What in the world is going on with the OPP?

[Popeye]

I have been engaged in this since the beginning (and much before).

You are engaged. Good. What are you doing other than spinning your wheels?

You are pretty naive if you believe that this is all about Six Nations.

What "this" am I naive about? Land claims and land disputes are not owned by Six Nations alone. You are not Longhouse. In that realization I am not naive.

Our politicians and educators need the lessons as well. And getting heretics and mischief makers out of the way is a very important job.

I have no issue with governance being taken to task to find workable solutions for everyone. Getting heretics and mischief makers out of the way is a very important job for those who don't mind biding their time to allow the system of governance to work effectively to that end and remaining true to that belief system.

Changes are needed. I won't argue with you there.

Yep it is a threat (WAFI).....God kills don't you know? (As if....)

Just as I thought. Empty. Nonetheless, I shall call my 'private security' force to ensure that my family sleeps safely. (Not "as if", it is done.)

You are so so wrong. I haven't been to Six Nations in over 4 years. But I have had almost constant contact with many people from there who are "on the ground". So there you have it. We have never met. You are delusional if you believe otherwise. You are conflicted, dear.

Liar. Your own words show this if people are paying attention and listening to hear instead of listening for the sake of listening. How could you have possibly "interviewed" Elders from Six Nations or been paying attention to this issue which is not soley about "Six Nations" yet choose to believe the Haudensaunee belief structure without ever having set foot on Six Nations Territory in over 4 years?? Six Nations IS "on the ground". It's easy to find too. Drive to Caledonia and make a hard turn. It's about 600 feet up the road from there.

Edited January 23, 2010 by Popeye

[charter.rights]

You are engaged. Good. What are you doing other than spinning your wheels?

What "this" am I naive about? Land claims and land disputes are not owned by Six Nations alone. You are not Longhouse. In that realization I am not naive.

I have no issue with governance being taken to task to find workable solutions for everyone. Getting heretics and mischief makers out of the way is a very important job for those who don't mind biding their time to allow the system of governance to work effectively to that end and remaining true to that belief system.

Changes are needed. I won't argue with you there.

Just as I thought. Empty. Nonetheless, I shall call my 'private security' force to ensure that my family sleeps safely. (Not "as if", it is done.)

Liar.

Lunatic.

You are not Longhouse.

Don't be so sure. I am many things to many people and I take my responsibilities seriously.

[Popeye]

Lunatic.

Don't be so sure. I am many things to many people and I take my responsibilities seriously.

I made an edit to my post that you responded to in your comment.

Please review, and post again if it's worth your while.

Charter.rights, this isn't about you and me punching each other out on a keyboard for everyone to read on the www.

[charter.rights]

How could you have possibly "interviewed" Elders from Six Nations or been paying attention to this issue which is not soley about "Six Nations" yet choose to believe the Haudensaunee belief structure without ever having set foot on Six Nations Territory in over 4 years?

Very simple. I have met them (and continue to meet them) on other territories. (You do realize that there are more than just one Haudenosaunee Territories in North America?)

Most of the real work towards fixing the problems does not occur on the protest line, or even at Six Nations. It occurs off the territory where we engage people, correct their misconceptions about native people and their history, and challenge their racist policies. That isn't to say that I have been in the formal negotiations, but I have made contributions where I can - even educating Six Nations negotiators to stop repeated incorrect history.

Take the Nanfan Treaty 1701 for instance.... It did not , as Six Nations Council (and many protesters claim) give, or settle any land in what is now Ontario. In fact Nanfan only saw the surrender of the Michigan Peninsula and parts of Ohio, Pennsylvania etc. All that it did with respect to the Ontario lands was to get the British to recognize that lands south of the Ottawa River were Six Nations territory. Those who perpetuate that Nanfan gave Six Nations "perpetual hunting and fishing rights" actually hurt the claims for the Haldimand Tract. Those who believe that the British "purchased" the tract from the Mississauga are wrong - there was no need for the British to purchase Six Nations land to give to Six Nations.

And no, I have not been on Six Nations territory, for more than 4 years....probably 6. There is far more work to do to get governments to comply with their own laws, than sitting around smokey fires in lawn chairs drinking coffee. Protesters do their protests and advocates, advocate for compliance with the law. That's what I do. If I am needed at a protest then I am there. But Six Nations have been cpable of handling their own. Others are not so lucky.....

[Popeye]

Very simple. I have met them (and continue to meet them) on other territories.

Good on you. I meet Haudenosaunee on and off their "assigned" territories as well.

(You do realize that there are more than just one Haudenosaunee Territories in North America?)

Of course I do. The Longhouse is not a sole/soul place found just SW of Caledonia. If you are asking of the Mohawk, there are other assigned reserves particular to what you may be referring to. Have you ever heard of the 'Six Nations of Tyendinaga' or the 'Six Nations of Kanesetake'?

Most of the real work towards fixing the problems does not occur on the protest line, or even at Six Nations.

I agree with you.

It occurs off the territory where we engage people, correct their misconceptions about native people and their history

Engagement occurs on and off territory. History is not something that is written just yesterday, it is understanding the whole for/of everyone involved and taking the time to listen to hear to garner understanding BEFORE speaking from any perspective. These are misperceptions that you are speaking of regarding native peoples and their history, not misconceptions.

There is nothing worse than watching people act out of listening for the sake of listening because nobody ever told them to 'stop!'.

, and challenge their racist policies.

Who's racist policies? Race is only an issue for those who do not recognize people as human beings. We all come from and live on the same planet. Anyone who would like to argue that point with me is free to do so in efforts to prove me wrong.

That isn't to say that I have been in the formal negotiations, but I have made contributions where I can - even educating Six Nations negotiators to stop repeated incorrect history.

Many people have contributed for their part. A few contribute in "formal negotiations" while a cast of thousands contribute informally.

Take the Nanfan Treaty 1701 for instance.... It did not , as Six Nations Council (and many protesters claim) give, or settle any land in what is now Ontario. In fact Nanfan only saw the surrender of the Michigan Peninsula and parts of Ohio, Pennsylvania etc. All that it did with respect to the Ontario lands was to get the British to recognize that lands south of the Ottawa River were Six Nations territory. Those who perpetuate that Nanfan gave Six Nations "perpetual hunting and fishing rights" actually hurt the claims for the Haldimand Tract. Those who believe that the British "purchased" the tract from the Mississauga are wrong - there was no need for the British to purchase Six Nations land to give to Six Nations.

Some from Six Nations will tell you that "the Mississaugas were given a place to stay temporarily on Six Nations land and never left". That quote is from a professor at Mohawk College Campus in Brantford, yet the Mississauga are inking the settlement with the Crown to resolve their First Nations land claims...Toronto, Ontario should breathe a collective sigh of relief.

These debates and bantering over current day understanding of 'way back when' by individuals (myself included) need to find understanding in the dynamics and difference between THAT time and the here and now for everyone to move forward respectfully and respectively. Nobody is going to go anywhere no matter what. The sooner people accept that the past cannot be undone, the better. I don't say that in measure to belittle anyone, but this is "the new normal".

And no, I have not been on Six Nations territory, for more than 4 years....probably 6.

Then you have not set foot in this area of contention since before it became cannon fodder for just about anyone who dared speak of it who actually lived/lives with it. Then you are not the person who posted on many forums relating to Caledonia and Six Nations using the moniker "charterrights" that I have met numerous times in Caledonia and Six Nations. Thank you for clarifying.

There is far more work to do to get governments to comply with their own laws, than sitting around smokey fires in lawn chairs drinking coffee. Protesters do their protests and advocates, advocate for compliance with the law. That's what I do. If I am needed at a protest then I am there. But Six Nations have been cpable of handling their own. Others are not so lucky.....

Which law are you advocating for that would meet with "compliance" by any standard for any person? The last time I checked, being stupid wasn't against any laws of either the Crown or the Haudenosaunee. From what I have witnessed first hand, I wish it was.

Wisdom, Love, Respect, Bravery, Honesty, Humility, Truth.

[charter.rights]

Some from Six Nations will tell you that "the Mississaugas were given a place to stay temporarily on Six Nations land and never left". That quote is from a professor at Mohawk College Campus in Brantford, yet the Mississauga are inking the settlement with the Crown to resolve their First Nations land claims...Toronto, Ontario should breathe a collective sigh of relief.

That is the way British history is recorded. In 1656 at Taiaigon (present day Humber River), the Mississauga were asked by Six Nations to look after the land while they attended other matters in the valley. Although there is no date, I believe this coincides with the Two spoons One Bowl Treaty.

However, from what I have been told, Haudenosaunee law recognizes possession of land and territory as an individual right, but that it does not exclude the overall collective right of the Haudenosaunee over their entire territory. Thus when the Mississauga moved into southern Ontario, they because caretakers - but not owners - of the land. The fact that the government is making deals with them is a red herring. British record and Canadian history clearly establish that Six Nations still holds underlying title - something they cannot escape from.

Nobody is going to go anywhere no matter what. The sooner people accept that the past cannot be undone, the better.

This becomes the starting point for negotiations. As above the settlers moved into this wilderness under Haudenosaunee law, not British law. The British have successfully asserted themselves over the settlers but not over the land and so any negotiation must recognize that these facts cannot be changed or undone except through negotiations, with the government starting at a deficit.

Then you have not set foot in this area of contention since before it became cannon fodder for just about anyone who dared speak of it who actually lived/lives with it. Then you are not the person who posted on many forums relating to Caledonia and Six Nations using the moniker "charterrights" that I have met numerous times in Caledonia and Six Nations. Thank you for clarifying.

No I am not.

Which law are you advocating for that would meet with "compliance" by any standard for any person? The last time I checked, being stupid wasn't against any laws of either the Crown or the Haudenosaunee. From what I have witnessed first hand, I wish it was.

The British laws did not start and stop with the Royal Proclamation 1763. All laws between First Nations and the British are subject to and follow the Silver Covenant Chain and Treaty of Peace Goodwill and Friendship 1710. The Royal Proclamation 1763 was the implementation of that Treaty. The the Quebec Act 1774, Haldimand Proclamation 1784...even the Indian Act were created to protect native rights from the cheating and manipulation that the British subjects were pulling over some native people. The foregoing actually sought to recognize and protect the very land that Six Nation sits upon. Yet those laws and proclamation have deliberately been misread, misinterpreted and fraudulently applied to the detriment of Six Nations.

Wisdom, Love, Respect, Bravery, Honesty, Humility, Truth.

Yes, the Anishnabe 7 Grandfather teaching. I have been told by many of your Elders that part of the problem in their territories is that people try to substitute other Nations teachings for their own. You failed the 1st test.

[Wild Bill]

This is a link from the Sympatico home page:

http://news.sympatico.cbc.ca/abc/Local/ON/ContentPosting?isfa=1&feedname=CBC_LOCALNEWS&date=true&newsitemid=to-fantino-mchale-opp-caledonia-protest

"OPP Commissioner Julian Fantino encouraged his officers to lay charges against a protester at Caledonia, Ont., in 2007, before there was any evidence the man had committed a crime, according to emails made public this week.

"At some point McHale has to go," Fantino wrote Deputy Commissioner Chris Lewis, a half hour after a protest began on Dec. 1, 2007, referring to Gary McHale of Richmond Hill, Ont., who was leading a campaign to hold the OPP accountable for its policing decisions."

"When a native woman attacked McHale during the Dec. 1 protest, claiming that he had assaulted her, the police were almost giddy in their email exchanges that they finally had what they wanted.

"There is a hidden gem here," officer Rick Barnum wrote to OPP Supt. Bob Goodall. "It appears on the ground the sentiment is that McHale may have pushed a female FN [First Nations] lady who was close to him."

Another officer reported to Barnum: "Gary McHale viciously beaten by [native leader Clyde Powless]. He appears hurt."

McHale went to hospital but Fantino, who was kept abreast of every action at the scene, was mistakenly told that McHale had been arrested. Fantino wrote to Goodall: "I want every avenue explored by which we now can bring McHale into court seeking a court order to prevent him from continuing his agenda of inciting people to violence in Caledonia."

The entire article is well worth the read. It would appear that Chief Fantino actually has little or no respect for applying the law fairly. It's obvious that he had already judged and convicted McHale in his own mind and was just looking to hang anything on him to get rid of him.

It's said that the true test of believing in equality under the law comes when you're dealing with someone you personally do not like.

If Fantino ever actually does appear in court it will be very interesting to follow the trial.

Qui custodiet ipsos custodes?

Edited February 3, 2010 by Wild Bill