Certain Peoples Enjoy Living Like Animals Over 5000 Year Period

[jbg]

Fast forward roughly 5600 years from the oral history (better known as the Old Testament) excerpted below. Now consider the very special things going on internally in places like Gaza, Saudi Arabia etc.

Excerpts from Genesis 18-19

[16] The men set out from there and looked down toward Sodom, Abraham walking with them to see them off. 17] Now the LORD had said, "Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do, 18] since Abraham is to become a great and populous nation and all the nations of the earth are 'to bless themselves by him? 19] For I have singled him out, that he may instruct his children and his posterity to keep the way of the LORD by doing what is just and right, in order that the LORD may bring about for Abraham what He has promised him."

20] Then the LORD said, "The outrage of Sodom and Gomorrah is so great, and their sin so grave! 21] I will go down to see whether they have acted altogether according to the outcry that has come to Me; if not, I will take note."

**************

Look, I have two daughters who have not known a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you may do to them as you please; but do not do anything to these men, since they have come under the shelter of my roof. " 9] But they said, "Stand back! The fellow," they said, "came here as an alien, and already he acts the ruler! Now we will deal worse with you than with them." And they pressed hard against the person of Lot, and moved forward to break the door. 10] But the men stretched out their hands and pulled Lot into the house with them, and shut the door. 11] And the people who were at the entrance of the house, young and old, they struck with blinding light.. so that they were helpless to, find the entrance.

12] Then the men said to Lot, "Whom else have you here? Sons-in-law, your sons and daughters, or anyone else that you have in the city-bring them out of the place. 13] For we are about to destroy this place; because the outcry against them before the LORD has become so great that the LORD has sent us to destroy it."

Apparently the Jebusites and Amalkites were little better. Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

[Guest TrueMetis]

You do know that "Oral History" is almost constantly wrong, right?

Edited November 8, 2009 by TrueMetis

[jbg]

You do know that "Oral History" is almost constantly wrong, right?

Are current accounts of the ME also wrong, with the tales of countries and entities in the area, other than one small country on the shores of the Meditteranean, being rife with corruption, savagery, prostitution and debauchery of every kind?

[Smallc]

In other words all Muslims are bad. All countries in the middle east are bad (except of the one that you consider to be English speaking...even if they don't spell with proper English.

I think you'll have to do better than that. Saying that Muslims are bad is fine, but what is the solution to the problems that you see?

Will it help if Israel stops building in the West Bank like they have promised over and over and over? Will it help if Palestinian and Israeli leadership actually sit down at a table and try to come to a solution instead of constantly playing deadly games? Will it help if the two sides stop shooting at eachother long enough to look across and realize that they're killing other human beings for a very small, very insignificant piece of land? Will it help if people from certain Muslim countries stop supporting terrorists and wishing for the destruction of Israel?

What will help solve this problem in which so many parties are complicit?

Oh, and the Bible is as good of an oral history as the story of the giant turtle carrying the world on its back.

Edited November 8, 2009 by Smallc

[Guest TrueMetis]

Oh, and the Bible is as good of an oral history as the story of the giant turtle carrying the world on its back.

But the Giant turtle story is much cooler.

Are current accounts of the ME also wrong, with the tales of countries and entities in the area, other than one small country on the shores of the Meditteranean, being rife with corruption, savagery, prostitution and debauchery of every kind?

I seriouslly doubt prostitution is allowed in the Middle East. Other than that yea some of the countries in the ME are like that, but using the bible to prove that is like me using a childrens book to prove animals can talk.

[Smallc]

But the Giant turtle story is much cooler.

Maybe the turtle saved the world from the flood ?

[jbg]

In other words all Muslims are bad. All countries in the middle east are bad (except of the one that you consider to be English speaking...even if they don't spell with proper English.

I did not use the word "Muslim" or "Arab" (except as a fragment of the country name "Saudi Arabia".

I think you'll have to do better than that. Saying that Muslims are bad is fine, but what is the solution to the problems that you see?

Will it help if Israel stops building in the West Bank like they have promised over and over and over? Will it help if Palestinian and Israeli leadership actually sit down at a table and try to come to a solution instead of constantly playing deadly games? Will it help if the two sides stop shooting at eachother long enough to look across and realize that they're killing other human beings for a very small, very insignificant piece of land? Will it help if people from certain Muslim countries stop supporting terrorists and wishing for the destruction of Israel?

What will help solve this problem in which so many parties are complicit?

I'm not sure that a problem over 5600 years old is soluble. There is a certain element in that area (and I do not tie it to Islam necessarily since it long predates Islam) that enjoys the thrill of blood flowing from a human body.

Oh, and the Bible is as good of an oral history as the story of the giant turtle carrying the world on its back.

A fable is very different from an oral history as you well know.

[jbg]

I seriouslly doubt prostitution is allowed in the Middle East. Other than that yea some of the countries in the ME are like that, but using the bible to prove that is like me using a childrens book to prove animals can talk.

Link to story on issue (excerpts below)

**************

But with rising unemployment and falling incomes, there is also a darker side of life here that the authorities would prefer to keep hidden. Now Khaled was about to show me a glimpse of a shadowy Saudi underworld.

************

Hidden doorways

Khaled spoke to the driver and the taxi swung right into Makhzumi Street, in the south of the city. The shops were smaller here, more intimate. The neon signs had given way to yellow light bulbs.

Rubbish was piling up in the gutter. We stopped, and in one fluid movement Khaled was out of the taxi and off down a tiny alleyway. I followed him, stumbling in the dark on a breeze block left lying on the path.

Through a labyrinth of backstreets we twisted and turned until I lost all sense of where I was. Our feet fell softly on the sand, our hushed voices bounced off walls daubed in Arabic graffiti.

From the shadow of hidden doorways, veiled women detached themselves and drifted up to us, whispering words I couldn't follow. "Prostitutes", said Khaled, "from Nigeria".

"They come here for the pilgrimage, then they stay on."

We separated, but a man began following me, stopping when I did, and pretending to study his shoelace

We pressed on. Khaled's face was sweating now, he was nearing his goal. We emerged at a crossroads and he spotted his contact - a wiry Yemeni with a popstar's hairstyle.

They ducked into the shadows to do business while I watched from a corner shop. I spotted the look-outs, the men on alert for approaching police. There was a tough-looking Egyptian body-builder and a diminutive Indian with shifty eyes.

***********

[/indnet]

[Smallc]

A fable is very different from an oral history as you well know.

The bible is part of one creation myth. The turtle is part of another.

[jbg]

The bible is part of one creation myth. The turtle is part of another.

No. A small part of the Bible is the creation story. It is important to note that the Bible does not quantify the length of the earlier days. And I have yet to see a "scientific" explanation for the origin of life that doesn't involve some sort of a miracle.

That being said I am not a creationist. I have an open mind on the subject.

[Smallc]

I wouldn't call the big bang a miracle...although it's fine to interpret it that way. There is no mutual exclusivity between God and the way science believes things took place.

I still don't see the Bible as a accurate oral/written history though. The world didn't ever flood...although there was a flood. Some parts are correct I'm sure, but I'm equally sure that some of it is complete nonsense.

[jbg]

I still don't see the Bible as a accurate oral/written history though. The world didn't ever flood...although there was a flood. Some parts are correct I'm sure, but I'm equally sure that some of it is complete nonsense.

I would say it's likely that at some point the world known to the creators of the oral history did flood. And for them that would be a world flood.

In my area, on April 15, 2007 the entire Northeast was hit by 16+ cm. rain in one day. My area had around 20-25 cm. rain. If the known world were limited to the New York City area couldn't I reasonably conclude that the world flooded?

[Smallc]

Oh, there is scientific evidence of a flood near the same time. It is thought that at one time, there was a barrier between the Black Sea and the Aegean Sea. At around the approximate time of the bible flood, the barrier broke, quickly enlarging the Black Sea by a large amount. Beaches have actually been found near the bottom of the Black Sea.

All of that said, it doesn't mean that everything in the book is true.

[Michael Hardner]

jbg,

I find it ridiculous that you appear to be quoting the old testament as fact, and using it to damn the people of that region.

First of all, the anti-Muslim contingent has, in the past, tried to tie that religion's adherents to their holy book, saying that their inability to interpret that document or take it as anything but fundamental truth is at the cause of the 'problems'. And now, here you are doing the same thing.

Secondly, the story of Lot appears elsewhere in the bible as another story, showing the flaws with oral histories.

Also, your hero Lot slept with his daughters: does that reflect on his people ?

And prostitution exists pretty much everwhere in the world.

[jbg]

jbg,

I find it ridiculous that you appear to be quoting the old testament as fact, and using it to damn the people of that region.

I am comparing the people of the region, then and now. Are you saying that the people in the region, then or now (with the exception of the State of Israel) were or are civilized?

First of all, the anti-Muslim contingent has, in the past, tried to tie that religion's adherents to their holy book, saying that their inability to interpret that document or take it as anything but fundamental truth is at the cause of the 'problems'. And now, here you are doing the same thing.

I said nothing about Muslims or the Koran.

Secondly, the story of Lot appears elsewhere in the bible as another story, showing the flaws with oral histories.

Where?

Also, your hero Lot slept with his daughters: does that reflect on his people ?

Lot's descendants through his daughters were the Moabites. Want to try that one on for size?

And prostitution exists pretty much everwhere in the world.

The point is that the level of debauchery in that part of the world is truly exceptional.

[jbg]

Oh, there is scientific evidence of a flood near the same time. It is thought that at one time, there was a barrier between the Black Sea and the Aegean Sea. At around the approximate time of the bible flood, the barrier broke, quickly enlarging the Black Sea by a large amount. Beaches have actually been found near the bottom of the Black Sea.

All of that said, it doesn't mean that everything in the book is true.

That's actually quite interesting.

My pet view, since the affected area was more likely a bit southeast of there, in or around Mesopotamia, that the flood was more like the April 15, 2007 Nor'Easter than a salt-water to salt-water joinder of bodies of water. a 20 cm. storm in the midst of what is normally an area with light rainfall, tiggered say by an El Niño or La Niña, could be truly frightening.

Edited November 8, 2009 by jbg

[Michael Hardner]

jbg

I find it ridiculous that you appear to be quoting the old testament as fact, and using it to damn the people of that region.

I am comparing the people of the region, then and now. Are you saying that the people in the region, then or now (with the exception of the State of Israel) were or are civilized?

I will not engage in a thumbnail review of the civility of various peoples. Such an undertaking serves nothing but self-satisfaction and is impossible to be done based on facts.

Case in point, you're using a holy book (presumably one of your favourites) as a supporting document right out of the gate. Sorry, but subjective holy books aren't a basis for common understanding, and are no way to build a progressive discussion.

Why are you on this board if you intend to try to use the bible as a basis for discussion ? Don't you know that you will only be able to discuss things with people like you ?

View PostMichael Hardner, on 08 November 2009 - 11:13 AM, said:

First of all, the anti-Muslim contingent has, in the past, tried to tie that religion's adherents to their holy book, saying that their inability to interpret that document or take it as anything but fundamental truth is at the cause of the 'problems'. And now, here you are doing the same thing.

I said nothing about Muslims or the Koran.

My point stands. Basically, you have shown yourself to be subject to the same fatal flaws that the anti-Muslim posters attribute as being the root cause of Islam's 'problems'. ( Their quotes, not mine.)

View PostMichael Hardner, on 08 November 2009 - 11:13 AM, said:

Secondly, the story of Lot appears elsewhere in the bible as another story, showing the flaws with oral histories.

Where?

Judges 19:22. The story starts there and moves onward.

View PostMichael Hardner, on 08 November 2009 - 11:13 AM, said:

Also, your hero Lot slept with his daughters: does that reflect on his people ?

Lot's descendants through his daughters were the Moabites. Want to try that one on for size?

And what was Lot's heritage ?

[jbg]

jbg

Case in point, you're using a holy book (presumably one of your favourites) as a supporting document right out of the gate. Sorry, but subjective holy books aren't a basis for common understanding, and are no way to build a progressive discussion.

I'm using the "holy book" as an oral history.

Why are you on this board if you intend to try to use the bible as a basis for discussion ? Don't you know that you will only be able to discuss things with people like you ?

Because I feel like being on this board.

My point stands. Basically, you have shown yourself to be subject to the same fatal flaws that the anti-Muslim posters attribute as being the root cause of Islam's 'problems'. ( Their quotes, not mine.)

I am not anit-Muslim. Quite the contrary. I have great admiration for the accomplishments of the Muslim and Arab peoples.

Judges 19:22. The story starts there and moves onward.

I'll read it later, going to take my son to soccer. But having said that the Prophets are often commentary on the First Five. And the Talmud is commentary on both the First Five and the Prophets. And the Midrash commentary on the Talmud, Prophets and First Five. In our religion you don't get your head cut off for commenting on the various pieces of literature.

And what was Lot's heritage ?

Don't know.

[Guest TrueMetis]

I'm using the "holy book" as an oral history.

But you can't use it for an oral history because it is at least 90% bullshit. Which means even the parts that are right can't be accepted as so if all you're using is the bible. You have to have an independant source to verify your claims. What your doing is like having a scientist run one carbon dating test on one fossil, having it come up a few thousand, then using that as proof the earth is six thousand years old. The problems should be obvious if someone does that. (bonus points to anyone who figures out the main problem)

[Michael Hardner]

jbg,

I'm using the "holy book" as an oral history.

But the people you're debating aren't likely to accept that oral history as fact, so why bother ?

Because I feel like being on this board.

But why ? You can't really have a discussion with people if you're not going to use commonly-accepted points of fact, so why bother ? You're just talking about some religious beliefs towards no purpose other than to display them to others. Doesn't that represent vanity ?

I am not anit-Muslim. Quite the contrary. I have great admiration for the accomplishments of the Muslim and Arab peoples.

You have missed my point. Again, your form of reasoning is held up by anti-Muslims as evidence of their ignorance. Got me now ?

I'll read it later, going to take my son to soccer. But having said that the Prophets are often commentary on the First Five. And the Talmud is commentary on both the First Five and the Prophets. And the Midrash commentary on the Talmud, Prophets and First Five. In our religion you don't get your head cut off for commenting on the various pieces of literature.

Soccer ? On Sunday ? Instead of reading the Bible ?

Don't know.

Ok... well, as Abraham's newphew isn't he a Jew as well ?

[jbg]

But the people you're debating aren't likely to accept that oral history as fact, so why bother ?But why ? You can't really have a discussion with people if you're not going to use commonly-accepted points of fact, so why bother ? You're just talking about some religious beliefs towards no purpose other than to display them to others. Doesn't that represent vanity ?

Many of the statements in the Bible do archeologically verify. Are you saying that the people who wrote it were committing a Bernie Madoff-ian fraud?

You have missed my point. Again, your form of reasoning is held up by anti-Muslims as evidence of their ignorance. Got me now ?

I cannot prevent the misuse of my reasoning any more than the manufacturers of gasoline can prevent FN's from sniffing it.

Soccer ? On Sunday ? Instead of reading the Bible ?

I guess you don't get me. I'm not a Bible-thumper or even a particularly religious person. And I guess your ignorance is on display. Jews take Friday sundown to Saturday sundown as the Sabbath.

Ok... well, as Abraham's newphew isn't he a Jew as well ?

Don't know. Ask him.

[Michael Hardner]

jbg

Many of the statements in the Bible do archeologically verify. Are you saying that the people who wrote it were committing a Bernie Madoff-ian fraud?

Yes, and there was a flood in those days but does that validate the story of Noah's ark ? No. Not to me, and not to most reasonable people.

So how about answering my question ?

I cannot prevent the misuse of my reasoning any more than the manufacturers of gasoline can prevent FN's from sniffing it.

Dodge.

I guess you don't get me. I'm not a Bible-thumper or even a particularly religious person. And I guess your ignorance is on display. Jews take Friday sundown to Saturday sundown as the Sabbath.

Don't know. Ask him.

Sorry, I took your lack of familiarity with the old testament as evidence that you're Christian - my mistake and apologies.

Now, my main point remains unanswered: why come on here to debate based on your particular sects holy books ?

We can debate that shellfish is unhealthy to eat too. Would you really expect it to be a productive discussion if I weren't Jewish ?

[jbg]

We can debate that shellfish is unhealthy to eat too. Would you really expect it to be a productive discussion if I weren't Jewish ?

From one Jew to another, mazel tov.

And as for archeology, most of the cities referenced in the Bible seem to have existed, and some still have close to their Biblical names.

[Michael Hardner]

Thanks, jbg... and snakes talk too I take it ?

Until one offers me an apple, I don't think I should accept the book as a basis for reasoned arguments.

[jbg]

Thanks, jbg... and snakes talk too I take it ?

Until one offers me an apple, I don't think I should accept the book as a basis for reasoned arguments.

Rather than responding to the obvious substance of the post you're responding to the quotation from the Bible. Do you have sources to show that the people in the region were not brutal and violent?