Bill C-51 makes Canada a Police State, and followed by Bill C-52, C-6

[Michael Hardner]

bjre,

Then why Maple Leaf Meat issue still happen and causes even more death than melamine milk in china?

You get a point for this one. I didn't realize that MLM caused more deaths than China. Certainly more fuss was made in the Canadian media about China, which is understandable since Maple Leaf is such a major advertiser. ( I already showed on another thread how 680 News in Toronto pushed a story saying that Car Insurance rate increases weren't important, supporting THEIR advertisers. )

I would still say, though, that the example shows that all companies need to be watched.

You have made me realize, though, that there's a double standard there: most people would probably assume Maple Leaf Foods (not Maple Leaf Web) are safer than Chinese companies.

[Michael Hardner]

Jerry,

This Bill is complete nonsense. I simply cannot believe that we elected a government that would pass legislation to circumvent the rights of citizens. Each and every elected representative that supports this legislation should be removed from office at the next election. That is perhaps the only way democracy can or should function.

You're being hysterical aren't you ? A health inspection bill ? Every elected representative should be removed ?

[Shwa]

"I didn't realize that MLM caused more deaths than China."

Only half a point due to the restrictions and fallibility of reporting in China. And that still does not satisfy the perception that suspect business operators intentionally contaminated the infant formula with melamine. The actual damage from that poisoning is yet to be fully realized. Then again, did someone in Maple Leaf drop the ball on the lysteria poisoning? You know, someone said 'meh' before leaving Friday night...

All companies do need to be watched, which is a good point. However, there is more faith put into our companies because we have strict health inspections based on stricter standards, something that bjre objects to. So I don't think there is any double standard at all.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

You can call it what you want, but when the rights of the individual are eliminated in favour of the powers and authority of government then there is a very serious and detrimental issue. I am amazed that private citizens cannot see how very dangerous this sort of thing is.

Under normal circumstances this type of legislation would be subject to provisions of due process and I am unable to understand why in this instance such provisions have been removed. In my view this kind of thing is in violation of our constitutional rights.

[capricorn]

I don't know if they intentionally put lysteria in their meat or not although I guess you are right they did not do that intentionally.

bjre, listeria is present in many foods we eat and it is seldom fatal.

Listeria organisms are widespread in the world around us, including in soil, water and vegetation. Animals and humans can carry the bacterium without knowing it. Even farm animals that appear healthy can carry Listeria and contaminate food such as meats and dairy products. Plants and vegetables can also become contaminated with Listeria from the soil, water and manure-based fertilizers.

Listeria can be present in an assortment of foods we routinely eat, including prepared meats such as cold cuts and hot dogs, soft cheeses and fresh fruit and vegetables. Unpasteurized (raw) milk and foods made from unpasteurized milk may also contain Listeria.

Most of us can consume products containing Listeria monocytogenes without getting ill because our immune systems are strong enough to fight off infection. Healthy adults and children occasionally get infected with Listeria, but rarely become seriously ill.

http://www.listeriosis-listeriose.investig...amp;page=chap02

That can not change the fact that someone die because of the meat produced in their factory.

Nothing can change that fact. The important thing is that the company learned some very important lessons and took steps to rectify the problem. In fact, Maple Leaf products today are probably the safest to eat because of the precautions they are now taking to regain consumer confidence. I don't hesitate buying their products as I think they may be even safer than the products of other companies.

[Shwa]

"but when the rights of the individual are eliminated in favour of the powers and authority of government then there is a very serious and detrimental issue."

Yikes! We have to go back to Thomas Hobbes and his Leviathan to start that debate. Hmmmm... does anyone really ever want to go back to Hobbes? Rousseau maybe? Social contract discussion? Anyone?

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Anyone?

Didn't think so.

[M.Dancer]

The comparison between listeria and melamime is nonsense.

The 2008 Canadian listeriosis outbreak was a widespread outbreak of listeriosis in Canada linked to a Maple Leaf Foods plant in Toronto, Ontario. Twenty-two people died and there were 57 total confirmed cases.[2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Canadian...riosis_outbreak

By November 2008 China reported an estimated 300,000 victims,[1] six infants dying from kidney stones and other kidney damage, and a further 860 babies hospitalized

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chinese_..._on_the_company

As a rule, nothing that even goes near my mouth originates in China.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Ever wonder why apathy reigns sovereign in this land? Let it not be said that nobody saw this as a bad thing.

[Shwa]

Mine was not an apathetic response Jerry, if that is how I felt I would have... oh why bother, who cares anyways?

Just kidding. Expound on your thoughts. I don't think this sort of legislation is a violation of constitutional rights at all, but if you can point our how and where in the Consitution it is I am all ears. (or eyes in this case respecting the medium of couse)

[Michael Hardner]

Shwa,

All companies do need to be watched, which is a good point. However, there is more faith put into our companies because we have strict health inspections based on stricter standards, something that bjre objects to. So I don't think there is any double standard at all.

I'd still say there is a bit of one. I myself wouldn't have thought that there were more deaths reported by Maple Leaf's mistake than China's - even taking into account the differences in reporting methods. I'll throw bjre a bone on this one.

[Michael Hardner]

Jerry,

You can call it what you want, but when the rights of the individual are eliminated in favour of the powers and authority of government then there is a very serious and detrimental issue. I am amazed that private citizens cannot see how very dangerous this sort of thing is.

Under normal circumstances this type of legislation would be subject to provisions of due process and I am unable to understand why in this instance such provisions have been removed. In my view this kind of thing is in violation of our constitutional rights.

I think that would be first reading, second reading, committees, question period, and votes in the HofC.

You don't have a constitutional right to be poisoned, which is too bad in some cases.

[Michael Hardner]

DANCER !

As a rule, nothing that even goes near my mouth originates in China.

You're goading me now !

[ToadBrother]

The similarity of them is they both cause people death. And the police state legislation can not eliminate them, it cause other problems more harmful.

Uh, no. Unfortunately every large meat processing plant has some risk of bacterial infection. The most stringent regulations won't guarantee 100% safety.

The melamine case was something else entirely, a mixture of corruption and an extraordinary lack of concern for one's fellow human beings. You'll note that the second listeria was found in Maple Leaf's products, they were coming off the shelves, while in China there was just a lot of passing the buck.

[bjre]

Here are some people have opinions on this topic

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gd_LE-MZ-vA

[ToadBrother]

Start a separate thread about CAS, bjre

Most of the objections seem to center around what health inspectors do now: They enter private property without a warrant, then seize unapproved goods, without reimbursing you. This is exactly what we want an inspector to do, so I'm not concerned at all.

And prohibiting merchants from making false health claims is an acceptable limit on freedom of expression that works well for us in other areas related to health, such as drug claims and food ingredient declaration requirements.

These types of concerns:

...are exaggerated. Dictatorship ? New World Order ?

If that's the case, didn't the slippery slope start when we allowed meat inspection.

The whole thing is bogus. A bunch of New Age quacks and liars don't want to have to back up their claims or submit their products to the normal inspection process that almost every other product for human consumption goes through. This little fantasy land version of the Bill has been around for a year or more.

[M.Dancer]

The whole thing is bogus. A bunch of New Age quacks and liars don't want to have to back up their claims or submit their products to the normal inspection process that almost every other product for human consumption goes through. This little fantasy land version of the Bill has been around for a year or more.

Exactly. While you can sell food as food, once you package it as medicine, make claims about it reagarding its medicinal qualities, the food becomes medicine and as such it needs to go through the same rigorous testing as ASA...

[ToadBrother]

Exactly. While you can sell food as food, once you package it as medicine, make claims about it reagarding its medicinal qualities, the food becomes medicine and as such it needs to go through the same rigorous testing as ASA...

Even selling food requires conformity with health standards (in Canada defined by the Provinces). Health inspectors can literally shut down a restaurant on the spot if they find it seriously non-compliant with health regulations (I've seen it twice where I live in the last 25 years).

Yes, it probably could be defined as a restriction on liberty, but no liberty can be absolute, and certainly having drug, food and health inspectors sits in the same category of limitations as not being allowed to yell "FIRE!" in a crowded theater.

[Michael Hardner]

TB

Even selling food requires conformity with health standards (in Canada defined by the Provinces). Health inspectors can literally shut down a restaurant on the spot if they find it seriously non-compliant with health regulations (I've seen it twice where I live in the last 25 years).

Yes, it probably could be defined as a restriction on liberty, but no liberty can be absolute, and certainly having drug, food and health inspectors sits in the same category of limitations as not being allowed to yell "FIRE!" in a crowded theater.

Exactly. Even GIVING food away sometimes requires inspection. I guess too many church basement lunches went awry.

I go to an annual festival called Burning Man, where our group gives out Sno Cones. This happens in the middle of the Nevada desert, miles away from any town and yet the county inspectors drop in on us to ensure that we have hand sanitizers. In NEVADA.

Lawsuits are rightfully scorned, but they seem to have scared the authorities into at least a minimum level of government intervention even in the wild west.

[bjre]

Loving family treated as "criminals" by Health Canada!

Never in a million years would I expect to be telling fellow god-fearing Canadians what happened to my family and me. Having a life-time of working for the community, and caring for people, it seems hardly possible that this kind of humiliation would be allowed. Instead of being applauded for being a good citizen and helping people recover their health in a safer, more natural way, we were treated as if we were nasty criminals, dealing in drugs. I have never been more ashamed of my fellow Canadians as now, and I am very willing to talk about it.

The following events are shocking and especially when one discovers that they’ve happened in Canada.

On a beautiful morning in the middle of January, my wife answered the door. RCMP officers, and one with his gun drawn, burst through. I heard the officer say ‘not cool, that is not cool; I heard my wife say “Please put the gun away! We are no harm to any of you. We are humanitarians, not criminals.”

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...

http://www.billc6.com/www/stopc6/legal.htm

"If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." - Thomas Jefferson

[Guest TrueMetis]

http://www.billc6.com/www/stopc6/legal.htm

That's one side of the story and clearly doesn't give all the information.

[Michael Hardner]

bjre,

I found lots of sites that complained about this, but only one that could be called a news site... and even then...

Hans.org

On January 15, 2009, Health Canada agents accompanied by armed RCMP

entered the facilities and private residence of the owners of N.A.F.T.A, which sells amino acid, glandular and herbal products. "After their 10-hour search, they took all our computer hard drives, records and our

entire inventory," wrote the owner, Eldon Dahl, a non-practising naturopathic doctor in a letter to N.A.F.T.A. customers.

Because many of the N.A.F.T.A. products, such as progesterone cream and

single amino acids, are considered "by prescription only" in Canada, the company could be charged for criminal conduct.

Nothing out of order there, but I do question why this wasn't reported at least by the CBC. Seems like a big enough story to me.

Is there anybody on MLW in media who can address how these things are reported ?

[ToadBrother]

That's one side of the story and clearly doesn't give all the information.

Let's be very clear here. There are no laws forbidding you from eating whatever you like. If you have a cow, you can drink unpasteurized milk, and there are no laws broken. You can even give it to your friends, but if one of them drops dead from a nasty bacterial infection, you might get sued. Where the rules come into effect is when you produce foods for mass consumption, or where you market drugs and other remedies for human consumption, and in this case, in particular with various claims (and believe me, some of the claims I've seen for some of these herbal and natural remedies are right out there; marketed as cures for cancer, for diabetes and so forth).

The minute you go into the marketplace, there are laws about what you can say about your product, how you market it, and basic requirements that reasonable due diligence was taken in assuring safety. This bill extends that to an area that I think was long basically overlooked by authorities, and that was "natural health" products, where some individuals have made absurd claims, have endangered the health and welfare of their customers and have generally not seen fit to abide by any particular rules. This group, now seeing the gravy train for the snake oil coming to an end, have basically lied about this bill, have invented scenarios and have pumped of a very small number of stories beyond all reason in an attempt to essentially escape the requirements that every drug manufacturer, food producer and packer, brewery, winery and restaurant has had to abide by for decades.