Olympic ceremonies lack French

[CANADIEN]

Which of course would include anyone who disagrees with you.

Actually no. But if you feel targeted, that's your problem, not mine.

[CANADIEN]

Now that's a consistent position, and I respect that. I too agree that if the games had been held in Quebec city, providing English interpretation would have been a waste of money.

The Games would have been held in Canada.

Most attendees would likely come from French-speaking countries anyway

Oh really. You meant nobody would have come from Calgary, Vancouver, toronto? And that all those American, Norwegian, Korean, German, etc., etc. etc. we see all the timein the Vancouver stands would have stayed away of the Games had been held in Quebec City? Excuse me while I laugh.

[Machjo]

The Games would have been held in Canada.

Oh really. You meant nobody would have come from Calgary, Vancouver, toronto? And that all those American, Norwegian, Korean, German, etc., etc. etc. we see all the timein the Vancouver stands would have stayed away of the Games had been held in Quebec City? Excuse me while I laugh.

So are you suggesting the games ought to be held in English, Norwegian, Korean, German, etc. etc. etc. too? Where do we stop? Select a local language, and leave it at that. In Quebec city, French would have sufficed, then those who want to see it either learn French or just tune out and watch the games. Then when the games are held in Seoul, same thing. Either you learn Korean or you put up with it. And when the games are in Oslo, same thing. Likewise in Berlin, etc. etc. etc. Honestly, how many French Canadians are there in Vancouver watching the games among those who don't know English? Seldom deos a monolingual dare to venture outside his language area. The same would apply with the Olympics in Quebec City.

[Machjo]

Oh really. You meant nobody would have come from Calgary, Vancouver, toronto? And that all those American, Norwegian, Korean, German, etc., etc. etc. we see all the timein the Vancouver stands would have stayed away of the Games had been held in Quebec City? Excuse me while I laugh.

And another point: how are English and French helping the Norwegian, Korean, German, etc. unless they're among the elites of their society who know the language, in which case they could pay for their own interpretation.

[dizzy]

Which of course would include anyone who disagrees with you. But what the hell, being politically correct Canadians we will do everything 50/50 thereby assuring that no matter which end of the country we are in, 80% of the people in the stands won't understand 50% of the program.

LOL! Still, it's not that hard to learn a second language. I wish more Canadians would make the effort (and that the school system made it a more automatic experience).

[Smallc]

Where do we stop?

Since this was an event that involved the federal government of Canada as a major contributor, the two official languages of Canada would have been acceptable. That's what was used (along with local aboriginal languages). There is some complaint (with, according to the Government of Canada, some merit) that not enough French was present. I don't think this needs to be turned into something that it isn't. There's no harm done by pointing out a problem and trying to make sure the problem doesn't happen in the future.

[Machjo]

Since this was an event that involved the federal government of Canada as a major contributor, the two official languages of Canada would have been acceptable. That's what was used (along with local aboriginal languages). There is some complaint (with, according to the Government of Canada, some merit) that not enough French was present. I don't think this needs to be turned into something that it isn't. There's no harm done by pointing out a problem and trying to make sure the problem doesn't happen in the future.

I fully agree that as long as there is federal government funding, it makes sense to provide them bilingually. I was simply presenting an alternative option whereby if the federal government weren't involved, then we could leave it at the local language and that would save some money. I guess the bottom line is that the federal government should never have funded the games to begin with.

[Smallc]

I was simply presenting an alternative option whereby if the federal government weren't involved, then we could leave it at the local language and that would save some money.

And that's exactly what would happen. That isn't the case here, and I disagree that the federal government shouldn't have taken part in this. These are, in order, Vancouver's, British Columbia's, and Canada's games. They have brought the country out to celebrate, even if we aren't getting the medal count first thought. This kind of thing is good for the soul of a country.

[Machjo]

And that's exactly what would happen. That isn't the case here, and I disagree that the federal government shouldn't have taken part in this. These are, in order, Vancouver's, British Columbia's, and Canada's games. They have brought the country out to celebrate, even if we aren't getting the medal count first thought. This kind of thing is good for the soul of a country.

On that front I do agree with you that as long as the federal Government is financing the games, then French and English ought to be included.

[CANADIEN]

So are you suggesting the games ought to be held in English, Norwegian, Korean, German, etc. etc. etc. too?

Nope. I was making fun of your statement that Olympic Games in Quebec City would mostly attract only people from French-speaking countries.

Seldom deos a monolingual dare to venture outside his language area. The same would apply with the Olympics in Quebec City.

Plenty of tourists (or in this case, sportsfans) travel all the time to areas of the world that speak langauges they know little about, if anything. Some of the visitors to Vancouver right now probably know just enough English to ask for directions and order food. Do you think there was a rush to Mandarin classes before the 2008 Olympics?

Edited February 21, 2010 by CANADIEN

[Wilber]

Actually no. But if you feel targeted, that's your problem, not mine.

Not my problem, I'm not the one who is complaining.

[Wilber]

Now that's a consistent position, and I respect that. I too agree that if the games had been held in Quebec city, providing English interpretation would have been a waste of money. Most attendees would likely come from French-speaking countries anyway, and any TV coverage would likely be either dubbed if it's live, or maybe subtitled otherwise.

Likewise, as far as the Vancouver Olympics are concerned, if it weren't for French being one of the IOC's official languages, I could certainly agree with English-only Olympics in Vancouver.

There are over six hundred thousand Chinese and South Asian Canadians living within commuting distance of Vancouver. Their cultures weren't represented at all, yet I haven't heard any complaining from them. It is always from the same old culprits in this country. Anglo's, French and First Nations.

Perhaps I am just realistic enough to understand that this country is just to large and has become too diverse to represent everyone in a two hour show in a manner they feel entitled to.

[Machjo]

Nope. I was making fun of your statement that Olympic Games in Quebec City would mostly attract only people from French-speaking countries.

Of course it would. If the Olympics were held only in French, then it wouldn't be as pleasant for the others unless they knew French. I still don't see how your comment about other nationalities related though, as it was quite presumptuous to assume that the whole world knows English, and that somehow English would solve all of their language problems.

Edited February 21, 2010 by Machjo

[Machjo]

Plenty of tourists (or in this case, sportsfans) travel all the time to areas of the world that speak langauges they know little about, if anything. Some of the visitors to Vancouver right now probably know just enough English to ask for directions and order food. Do you think there was a rush to Mandarin classes before the 2008 Olympics?

Fair enough. So in that case, why would we need to spend money on English if the local language is French anyway. Even if English were provided at the Olympics, except for the Old City, the hotels of which would likely be exorbitantly expensive, most of Quebec city is monolingual French speaking unless you count the ability to give directions in very broken English as bilingual. Add to that that if we required the Quebec City Olympics to function in English, there'd even be the risk that whatever English-language resources available in the city would get sucked up by the Olympics, thus leaving the rest of the city even more monolingual than usual!

The same likely applies to the Vancouver Olympics with French by the way. Many French-speaking Vancouverites who would otherwise provide services in French in the local economy, ended up serving in the Vancouver games, leaving the rest of the city even less Francophone than usual. If they can't communicate in restaurants, hotels, etc., why would they care so much about less important venues like games? So looking at it practically, having the games in one language, the local language, would save a lot of money without causing much hardship for people from around the world.

[Machjo]

There are over six hundred thousand Chinese and South Asian Canadians living within commuting distance of Vancouver. Their cultures weren't represented at all, yet I haven't heard any complaining from them. It is always from the same old culprits in this country. Anglo's, French and First Nations.

Perhaps I am just realistic enough to understand that this country is just to large and has become too diverse to represent everyone in a two hour show in a manner they feel entitled to.

You bring up a good point here. Canada is way too diverse to squeeze all of its cultures into a two-hour show. Just Vancouver's and the West Coast's cultures are quite diverse enough. West Coast Salish could have gotten more airtime for example. Likewise, in the Quebec City Olympics, Innu Wendat could get more exposure too for example.

[CANADIEN]

Of course it would. If the Olympics were held only in French, then it wouldn't be as pleasant for the others unless they knew French. I still don't see how your comment about other nationalities related though, as it was quite presumptuous to assume that the whole world knows English, and that somehow English would solve all of their language problems.

Did I say the whole world knows English? No. I pointed out that people from all over the world have come to Vancouver, and that many of them may have a limited knowledge of the English language. Poeple will go to that type of event regardless of where it is, and what they know (or do not know) of the local language. face it, your assumption that only people from places where French is spoken would go to an Olympics in Quebec City is off the map.

I have been to places whose local languages I didn't know apart from some very basics. I know plenty of people who have done the same. Do you think Canadians flock in Cuba, Mexico or Santo Domingo in the Winter because they know Spanish?

Edited February 21, 2010 by CANADIEN

[Machjo]

Plenty of tourists (or in this case, sportsfans) travel all the time to areas of the world that speak langauges they know little about, if anything. Some of the visitors to Vancouver right now probably know just enough English to ask for directions and order food. Do you think there was a rush to Mandarin classes before the 2008 Olympics?

Before the 2008 Olympics, the Beijing government went on an all-out campaign to have all of its residents learn English. In order for a taxi driver to be allowed to work during the Olympic period, for instance, he'd have to pass a basic English test targeting the specific conversational language he'd be most likely to need for the tasks related to his job. The same applied to man other service industries too. I was in Beijing a few months before the Beijing Olympics, and English was absolutely everywhere. Bear in mind though that most of them had just enough English to perform the most basic tasks of their job and could certainly not perform anywhere beyond that. I'd tested a few just for fun, but in the end, speaking in Chinese was much more pleasant since my Mandarin was better than their English.

And since the Olympics, Beijing has been suffering from an English hangover so to speak. As it turns out, many residents had complained that their English was still not sufficient enough even after all that effort. Also, as it turned out, Beijing was not prepared for the onslaught of visitors who knew neither English nor Chinese, causing even more frustration as taxi drivers and others struggled to understand their guests' 'English', often thinking it was just another accent. This was due in part to the excess emphasis in the Beijing media on English prior to the Olympics, resulting in many assuming that all at the games must necessarily know English, and so not taking the time to actually listen to their guest to realize they weren't speaking English. My guess is, under normal circumstances, if left to themselves, they could have figured out it wasn't English that their guest was speaking. But because of all the media buzz around English, it was as if they'd suspend disbelief and insist it must be some kind of English and keep trying to communicate with the guest in English when they could have saved everyone some hassles by finding other means to communicate, like the phrase books many would likely have had on them anyway.

I myself had experienced this suspension of belief on a few occasions. In one notable instance, though this was a few years before the Olympics (I've traveled a few times to China and around China). I was having a conversation with a friend when a stranger walked up to me to practice his English. Of course he spoke to me in English, I understood, and answered him in the same language I was speaking with my friend, out of respect for my friend so as to keep him in the conversation since he did not know English. My friend would then interpret into Chinese. The conversation went on for about one minute before the student finally clued in that I could understand him, but he could not understand me, but that my friend could. He finally interrupted my friend and asked him in Chinese why my friend could understand me, but he couldn't. (Now interestingly enough, many monolingual Chinese could usually figure out very quickly that I wasn't speaking English, as some had asked me on occasion what language I was speaking. They could figure it out by the pronunciation of the language. Yet this person, possessing at least a basic level of fluency in English, though with some obvious limitations, seemed to have not even considered that possibility).

Though I could have interrupted in Chinese myself, I was starting to find this to be amusing. In fact, I could see a smirk on my friend's face too, as it was obvious that he was amused by the situation too. So my friend answered him saying that I was speaking 世界语 (the Chinese word for Esperanto, translated literally as 'world language'). Then things really became amusing. The stranger, not familiar with the word in his own language, started saying that he spoke English too, thinking my friend was referring to English.

My friend then interrupted him saying that 世界语 was not English, as the smirk on both both our faces widened. The guy, totally perplexed, then went on to say that English was the international language, was it not? At that stage, my friend started berating him for learning English but not knowing his own language, because 世界语 is the name of another language.

Then the guy, totally perplexed, asked why I wasn't speaking English, to which I responded, again in Esperanto, that I did so to include my friend in the conversation. Finally, the guy, totally confused, simply walked away.

Similar though not quite as amusing situations had occurred before, sometimes with French, sometimes with English. On one occasion, I was speaking Chinese with two men, one who knew English and one who didn't. The Englih-speaker was speaking to me in English, I'd answered in Chinese, and he looked perplexed, looked at his friend saying he couldn't understand my English, and his friend, laughing at him, jumped into the conversation in Chinese. Once the other friend clued in, we had no more problems.

As you can see, it just makes things much less confusing if you just adopt one language and stick to it. So yes, I don't wee why the Beijing Olympics could not be held in Chinese only, and so the equivalent applies to any other Olmpics really.

[Machjo]

Did I say the whole world knows English? No. I pointed out that people from all over the world have come to Vancouver, and that many of them may have a limited knowledge of the English language. Poeple will go to that type of event regardless of where it is, and what they know (or do not know) of the local language. face it, your assumption that only people from places where French is spoken would go to an Olympics in Quebec City is off the map.

I have been to places whose local languages I didn't know apart from some very basics. I know plenty of people who have done the same. Do you think Canadians flock in Cuba, Mexico or Santo Domingo in the Winter because they know Spanish?

Most who travel to such areas stick to the beaten paths of resorts or major venues like the Olympics of course. But if they decide to do that, then they do so of their own choosing.

[CANADIEN]

Fair enough. So in that case, why would we need to spend money on English if the local language is French anyway.

Because we have two official languages in this country. You may find it bothersome out of a belief that money should trumps everything else, but it s a reflection of who are as a country (not a bilingua national, mind you, but one with two national lnaguages).

Edited February 21, 2010 by CANADIEN

[CANADIEN]

Most who travel to such areas stick to the beaten paths of resorts or major venues like the Olympics of course. But if they decide to do that, then they do so of their own choosing.

Exactly. The point is - plenty of people chosse to do it.

[Machjo]

Because we have two official languages in this country. You may find it bothersome out of a belief that money should trumps everything else, but it s a reflection of who are as a country (not a bilingua national, mind you, but one with two national lnaguages).

I certainly do not believe that money should trump everything else. However, the Olympics are not exactly a basic necessity. We should not be spending exorbitant amounts on translation for an unnecessary event while people sleep in the streets. It's a matter of priorities.

[Machjo]

Exactly. The point is - plenty of people chosse to do it.

It's their choice, and they put up with the consequences.

[CANADIEN]

It's their choice, and they put up with the consequences.

People who visit a foreign country have to expect that a lot of things may not work in their own language. Last time I checked, people travelling from Quebec City to Vancouver or vice-versa wersa are not travelling to another country, and they expect that at least the government of their country will be able to server them in both of our country's national languages.

[CANADIEN]

I certainly do not believe that money should trump everything else. However, the Olympics are not exactly a basic necessity. We should not be spending exorbitant amounts on translation for an unnecessary event while people sleep in the streets. It's a matter of priorities.

If we gonna have Olympics, we should be doing it right. As for the "while people sleep on the streets" routine, and that's what you're down to... I for one do not need to see anything more on your idea.

[Machjo]

People who visit a foreign country have to expect that a lot of things may not work in their own language. Last time I checked, people travelling from Quebec City to Vancouver or vice-versa wersa are not travelling to another country, and they expect that at least the government of their country will be able to server them in both of our country's national languages.

Taking that logic to its logical extreme, then assuming I didn't know French, would I be entitled to a government interpretor paid for by taxpayers to accompany me to Quebec City so I can shop around more comfortably in some Quebec suburb?

I'm sure you'll agree that that's not a necessity like education is for example. So if we make a distinction between essential services and non-essential, I'd classify the Olympics in the non-essential category along with tourism.

So where do you draw the line?

Again, as long as federal governmetn funding is involved, I do agree French services ought to be provided. i'm just talking in terms of ideal conditions where federal funding werent' invovled.