CANADIEN Posted April 5, 2010 Report Posted April 5, 2010 Hitler went to a Catholic school and even tried to become a priest. In any event this is a case were believing it does make you it. Hitler believed Jesus was his lord and savior. He was a Christian more specifically a Catholic. Hitler rarely if ever attended Mass as an adult. And for statement of him that seems to indicate that he considered himself to be a Christian, one can find statements in which he denounced Christiannity. The truth about Hitler is that besides his anti-Semetism and racism, his religious, philosophical and political views were all over the place. He certainly believed there was a God, he was raised a Catholic, and he found inspiration in a long tradition of Christian anti-Semetism, but he is bo more Christian (or anti-Christian) than he was a socialist or a capitalist. Quote
ToadBrother Posted April 5, 2010 Report Posted April 5, 2010 Hitler rarely if ever attended Mass as an adult. And for statement of him that seems to indicate that he considered himself to be a Christian, one can find statements in which he denounced Christiannity. The truth about Hitler is that besides his anti-Semetism and racism, his religious, philosophical and political views were all over the place. He certainly believed there was a God, he was raised a Catholic, and he found inspiration in a long tradition of Christian anti-Semetism, but he is bo more Christian (or anti-Christian) than he was a socialist or a capitalist. I think there's little doubt that Hitler and Goebbels had in mind the creation of some new state religion. I have no problem saying "Hitler was not a Christian". But to a large extent, Hitler's bizarre beliefs are irrelevant. Other than a few rarified types like Goebbels who were high up on the Nazi foodchain, the Nazi party and movement were populated by Christians. A lot of Catholics and Lutherans, including some leaders, clearly held profoundly anti-Semitic views, keenly took to German nationalism and were rabidly anti-Communist. This idea that German Christians can be excused because Hitler was probably a spiritualist nut with clear pagan and at times anti-Christian leanings is absurd. I can well understand any Christian with any sense of morality or decency wanting to distance themselves from the Nazis, but the fact is that over a thousand years of anti-Semitism; including persecutions, murder, exiles and pogroms show a clear line between the Holocaust and what went on before. Quote
CANADIEN Posted April 5, 2010 Report Posted April 5, 2010 I think there's little doubt that Hitler and Goebbels had in mind the creation of some new state religion. I have no problem saying "Hitler was not a Christian". But to a large extent, Hitler's bizarre beliefs are irrelevant. Other than a few rarified types like Goebbels who were high up on the Nazi foodchain, the Nazi party and movement were populated by Christians. A lot of Catholics and Lutherans, including some leaders, clearly held profoundly anti-Semitic views, keenly took to German nationalism and were rabidly anti-Communist. This idea that German Christians can be excused because Hitler was probably a spiritualist nut with clear pagan and at times anti-Christian leanings is absurd. I can well understand any Christian with any sense of morality or decency wanting to distance themselves from the Nazis, but the fact is that over a thousand years of anti-Semitism; including persecutions, murder, exiles and pogroms show a clear line between the Holocaust and what went on before. My point was not that Christians did not join the Nazi Party, or that centuries of distortion of true Christianity through anti0Sematism did not lead to the Holocaust, since it did. It was a comment as to whether or not Hitler himself could be termed a Christian. Christians who followed Hitler betrayed their call to be followers of God. That being said, one cannot dismiss it by saying that the ideology had nothing to do with (false) teachings that have circulated within the Church for centuries on hand. And I won;t be one to dismiss it. Quote
ToadBrother Posted April 5, 2010 Report Posted April 5, 2010 My point was not that Christians did not join the Nazi Party, or that centuries of distortion of true Christianity through anti0Sematism did not lead to the Holocaust, since it did. It was a comment as to whether or not Hitler himself could be termed a Christian. Christians who followed Hitler betrayed their call to be followers of God. That being said, one cannot dismiss it by saying that the ideology had nothing to do with (false) teachings that have circulated within the Church for centuries on hand. And I won;t be one to dismiss it. I'm not particularly interested in the game of "right teaching" vs. "wrong teaching". The fact was that a lot of Christendom for a long time hated and feared Jews, and there's at least some hints in the New Testament of hostility even between Early Christians and Jews (despite the fact that both groups at this time were overwhelmingly ethnic Jews, and that Christianity could at best during the 1st century be described as a Messianic Jewish sect). Quote
CANADIEN Posted April 5, 2010 Report Posted April 5, 2010 I'm not particularly interested in the game of "right teaching" vs. "wrong teaching". Then don't be. BTW, it is not a game, nor an attempt at deflecting rightful criticism. It's about me (and hopefully most) Christians confronting the evils done in the past, saying they were wrong and making clear to ourselves this is not what God called us to be. Quote
Guest TrueMetis Posted April 5, 2010 Report Posted April 5, 2010 Hitler rarely if ever attended Mass as an adult. And for statement of him that seems to indicate that he considered himself to be a Christian, one can find statements in which he denounced Christiannity. Neither do most Catholics. What are the statements of him denouncing Christianity? Is he douncing specific people? Specific branches? Or Christianity as a whole? The truth about Hitler is that besides his anti-Semetism and racism, his religious, philosophical and political views were all over the place. He certainly believed there was a God, he was raised a Catholic, and he found inspiration in a long tradition of Christian anti-Semetism, but he is bo more Christian (or anti-Christian) than he was a socialist or a capitalist. He was pretty Catholic. Quote
CANADIEN Posted April 5, 2010 Report Posted April 5, 2010 (edited) Neither do most Catholics. What are the statements of him denouncing Christianity? Is he douncing specific people? Specific branches? Or Christianity as a whole? He was pretty Catholic. And here are a few quotes from the man himself: Night of 11th-12th July, 1941 "National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... "The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... "Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things." 10th October, 1941, midday "Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure." 14th October, 1941, midday "The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.... "Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse.... "...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.... "Christianity <is> the liar.... "We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State." 19th October, 1941, night "The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity." 21st October, 1941, midday "Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer.... "The decisive falsification of Jesus' <who he asserts many times was never a Jew> doctrine was the work of St.Paul. He gave himself to this work... for the purposes of personal exploitation.... "Didn't the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, faggots? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it's in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St.Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea." 13th December, 1941, midnight "Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... <here insults people who believe transubstantiation>.... "When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/mischedj/ca_hitler.html Case closed. Edited April 5, 2010 by CANADIEN Quote
Guest TrueMetis Posted April 5, 2010 Report Posted April 5, 2010 Case closed. Alright. I've got some people to apologize to now. Quote
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