeanumber]

Typical Morgentaler dishonesty. The Canada Health Act does not specify particular procedures - that is a provincial responsibility, and every province has some procedures which it does not fund that are funded in other provinces.

I'm not so sure about this arguement.

I think there are like, a set of procedures that you do have to provide, like, you know, emergency surgury and so on.

I know they can delist things like cosmetic things, and even certain joint surgeries, but yeh.

Not so sure.

[idealisttotheend]

The Act specifies that it must be comprehensive . The question would be whether abortion is part of a comprehensive health care package and since NB does not fund them then we can assume that there would be no federal law requirement to fund abortions.

[takeanumber]

Yeh, it's a legislative void.

So I'll just outline the absurdity of New Brunswick social policy on this front.

The thing that irks me about New Brunswick though is that if a woman has an unwanted pregnancy, especially if she's younger (16-20), there's really no support at all for her if she goes through with it.

So it's kinda this conservative double standard, you know what I mean?

We don't want you having an abortion, but agree that it's your right, but as a province, we're not going to enable you to do it, so, if you're having that kid, but don't expect us to help you out or anything, because you shouldn't have gotten pregnant in the first place, so you're screwed.

It just seems to be inconsistant social policy.

Some conservatives (note the small c), don't want to pay for other people's kids.

But they don't want them to have abortions (and let's face it, condoms and birthcontrol CAN fail.)

So then, they'll argue abstinence.

So in a way, the poverty imposed on the mother and the kid (because the man typically runs away), is a punishment for her, because conservatives want to send a message about abstinence, in effect saying, "if you're a harlott, you're going to get screwed".

So the kid should suffer too, which makes sense, especially from a fundamentalist Christian point of view, because the Kid is a bastard, and is thus, astigmatized as such.

So the kid is clearly guilty too, for his mothers offence, and deserves to grow up in poverty.

And seriously, that's what happens in New Brunswick, a jurisdiction where a Liberal isn't a liberal, and a Conservative isn't a conservative.

Now I know that this line of logic is incorrect, because I'm the one pointing out how 'they' tend to think on the issue.

So, no conclusion. I have my take on it. They can have theirs. It won't stop me from pointing out their faults.

[August1991]

Typical Morgentaler dishonesty. The Canada Health Act does not specify particular procedures - that is a provincial responsibility, and every province has some procedures which it does not fund that are funded in other provinces.

In Morgentaler's mind, the Canada Health Act has nothing to do with it. He has virtually dedicated his life to ensuring that women have access to safe abortions.

Late last year the Moncton hospital, one of the largest in the Maritimes, announced that beginning in 2003 it would only perform emergency abortions. The hospital had performed more than 300 abortions a year, about half of the provincial total.

CMAJ Report

I don't know who the CMAJ is and I have no idea if 600 abortions is a reasonable number. On a quick estimate, it should be closer to at least 5 times that number.

[takeanumber]

Moncton services most of the North East shore, which is the poorest.

Might explain the high incidence of abortions.

I didn't know Moncton Hospital was doing abortions.

Impressive.

But Odd.

[August1991]

The Liberals favour the status quo: shame on them.

The Conservatives favour a regression: shame on them.

They both in effect favour the status quo. And of all the various things to do in Canada now, from helicopters to absurd tax rules, I'm not sure making abortions available in Charlottetown is a priority - particularly if the people of PEI haven't organized this themselves. Keep the issue in perspective.

So I'll just outline the absurdity of New Brunswick social policy on this front.

I don't disagree with what you're saying all through those "So's". But I think you present a darker picture than reality since you present the worst case scenario.

In any case, can (should) the federal government send in an army of social workers?

[takeanumber]

particularly if the people of PEI haven't organized this themselves. Keep the issue in perspective.

I don't think you can turn your head and cough on the Island without somebody gossipping about you.

To drive to Moncton to get an abortion is no biggie. It's literally a drive over the bridge and then a quick hour drive, either taking the Acadian coastal route or taking the trans can to the 1 and then up.

You know, it kind of brings up the whole issue of rural healthcare. The country side is really going to get gray soon, and I mean, it's just gonna be hard to service them. I mean, forget being a woman needing an abortion, what about driving for hours to get a hip done?

Anyway, nobody wants to talk about something as mundane as 'rural healthcare' because it's an issue to be reserved for 2015 when we all say, "why didn't we plan for this".

Meh.

[August1991]

You know, it kind of brings up the whole issue of rural healthcare. The country side is really going to get gray soon, and I mean, it's just gonna be hard to service them. I mean, forget being a woman needing an abortion, what about driving for hours to get a hip done?

No doubt about it. Health care delivery will change.

I find ironic that the Libs want to have State day care while they look for ways to organize home health care for the elderly.

The rural side is interesting because they are over-represented for seats.

Finally, we will soon enter a culture of death. Parts of Europe are like this where most people are old and everyone seems to be dying.

[takeanumber]

The rural areas are really overrepresented, and I've written multiple papers on how to tackle the problem, you know, rural communities have needs when it comes to representation because of geography; but at the same time, there is this liberal (small l) idea of one person, one vote...equal voting parity for all; which I know sounds really, really offensive to people in PEI and rural Alberta, but it's true.

George Brown (Reform Party, 1850's and 1860's) wanted there to be one person, one vote, that was the entire point of the whole federation idea from his point of view (confederation was really put together by different people for different reasons, like Tupper, who had been lusting after more allies across the istmus in New Brunswick, etc) anyway.

Equal voting parity CAN be achieved, and not through something caustic like pure PR, or some mixed PR demon child from Germany .

Whatever:

I think rural issues are being drowned out by the constant whining from the farm; and the fact that since it's a 'family' business, it's exempt from market forces. Low prices, soaring fertilizer costs, drought, soaring gas prices, drought, BSE, soaring gas prices, drought.

Staggering from one disaster to another, always asking for more money, constantly asking for more money...more money, more money.

And you know, I'm sure some urban Canadians are tired of it just as many rural voters are tired of being ignored. They may be grossly overrepresented, but they still feel cheated if they only get 3 billion. Or only get 5 billion.

Anyway.

Rural issues, aside from the gun registry (for which there is a better, cheapter, potentially new anti-liberal solution for which I favour) are issues for this election.

[DAC]

The thing that irks me about New Brunswick though is that if a woman has an unwanted pregnancy, especially if she's younger (16-20), there's really no support at all for her if she goes through with it. 

So it's kinda this conservative double standard, you know what I mean?

Not true. Granted there is no support at the government level - but consider the Christian Heritage Party's contrary policy if you are going to talk about social consdervatives or small c conservatives.

More directly, though, on a practical level, there are crisis preganancy centres established by conservative Christians all across the country, which not only offer counsel to women in a difficult pregnancy, but provide a lot of help both material and social/emotional, for such women. The interesting thing is that in many cases they find that the person who actually wants the abortion is the boy friend, husband or parent, not the woman involved.

[Alliance Fanatic]

I don't really consider abortion a basic right, I find that life is more important than a person trying to kill off her child due to her irresponsible behavior. I find that its pretty sad that we have devalued a life of child so much in society that abortion is considered a garaunteed right, and everyone must have access to it. What will the left wing think up next, for certain babies the parents don't want we'll throw them in a special dumpster.

I was also going over a statistic that said 4/5's of women had emotional problems after getting an abortion. What do left wingers think that abortion is simply getting rid of nothing but a heap of garbage. I find it sad that you leftists feel so strongly that abortion is a right.

The thing that irks me about New Brunswick though is that if a woman has an unwanted pregnancy, especially if she's younger (16-20), there's really no support at all for her if she goes through with it.

Yeah you know because its not like its a persons life were talking about.

So the kid is clearly guilty too, for his mothers offence, and deserves to grow up in poverty.

Yeah no doubt, can you tell us a few horror stories and enlighten us. Last time I remember most fundamentalist christian church's were helping young women who had unwanted pregnancies.

[maplesyrup]

AF....abortion is women's busines, not yours.

[idealisttotheend]

I think defining abortion as a right is a fallacy, better to define it as a choice and let each individual decide whether is is a right or not based on their own personal beliefs about what does and does not constitute a life.

Abortion can be quiet emotionally traumatizing but I think the solution is better sex education not restricting abortion.

As to councelling I'm all for it as long as the women in question has the choice of who does the councilling. Promoting adoption in unwanted cases might not be such a bad thing -- so long as it is done respectfully and with the women still have full and free choice.

[maplesyrup]

Men...mind your own business on the abortion issue.

[idealisttotheend]

Well I would MS, but I am adopted and so have always had sort of an interest in it. Men do have something to do with the process I believe and I consider my birth to be my buisness. Is it really time for a men's rights movement? Lol

Say a women has sex with a man and tells him she's on the pill but she is not. What are the man's rights?

If a man does not want a child but the women does should the man have to support the child. What is the man's rights?

This could get interesting.

[takeanumber]

Last time I remember most fundamentalist christian church's were helping young women who had unwanted pregnancies.

I'm not going to type what I want to.

Instead, I'll reply: Sure, so long as she confesses that she's a heather and his child is a bastard, and is otherwise 'preyed' upon by having their believes shoved on her.

I think if men don't want a kid, they shouldn't be running the risk, (even with a condom). I can't believe that people are still screwing without a condom. (See: the Maury show)

As to councelling I'm all for it as long as the women in question has the choice of who does the abortion. Promoting adoption in unwanted cases might not be such a bad thing -- so long as it is done respectfully and with the women still have full and free choice.

Not mandatory councilling. No way. She doesn't need to be humiliated by some anti-choice person. (And that's a real possibility.) It's her choice. If she wants councilling, she should get it, for free.

If she doesn't want it, back off.

[idealisttotheend]

If she doesn't want it, back off.

Now that I think about it you are right, but I'd still like to find a way to promote adoption.

[maplesyrup]

Abortion activists warn of Conservative policy

I sense the tide may be turning.

[Alliance Fanatic]

I'm not going to type what I want to.

Instead, I'll reply: Sure, so long as she confesses that she's a heather and his child is a bastard, and is otherwise 'preyed' upon by having their believes shoved on her.

Provide some links with some proof, after all your the one that makes up all of the BS on this forum.

Abortion is an issue for everybody because it deal's with life. So I guess I should'nt help a person getting beat up because its not my business. If an ethnic group is being killed off in another country, I should'nt interfere because its not my business.

I believe that we as a society cannot stand back while human life is being abused, whether its rape, murder, genocide, abortion, etc.

Why is Morgentaller forcing the people of New Brunswick to pay for abortion on demand. Why should any person have to contribute to a practice they believe is barbaric, and is simply killing unwanted children. Why do left wingers want to force us all to pay for abortions.

http://www.abortioninfo.net/facts/affect2.shtml

http://www.abortioninfo.net/facts/people2_1.shtml

http://www.abortioninfo.net/facts/people2_2.shtml

So what kind of generation do you want this to be, if history looks upon us will they say that this is the generation that cared for human life, and respected human life in all its forms. Or will history say that this is the generation that was selfish and only cared about what feeled "good".

So if abortion is none of our business, then technically neither is slavery, after all we should'nt intrude on slave owners it their right, since they have control over their "property".

Thats obviously hypocritical of left wingers to say that they were the ones that were against slavery and aparthied even though they claim that abortion is more important that life.

[takeanumber]

Provide some links with some proof, after all your the one that makes up all of the BS on this forum.

The only proof I have is personal experience with regards to fundamentalist Baptists and single mothers.

I know it happens.

As for the personal attack, kudos. I appreciate them. It makes me feel good inside knowing that I offend you. It reinforces the validity and veracity of my point of view.

As for the comment "why should I have to pay?", the answer is because it's considered a public good.

I hear (small c) conservatives often say that those who can't afford to have children, shouldn't have them. I then hear them say that abortion shouldn't be allowed. This often followed up with a demand that children be put up for adoption. All of this deprives a woman of choice.

If she chooses to keep her kid, then this is excellent! We should all pay some taxes, and have government send them her way so that her child has a decent chance at some social mobility!

If she chooses adoption, good for her! The point is that by giving her the chance the choose, we're not treating her like a cow.

If she chooses abortion, this is unfortunate. At the end of the day though, in spite of how you feel, it's her body, and it's her choice.

So, it's about choice, and with choice comes entropy.

I know it's difficult for those who lean towards the authoritarian to accept entropy (and even myself when it comes to many forms of entropy), but, there it is.