What in the world is going on with the OPP?

Argus · January 1, 2010

I have already written of my utter contempt for Julian Fantino, an arrogant, barely competent administrator who appears to grovel and crawl very well before McGuinty's demands that he create a "No law" zone around Caledonia. The way the OPP have allowed the violence and criminal behaviour of natives to flourish there is a disgrace to law enforcement in Canada, not to mention a disgrace to law - as he has ignored numerous court orders in the matter. The ongoing court case demonstrating the willingness of the OPP to ignore their duty to enforce the law makes it clear to anyone with a shred of honesty that McGuinty's interference in law enforcement is behind it all, and that Fantino's obedience to McGuinty's wishes flies in the face of his duty as the commisioner of the OPP.

Recently his swaggering contempt and bullying tactics have been making their way into the courts in greater numbers. In addition to the lawsuit against the OPP from local residents there is a murky legal hearing going on with regards to his abuse of his powers towards the OPP, including him being caught calling for the "execution" of a police officer, and punishing senior officers for keeping notes about his abusive language (punishment later overturned by the ministry). Fantino is accused of abuse of power and intimidating witnesses.

Nasty Fanino Battle Winds Through Courts

Now in another matter, an Ontario judge has just ordered a justice of the peace to lay a criminal charge against Fantino for threatening and intimidating the local council in Caledonia.

Fantino to face charge of threatening public officials

The question must be asked: Why is this man still in uniform? Why has he at the very least not been suspended?

The only answer appears to be that as a lickspittle toady McGuinty finds him handy to keep around, and will try to hold onto him until he can find someone with as little spine willing to continue to suspend the law whenever McGuinty finds that politically advantageous.

Shwa · January 1, 2010

Seeing how much effort you have put into trying to express your views, I take it that you are serious.

Caledonia and the lawless natives? That was started because some non-natives didn't follow the law in the first place, which has been more than amply pointed out several times before ad nauseum. Yet you persist.

If you want to clean up lawlessness in Ontario there are far bigger fish to fry than a little rough-housing on the outskirts of Calendonia. Why not inner city gangs that end up in murder, rape, violence and general public terror? Why not mafia or biker gang activities that end up in murder, rape, violence and general public terror? How about the pedophiles that kidnap, rape and murder little children? And you want Fantino to focus on what?

Caledonia and the lawless natives? Pffff...

msdogfood · January 1, 2010

Seeing how much effort you have put into trying to express your views, I take it that you are serious.

Caledonia and the lawless natives? That was started because some non-natives didn't follow the law in the first place, which has been more than amply pointed out several times before ad nauseum. Yet you persist.

If you want to clean up lawlessness in Ontario there are far bigger fish to fry than a little rough-housing on the outskirts of Calendonia. Why not inner city gangs that end up in murder, rape, violence and general public terror? Why not mafia or biker gang activities that end up in murder, rape, violence and general public terror? How about the pedophiles that kidnap, rape and murder little children? And you want Fantino to focus on what?

Caledonia and the lawless natives? Pffff...

http://pcneedtogo.blogspot.com/

sometimes the OPP are idiots

Edited January 1, 2010 by msdogfood

William Ashley · January 1, 2010

Why doesn't the RCMP step in then if the OPP doesn' they are both law enforcement agencies?

Isn't organized crime under the jurisdiction of the RCMP?

Or why don't people file charges with the courts anyone can file an information to a JP for an indictable offence under certain conditions

[edit] Information

Generally, criminal proceedings begin when an Information is sworn by an Informant before a Justice of the Peace.[9] An Information is put before the provincial court, which is generally where a defendant is first required to appear. Generally, the provincial court only has jurisdiction to proceed if there is a valid Information before the court.

The Information states what charges the Informant reasonably believes the defendant committed. It states the name of the defendant, the date and location of the offences, and the offences themselves. The Information is then used to record what transpires in court.

Although the Informant is usually a police officer, anyone is allowed to swear an Information. If the Informant is not a police officer, a hearing will take place first to determine if there is enough evidence to support the charges.

If the offence is a summary conviction offence (or a hybrid offence where the Crown elects to proceed by summary conviction), there is a limitation period of six months on the swearing of an Information.[10] There is no limitation period for indictable offences (or hybrid offences where the Crown elects to proceed by indictment).

Also Canadians are legally (dust off those law books like Harper) able to act as prosecution in a court case given leave to do so by the court. The crown attorneys office is not the sole means of proceeding with a criminal law court case in Canada

It is only because of a marginalized partisan justice system that Canadians right to justice has been shelved and limited under political controllers.

Edited January 1, 2010 by William Ashley

Bugs · January 2, 2010

Caledonia and the lawless natives? That was started because some non-natives didn't follow the law in the first place, which has been more than amply pointed out several times before ad nauseum. Yet you persist.

If you want to clean up lawlessness in Ontario there are far bigger fish to fry than a little rough-housing on the outskirts of Calendonia. Why not inner city gangs that end up in murder, rape, violence and general public terror? Why not mafia or biker gang activities that end up in murder, rape, violence and general public terror? How about the pedophiles that kidnap, rape and murder little children? And you want Fantino to focus on what?

Caledonia and the lawless natives? Pffff...

Shwa, it's too bad you don't know the first thing about what's going on in Caledonia before you start deciding this issue on the basis of your nasty racist stereotypes.

That was started because some non-natives didn't follow the law in the first place

I'll start my challenge right here, with that statement. No it wasn't.

It was started when natives invaded the Douglas Creek Estates. That land was previously owned by the Government of Canada. They certainly held valid title. Further, the development was cleared with the Six Nations Tribal Council, and an archeologists certified that land had never been used for funerals before the municipal government would issue the building permits. There was no claim on the land. The Bank examined the deal and financed the whole project.

The builder went to court, and obtained an injunction. The OPP, in fact, enforced the injunction in the middle of the night, catching the occupiers passing a bottle and a joint, and took possession of the property. The natives rounded up the Warriors Society, a bunch of thugs, many of them with US military training, and weapons, and the OPP ran away, like the bunch of $100,000+ lard-assed clerks that they actually are.

They went back to the judge, of course, and he issued another injunction. The coppers simply ignored it. Later, he issued an order to appear to explain why the injunction wasn't enforced. They sent a flak-catcher. The judge got testy, and demanded an explanation. By this time, McGuinty and Fantino had entered the picture, and the former head of the OPP -- get this, a native woman!!!! -- and they must have simply told the judge to go pound salt.

Five or six weeks after this incident, the builder was informed by his insurance company that they would not accept liability for the losses. He flipped. The Bank flips. Why the fuck not, they scream. The insurance companies pull out the law book, and show very clearly that while they would accept liability for losses due to fire, acts of nature, etc. but not for losses coming from armed insurrections.

That " ... little rough-housing on the outskirts of Caledonia ... " fits the legal definition of a 'armed insurrection'. That simple.

When it became clear to them what they faced, McGuinty started using the money of the people of Ontario, quickly, to keep it a secret, to hide the embarrassment that should naturally accrue to such an idiotic bit of mismanagement ... (At the time, they were persecuting Mike Harris about Ipperwash.) Can you believe it? They bought out the developer. They paid off the bank.

And they withdrew police protection from the people of Caledonia.

Those are the legal facts. Show me the fingerprints of who you think did this.

===============================

More evidence of the continuing armed insurrection that Dalton McGuinty tolerates in Ontario:

http://beta.brantfordexpositor.ca/ArticleDisplay.aspx?archive=true&e=1013760

http://www.brantnews.com/news.cfm?page=news&section=read&articleId=6385

http://beta.standard-freeholder.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=2239452&

Edited January 2, 2010 by Bugs

g_bambino · January 2, 2010

Caledonia and the lawless natives? Pffff...

First post in and you're already diverting the topic away off to your pet cause. You sure are special.

g_bambino · January 2, 2010

Why doesn't the RCMP step in then if the OPP doesn' they are both law enforcement agencies?

The RCMP could only interfere if the Ontario Crown-in-Council requested that it do so. Given that the Premier feels the OPP is operating sufficiently, it seems highly unlikely he'd ever advise intervention from the federal police force. I'm not entirely sure, but such a move might also first require legislative changes.

Smallc · January 2, 2010

I read of one case where in the past, the RCMP had won a contract to do police work in one area of Ontario instead of the OPP. According to what I had read (and I can't find it anymore), they had to be sworn in a special constables, because the RCMP did not have the power to enforce certain parts of the law in Ontario (the Highway Traffic Act for example).

charter.rights · January 2, 2010

...who appears to grovel and crawl very well before McGuinty's demands that he create a "No law" zone around Caledonia.

The way the OPP have allowed the violence and criminal behaviour of natives to flourish....

...as he has ignored numerous court orders in the matter.

...demonstrating the willingness of the OPP to ignore their duty to enforce the law...

...that McGuinty's interference in law enforcement is behind it all

...and that Fantino's obedience to McGuinty's wishes flies in the face of his duty as the commisioner of the OPP.

...there is a murky legal hearing going on with regards to his abuse of his powers

Fantino is accused of abuse of power and intimidating witnesses.

The only answer appears to be that as a lickspittle toady McGuinty finds him handy to keep around, and will try to hold onto him until he can find someone with as little spine willing to continue to suspend the law whenever McGuinty finds that politically advantageous.

Fantastic Argus! You hit the record for the most bullshit in a single post!

When you come up with facts and cites then we will discuss your erroneous opinions further. But substituting bullshit opinion for fact based on 2 media references has to be in the running for the most stupid OP on this forum.

charter.rights · January 2, 2010

It was started when natives invaded the Douglas Creek Estates.

Incorrect. It started when Henco Developments moved bulldozers on to the site.

Six Nations had been on persistent and official notice with the County of Haldimand for two years prior, that they objected to the development because of a land claim they had filed over the Plank Road.

Under "The Law" that would have been the trigger for Haldimand County, the province and the federal government to enter into formal consultation with Six Nations. Under "The Law" development can not occur without first entering into negotiation over their issues, and reconciliation of the concerns. Under "The Law" Henco Developments, Haldimand County, the Province of Ontario and the Government of Canada are all responsible for the actions of protest and Six Nations is totally withing their right of proprietary estopple to stop construction, occupy the site and refuse entry to any one.

Under "The Law" the ex parte injunction originally approved by Justice David Marshall was illegal and it was eventually repealled with a stern warning from the appeal court.

Under the guidelines set out by Justice Linden in the Ipperwash Inquiry, the OPP violated their own code of conduct by entering upon the lands and attempting to remove protesters by force.

Under "The Law" the OPP are not required to enforce injunctions, nor do courts have authority to order police enforcement to carry out their wishes.

The peaceful occupation of the DCE in Caledonia was converted momentarily by the illegal actions of a number of government parties. Had the governments complied with the law in the first place it is unlikely we would even care about where Caledonia is, today.

g_bambino · January 2, 2010

Incorrect. It started when Henco Developments moved bulldozers on to the site.

Oh, Bugs, I really advise you not to take this bait laid out by these forums' two most prolifent apologists for all things First Nations. All you'll get is a never ending, unwavering stream of verbal spew that uses racism, conspiracy theories, and shallow derision as an excuse to weep for the plight of the natives. Really, neither has any interest in your argument or your evidence; you'll be used as a tool on which they can practice their rehearsed outrage.

Argus · January 2, 2010

Fantastic Argus! You hit the record for the most bullshit in a single post!

A recitation of what is generally considered unacceptable behaviour from an OPP commisioner who is now being accused in three separate court cases of not doing his job strikes me as something less than bullshit notwithstanding the fact that someone whose entire cranial cavity is emerged in the substance 24/7 might find that difficult to discern.

When you come up with facts and cites then we will discuss your erroneous opinions further. But substituting bullshit opinion for fact based on 2 media references has to be in the running for the most stupid OP on this forum.

You mean when I come up with facts and cites you like? Sorry, but my sanity is still quite strong. When I go over the brink I can start babbbling and gibbering like a moronic chimp and will then, no doubt bask in your approval.

Argus · January 2, 2010

The peaceful occupation of the DCE in Caledonia was

A "peaceful occupation" happens when some big guys bully their way in and then use physical force to intimidate those with the lawful right to be there, right? Sorry, goober, but any use of force is by definition "violence". If you're standing in someone's path and physically refusing to leave that's violence and under the law the police have the absolute right and duty to respond with whatever level of violence is required to affect your arrest up to and including killing you and everyone with you.

That is what ought to have been done in Caledonia.

Wilber · January 2, 2010

Interesting. In BC, the RCMP's public image is at an all time low and many are calling for a provincial force. The reason is that there is no local accountability and the hierarchy in Ottawa has a terrible history of stone walling when it comes to local concerns about their actions. At least Ontarians can hold their police commissioner and Premier accountable for the actions of their police force. In RCMP jurisdictions, that is almost impossible. This is not a knock on front line RCMP officers, the great majority try to do good work and I feel bad for them. As usual, the rot starts at the top.

charter.rights · January 2, 2010

A "peaceful occupation" happens when some big guys bully their way in and then use physical force to intimidate those with the lawful right to be there, right? Sorry, goober, but any use of force is by definition "violence". If you're standing in someone's path and physically refusing to leave that's violence and under the law the police have the absolute right and duty to respond with whatever level of violence is required to affect your arrest up to and including killing you and everyone with you.

That is what ought to have been done in Caledonia.

As usual you have "The Facts" wrong....just like you have "The Law" wrong.

The occupation of DCE was made by 2 women, some children and a few old people. They read a declaration to the workers on the site and asked them to remove their equipment. They told them that construction was not allowed to continue.

Now if the workers wanted to continue there might have been a few more people show up in support, blocking their way. But there wasn't any opposition by the contractors to the declaration and they left of their own free will, without incident.

As mentioned earlier, the Six Nations exercised proprietary estopple - under "The Law" - which allowes them to occupy and prevent further damages against their claim on any plot under land claims - whether it has been filed or not.

From the Ipperwash Report:

The roots of aboriginal protests typically originate in the failure

by mainstream society to address treaty and Aboriginal rights

over decades, if not centuries. Moreover, Aboriginal rights are

protected in the Constitution. On this basis alone, Aboriginal

occupations and protests are qualitatively different than most

other kinds of single issue, one-time protests or occupations.

Under "The Law" the police are not required to enforce "civil" injunctions but are merely there to keep the peace. It does not become a criminal matter for police until the protesters are declared in criminal contempt of the injunction AND the defendants have had an opportunity to plead their case. The original injunction was issued ex-parte (without representation) so the Six Nations protesters were not allowed to present a defense. However, when the injunction and the contempt charges were appealed, the appeal court threw it out as being "invalid" and in their decision they criticized Justice David Marshal for overstepping his legal boundaries. Since then the courts have further clarified "The Law" to mean (in Frontenac Ventures v. Ardoc Algonquin):

...where constitutionally protected aboriginal rights are asserted,

injunctions sought by private parties to protect their interests

should only be granted where every effort has been made by the

court to encourage consultation, negotiation, accommodation and

reconciliation among the competing rights and interests.

So at the end of the day the occupation was caused by the failure of the Courts, the developer, the County, The Province and the Federal Government by refusing to comply with "The Law" and instead ignoring protected aboriginal claims (and rights).

_________________________________________________________________________

As far as your belief there are three pending case that support your wild opinion, think again.

In the Brown - Chatwell v. Attorney General an out of court settlement has rendered that case completed, without fault or success. In fact what the public doesn't know is that Brown-Chatwell initiated the settlement taking less that 10% of their claim in return for not going further. Disclosure by the Crown and the OPP made it clear they would be crucified if their took it any farther.

In the case where Fantino had a number of Officers on discreditable conduct charges, all charges were dropped just before Christmas. Those are two "non-cases" that don't exist in support of your bullshit.

The third case is where Gary McHale - the Caledonia mischief maker as he was labeled by Fantino - has applied to lay private charges against the OPP and Fantino. Since it is not yet before the courts it too does not support the bullshit you present as fact. Although the JP has been ordered to certify the charges it is highly unlikely that it will get beyond preliminary hearing stage.

So you are 3 for 3 on the bullshit meter and more is adding up every time you post.

Edited January 2, 2010 by charter.rights

Argus · January 2, 2010

I'm not going to engage in a debate over native rights or actions with someone who, at least on that topic, is basically insane.

William Ashley · January 2, 2010

The RCMP could only interfere if the Ontario Crown-in-Council requested that it do so. Given that the Premier feels the OPP is operating sufficiently, it seems highly unlikely he'd ever advise intervention from the federal police force. I'm not entirely sure, but such a move might also first require legislative changes.

You are nutz, since when is the RCMP not legally able to take on Organized Criminal Fronts like the Warrior Society?

http://www.dogwoodinitiative.org/media-centre/news-stories/letter_seeking_help_against_rumoured_rcmp_raid

Kindly, explain why crown-in-council is required to authorize the RCMP to combat violations of the criminal code conducted by organized criminal fronts?

If this is somethign deemed "an armed insurrection" you'd damn well better hope the RCMP and it's military support wings, and national security steped in.

Although I do think talking a situation out is always a better course of action if it exists and no sides have a loss.

Edited January 2, 2010 by William Ashley

charter.rights · January 3, 2010

You are nutz, since when is the RCMP not legally able to take on Organized Criminal Fronts like the Warrior Society?

http://www.dogwoodinitiative.org/media-centre/news-stories/letter_seeking_help_against_rumoured_rcmp_raid

Kindly, explain why crown-in-council is required to authorize the RCMP to combat violations of the criminal code conducted by organized criminal fronts?

If this is somethign deemed "an armed insurrection" you'd damn well better hope the RCMP and it's military support wings, and national security steped in.

Although I do think talking a situation out is always a better course of action if it exists and no sides have a loss.

The Warrior Society basically doesn't exist on the level of organized. It is a ghost and those who claim to belong are simple family men and women who declare they are there to defend their communities. Most like the militias of yesterday without formal training or organization who came together when needed.

The RCMP won't do anything about "the Warrior Society" because they don't exist. While they make good media hype there is no one who would be targeted as leaders (or followers). It is simply a game that the RCMP play while targeting individuals for their own nefarious reasons and then parading them over the news to make everyone think the RCMP is on top of the situation.

Bugs · January 3, 2010

Incorrect. It started when Henco Developments moved bulldozers on to the site.

Six Nations had been on persistent and official notice with the County of Haldimand for two years prior, that they objected to the development because of a land claim they had filed over the Plank Road.

Under "The Law" that would have been the trigger for Haldimand County, the province and the federal government to enter into formal consultation with Six Nations. Under "The Law" development can not occur without first entering into negotiation over their issues, and reconciliation of the concerns. Under "The Law" Henco Developments, Haldimand County, the Province of Ontario and the Government of Canada are all responsible for the actions of protest and Six Nations is totally withing their right of proprietary estopple to stop construction, occupy the site and refuse entry to any one.

Under "The Law" the ex parte injunction originally approved by Justice David Marshall was illegal and it was eventually repealled with a stern warning from the appeal court.

Under the guidelines set out by Justice Linden in the Ipperwash Inquiry, the OPP violated their own code of conduct by entering upon the lands and attempting to remove protesters by force.

Under "The Law" the OPP are not required to enforce injunctions, nor do courts have authority to order police enforcement to carry out their wishes.

The peaceful occupation of the DCE in Caledonia was converted momentarily by the illegal actions of a number of government parties. Had the governments complied with the law in the first place it is unlikely we would even care about where Caledonia is, today.

It's simply not true. There was no land claim registered on the land, or it couldn't have been sold by the Federal government. If the courts injunctions are optional, it means the courts have been demoted.

Besides, where do the Six Nations get to register land claims in the first place? They have never held aboriginal title to any land in Canada. They got their land from the Queen of England. They are the children of immigrants, like all the rest of us.

g_bambino · January 3, 2010

You are nutz.

Perhaps, but at least I know what I'm talking about. This is the stuff of basic Canadian civics; division of federal and provincial jurisdictions. Well, perhaps grade 9 studies are a bit too advanced for you.

g_bambino · January 3, 2010

They got their land from the Queen of England.

I know you probably didn't mean anything by it, but the careless and frequent blurting of that term "Queen of England" really irks me. Six Nations' land was granted to them by George III, King of the United Kingdom; the last Queen of England, Anne, died 77 years before the Haldimand Proclamation.

[c/e]

Edited January 3, 2010 by g_bambino

charter.rights · January 3, 2010

It's simply not true. There was no land claim registered on the land, or it couldn't have been sold by the Federal government. If the courts injunctions are optional, it means the courts have been demoted.

Besides, where do the Six Nations get to register land claims in the first place? They have never held aboriginal title to any land in Canada. They got their land from the Queen of England. They are the children of immigrants, like all the rest of us.

Wrong. The Plank Road claim was made in 1996 and continues in a court case that was held in abeyance while negotiation took place. Just in late fall last year, the Six Nations Council refiled the court case because negotiations have been purposely stalled by the federal government.

Caledonia and the DCE lands are totally within the Plank Road lease that is under dispute. As well Six Nations Band Council had repeatedly file notices of objection with the Haldimand County prior to the first construction equipment moving in and their complaints were ignored.

All of southern Ontario is Six Nations Territory that was certified by the Royal Proclamation 1763. The Haldimand Proclamation 1784 in which occupied 6 miles each side of the Grand River from its source to its mouth was not a land grand since the Crown had no authority over Six Nations land. Rather it was a guarantee under the the Silver Covenant Chain 1710 and the Royal Proclamation to prohibit settlers from encroaching upon their land.

The Mitchell Map 1757 outlines that the boundaries of Six Nations extend to the north by the Ottawa River above Nippissing to the junction of Lakes Huron and Michigan and south into New York and Pennsylvania. In 1700 Six Nations territory also included the Ohio, Michigan peninsula Indianna, Kentucky and bits and pieces of other territories that were surrender to Great Britain in the Nanfan Treaty 1701. However, the Nanfan Treaty also recognized that all of the southern Ontario lands remained in Six Nations hands.

So the problem for the Crown beyond the Haldimand tract requires them to prove that parts of southern Ontario were surrendered by Six Nations in accordance with the procedures set out in the Royal Proclamation 1763. I have scoured the records and no reord exists.

Southern Ontario still belongs under the jurisdiction of the Six Nation Confederacy.

Edited January 3, 2010 by charter.rights

Argus · January 3, 2010

The Warrior Society basically doesn't exist on the level of organized. It is a ghost and those who claim to belong are simple family men and women who declare they are there to defend their communities. .

The Warrior Society is a criminal organization which is principally involved with narcotics, smuggling, prostitution, gambling, and murder. It is, in essence, the native version of the Hells Angels - without bikes.

The Warrior Society

charter.rights · January 3, 2010

The Warrior Society is a criminal organization which is principally involved with narcotics, smuggling, prostitution, gambling, and murder. It is, in essence, the native version of the Hells Angels - without bikes.

The Warrior Society

I guess you didn't read the article....provided by the McKenzie Institute (as if they are involved in anything more than providing propaganda)

The Warrior Society does not exist. They are a ghost that people like you fear.

Shwa · January 4, 2010

Shwa, it's too bad you don't know the first thing about what's going on in Caledonia before you start deciding this issue on the basis of your nasty racist stereotypes.

Well, yes, yes I do know the first thing about Caledonia and the dispute. The information is all there - from both sides - so do your own research instead of being a mindless dupe. If you are capable.

I started deciding issue on the basis of "nasty racial stereotypes?"

No. There are bigger criminal fish to fry than some rough housing at a land dispute in the boonies of S. Ontario. If you can't recognize that then you are part of the problem and not part of the solution. "...armed insurrection." LOFL! :lol: :lol: :lol: