Business in the Province of Ontario

[TammyFlores]

Hi! I have a question I am hoping someone can help me with. If a company claims you owe them, but can not provide proof or documentation behind their claim, do the charges exist?

[M.Dancer]

Hi! I have a question I am hoping someone can help me with. If a company claims you owe them, but can not provide proof or documentation behind their claim, do the charges exist?

Yes, if you owe them.

[TammyFlores]

Yes, if you owe them.

But how do you know if you owe them if they don't provide you with any documentation?

[Michael Hardner]

Hi! I have a question I am hoping someone can help me with. If a company claims you owe them, but can not provide proof or documentation behind their claim, do the charges exist?

What charges ? They are charging that you owe them - that charge exists. Can they charge your credit card ? Presumably if they have a merchant number they can, however there are rules around providing signatures and so on so if you dispute the charge they won't be able to back it up unless you signed or gave assent. ( I think it's handled differently for credit charges made over the telephone, but they may have an agreement with the credit card company as to how disputes are handled. )

[TammyFlores]

What charges ? They are charging that you owe them - that charge exists. Can they charge your credit card ? Presumably if they have a merchant number they can, however there are rules around providing signatures and so on so if you dispute the charge they won't be able to back it up unless you signed or gave assent. ( I think it's handled differently for credit charges made over the telephone, but they may have an agreement with the credit card company as to how disputes are handled. )

I don't want to get into all the details, but in a nutshell, the 407 ETR, gave me someone else's account, 5 years after they say I should have been responsible for charges that they were billing someone else, however never provided the details/documentation behind what they are claiming. For 5 years I have requested the documentation, however, for 5 years they never fully disclosed their claim. If they don't provide you with proof that the charges actually exist, do they exist? And if they do exist, do they not have a responsibility to provide you with the documentation that shows what the charges they are trying to claim is for?

[M.Dancer]

But how do you know if you owe them if they don't provide you with any documentation?

Is the person or company unaware of their actions?

Your question is like, If someone steals $100...but there is no evidence, is there a crime?

[TammyFlores]

Is the person or company unaware of their actions?

Your question is like, If someone steals $100...but there is no evidence, is there a crime?

The company is making a claim, but providing no details or proof of what they are claiming.

[M.Dancer]

The company is making a claim, but providing no details or proof of what they are claiming.

Is there an invoice? Does it say what they claim to have provided...can you be more specific?

[Michael Hardner]

I don't want to get into all the details, but in a nutshell, the 407 ETR, gave me someone else's account, 5 years after they say I should have been responsible for charges that they were billing someone else, however never provided the details/documentation behind what they are claiming. For 5 years I have requested the documentation, however, for 5 years they never fully disclosed their claim. If they don't provide you with proof that the charges actually exist, do they exist? And if they do exist, do they not have a responsibility to provide you with the documentation that shows what the charges they are trying to claim is for?

You got your account from somebody else without the charges being settled first ? Are these charges 5 years old ?

[Wild Bill]

The company is making a claim, but providing no details or proof of what they are claiming.

Tammy, it's the 407! This is a unique case. The 407 couldn't care less about right or wrong! They only care about getting money. They know that disputes involve small sums, which means it's difficult and time consuming for a customer to make a complaint. They can run him around for years and never worry about any backlash.

They ran me around for over 10 years. Finally, thanks to McGuinty, I couldn't get my licence plate renewal until I paid them over $200 for an account I didn't have with them! I paid, so that I could still drive, but my first stop was my MPP's office.

Those folks were great! The lady there had a "secret" phone number to talk to a real person at the 407 office, which was more than I was ever able to find out! It took a couple more weeks but eventually it was finally all straightened out.

A google will quickly show you that as of a few years ago there were more than 800,000 billing complaints against the 407! Lord knows how high the figure is today! There have been government inquiries and such but all we've gotten is a lot of talk.

I advise you to just go to your MPP. Nothing else seems to work with those people.

[TammyFlores]

Is there an invoice? Does it say what they claim to have provided...can you be more specific?

The invoices/account belonged to another person. 5 years after the fact they said... you are responsible for charges from Oct 19, 2000 onward. They say from Oct. 19, 2000 to sometime in 2005 I should have been responsible for the charges that they were billing to someone else. They took the invoices/account that they billed and belonged to another person, reprinted only from August 2002 to 2005... charge a bunch of interest/late fees and said pay up. First of all, can they do that? I had an account with them, in my name... always paid my bill, can they just give you someone elses account? Then my next question is if there are charges and I am responsible(which I still do not know what went on in that account)... but if there are charges I am responsible for, would I be responsible for interest and late fees because of their billing error?

[Michael Hardner]

but if there are charges I am responsible for, would I be responsible for interest and late fees because of their billing error?

Wild Bill's advice seems very sound to me. I would follow that.

[TammyFlores]

Tammy, it's the 407! This is a unique case. The 407 couldn't care less about right or wrong! They only care about getting money. They know that disputes involve small sums, which means it's difficult and time consuming for a customer to make a complaint. They can run him around for years and never worry about any backlash.

They ran me around for over 10 years. Finally, thanks to McGuinty, I couldn't get my licence plate renewal until I paid them over $200 for an account I didn't have with them! I paid, so that I could still drive, but my first stop was my MPP's office.

Those folks were great! The lady there had a "secret" phone number to talk to a real person at the 407 office, which was more than I was ever able to find out! It took a couple more weeks but eventually it was finally all straightened out.

A google will quickly show you that as of a few years ago there were more than 800,000 billing complaints against the 407! Lord knows how high the figure is today! There have been government inquiries and such but all we've gotten is a lot of talk.

I advise you to just go to your MPP. Nothing else seems to work with those people.

My MPP's office has been involved for years and so is Jake Irwin from MTO but everyone is passing the buck on this one.

[TammyFlores]

Ministry for Consumers refuses to do anything re: 407 ETR... hense my quest to find an answer to the question. If a company makes a claim that you owe them, but does not provide you with the documentation/proof behind their claim, do the charges exist?

[Michael Hardner]

Ministry for Consumers refuses to do anything re: 407 ETR... hense my quest to find an answer to the question. If a company makes a claim that you owe them, but does not provide you with the documentation/proof behind their claim, do the charges exist?

...also go to the press. I used that in my favour when dealing with a political organ.

[TammyFlores]

...also go to the press. I used that in my favour when dealing with a political organ.

There is a reporter I have been keeping in the loop that is as frustrated as I am over the 407's abuse of power that the government gave them.

[TammyFlores]

But I came to this forum to ask about Business in general in the Province of Ontario. Can a company charge you for just anything or do you have to know in advance what you are being charged for? If they provide you with a service, don't they have to justify the charges before they say pay up or can they just say you owe this amount and provide absolutely no documentation behind what they are claiming you owe? If a business in Ontario makes a billing error, is it the customers fault?

[TammyFlores]

Maybe this is a better way to ask my question for any legal begals out there. In the Province of Ontario do charges exists if the company can not provide you with documentation that proves their claim that you owe?

[Wild Bill]

Maybe this is a better way to ask my question for any legal begals out there. In the Province of Ontario do charges exists if the company can not provide you with documentation that proves their claim that you owe?

Tammy, I'm not a lawyer but I think you will find that yes, if it came to court a company would have to prove to a judge that you actually had a delinguent account and that you indeed owe them money. Otherwise, anybody could claim anything!

However, over the past few decades there's been a new attitude among some businesses and individuals about how to use the law. They know before they start a suit that they shouldn't win but they figure they can afford to drag it out and run the costs up better than their opponent! So most of the time their opponent, or more properly their victim, can't afford the fight so they just give up.

407 knows that it is a hardship for folks like you and me to take them to court for a few hundred dollars. Odds are it means time off of work and maybe even lawyer fees. So we just moan and live with it.

Many people mistakenly believe that they have some protection by using small claims court. If someone ripped them off on a home renovation or a vehicle repair they think they can take them to court and win without spending too much money in fees. What they don't know is that you can win your case and then the defendant still doesn't pay you! Winning in small claims court is not enough! At that level there is no mechanism to force him to immediately pay you. You have to go back to court to seek a judgement to force him to pay, often involving garnashees and court seizure of assets. If the defendant who ripped you off has skipped town or gone out of business there may be nobody for you to chase!

Patents are supposed to protect new ideas but I've seen a number of times how in the States a big company will send a letter threatening to sue a smaller company for infringing on their patent for a guitar amplifier based on vacuum tube designs that have been public domain for 50 years! How it works is, the big company applies for a patent on something that as I said, is really an old design. The US patent office doesn't spend the money or resources searching to see if the design is old and/or public domain. What they do is just automatically issue the patent! They seem to feel that if the patent is invalid then somebody will challenge it in court and the patent will be struck down. This of course means the companies involved spend the money, not the US patent office.

What makes the situation unfair is that the big company has more money for lawyers. If they spot a small company that is starting to become a significant competitor they can use the patent law to scare the little guys out of the market! It's not right and it's not fair but it happens a LOT!

Actually, we Canadians seem worse than most folks for having a naive, child-like faith in the Law and its institutions! We think that just because it's written down somewhere that it will always be enforced and will always be fair. Nothing could be further from the truth! Too often, all that matters is how expensive a lawyer you can afford.

The 407 has had extensive political connections since it bought the highway. Many of our politicians hold big chunks of stock! It charges the highest tolls in the world! It is literally a license to print money. With so many politicians making money from it it is not surprising that we citizens enjoy so little protection from being fleeced.

Tammy, is your MPP a Liberal? If so, perhaps you can contact someone in an Opposition party who might be willing to help.

[TammyFlores]

Tammy, I'm not a lawyer but I think you will find that yes, if it came to court a company would have to prove to a judge that you actually had a delinguent account and that you indeed owe them money. Otherwise, anybody could claim anything!

However, over the past few decades there's been a new attitude among some businesses and individuals about how to use the law. They know before they start a suit that they shouldn't win but they figure they can afford to drag it out and run the costs up better than their opponent! So most of the time their opponent, or more properly their victim, can't afford the fight so they just give up.

407 knows that it is a hardship for folks like you and me to take them to court for a few hundred dollars. Odds are it means time off of work and maybe even lawyer fees. So we just moan and live with it.

Many people mistakenly believe that they have some protection by using small claims court. If someone ripped them off on a home renovation or a vehicle repair they think they can take them to court and win without spending too much money in fees. What they don't know is that you can win your case and then the defendant still doesn't pay you! Winning in small claims court is not enough! At that level there is no mechanism to force him to immediately pay you. You have to go back to court to seek a judgement to force him to pay, often involving garnashees and court seizure of assets. If the defendant who ripped you off has skipped town or gone out of business there may be nobody for you to chase!

Patents are supposed to protect new ideas but I've seen a number of times how in the States a big company will send a letter threatening to sue a smaller company for infringing on their patent for a guitar amplifier based on vacuum tube designs that have been public domain for 50 years! How it works is, the big company applies for a patent on something that as I said, is really an old design. The US patent office doesn't spend the money or resources searching to see if the design is old and/or public domain. What they do is just automatically issue the patent! They seem to feel that if the patent is invalid then somebody will challenge it in court and the patent will be struck down. This of course means the companies involved spend the money, not the US patent office.

What makes the situation unfair is that the big company has more money for lawyers. If they spot a small company that is starting to become a significant competitor they can use the patent law to scare the little guys out of the market! It's not right and it's not fair but it happens a LOT!

Actually, we Canadians seem worse than most folks for having a naive, child-like faith in the Law and its institutions! We think that just because it's written down somewhere that it will always be enforced and will always be fair. Nothing could be further from the truth! Too often, all that matters is how expensive a lawyer you can afford.

The 407 has had extensive political connections since it bought the highway. Many of our politicians hold big chunks of stock! It charges the highest tolls in the world! It is literally a license to print money. With so many politicians making money from it it is not surprising that we citizens enjoy so little protection from being fleeced.

Tammy, is your MPP a Liberal? If so, perhaps you can contact someone in an Opposition party who might be willing to help.

Yes he is Liberal. I did contact Frank Klees office, but I never heard back yet. Everything you are saying may be true, but that does not mean that we just roll over and take it. The government is acting like a private collection agency for one company. That in itself I think can be challenged if a lawyer wanted to. I tell you, if a lawyer wanted to put together a class action lawsuit for millions... I would do everything in my power to help gather all the information. As a matter of fact I have already started gather information. I started a facebook group "Stop the 407 ETR's Abuse of Power!" The horror stories people are messaging me. I told them to get their paper work in order and we are going to meet and discuss them and then try to find someone that will take it on for a percentage of the winnings. This may be the only way to fix this problem.

[Wild Bill]

Yes he is Liberal. I did contact Frank Klees office, but I never heard back yet. Everything you are saying may be true, but that does not mean that we just roll over and take it. The government is acting like a private collection agency for one company. That in itself I think can be challenged if a lawyer wanted to. I tell you, if a lawyer wanted to put together a class action lawsuit for millions... I would do everything in my power to help gather all the information. As a matter of fact I have already started gather information. I started a facebook group "Stop the 407 ETR's Abuse of Power!" The horror stories people are messaging me. I told them to get their paper work in order and we are going to meet and discuss them and then try to find someone that will take it on for a percentage of the winnings. This may be the only way to fix this problem.

As a fellow "screwee" I wish you luck! I would advise however that you spend some time googling up some research. A LOT of people have already tried to fight! You wouldn't want to waste energy and resources re-inventing the wheel, or repeating other peoples' mistakes. There are some high profile politicians that are active 407 opponents who have had some successes over the years and would be worth consulting. A united front is always more effective.

[TammyFlores]

As a fellow "screwee" I wish you luck! I would advise however that you spend some time googling up some research. A LOT of people have already tried to fight! You wouldn't want to waste energy and resources re-inventing the wheel, or repeating other peoples' mistakes. There are some high profile politicians that are active 407 opponents who have had some successes over the years and would be worth consulting. A united front is always more effective.

@Wild Bill this has been very helpful... I got to about page 4 or 5 in my google search and that's how I found Frank Klees comments and I then realized he was the transportation critic. That was only a few days ago and I immediately fired off an email because I want to tackle this as an organized effort. Do you know of any other off the top of your head? That would be very helpful. I am determined to see this to the end because I have a very hard time believing that MTO does not require the burden of proof from the 407 before they deny a plate.

[Wild Bill]

@Wild Bill this has been very helpful... I got to about page 4 or 5 in my google search and that's how I found Frank Klees comments and I then realized he was the transportation critic. That was only a few days ago and I immediately fired off an email because I want to tackle this as an organized effort. Do you know of any other off the top of your head? That would be very helpful. I am determined to see this to the end because I have a very hard time believing that MTO does not require the burden of proof from the 407 before they deny a plate.

This link refers to a Mike Colle. I don't know if he's still around. The article is interesting, though.

http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/912

[TammyFlores]

This link refers to a Mike Colle. I don't know if he's still around. The article is interesting, though.

http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/912

I have contacted his office in 2006 with no response. He's the MPP I was referring to that did the report. I put a call into Frank Klee's office. I will put another call intp Mike Colle's office today. Thanks