Tories making inroads in Toronto: poll

[punked]

Perhaps you mean what New Democrat party in Quebec.

Never said NDP I said Social Democrat and that would be Québec solidaire. They would be linked to the NDP if they were not a sovereignty party but they are so the NDP refuses to speak to them.

[Keepitsimple]

Or end the party as Flanagan has indicated in past Globe articles. Some want it just a New Democrat and Conservative choice.

As I've said a couple of times, I would probably just drop out of the political process like a lot of Canadians have if it came down to that.

That will never happen. In a worst case scenario, I would see the Liberals and NDP merging with the NDP losing the far Left fringe....but that is really far out there.....I don't really expect the Liberals to implode in the manner that the old PC's did......but if the Conservatives win a majority....and Ignatieff bails out, the Libs will be in dire straits with the electorate......so I guess anything's possible - once things turn sour, they can go downhill pretty fast - especially if the media turns on them.

I'm not sure if it's fair to talk this bleakly about the Libs right now.....but darn, things don't exactly look rosy.

[punked]

That will never happen. In a worst case scenario, I would see the Liberals and NDP merging with the NDP losing the far Left fringe....but that is really far out there.....I don't really expect the Liberals to implode in the manner that the old PC's did......but if the Conservatives win a majority....and Ignatieff bails out, the Libs will be in dire straits with the electorate......so I guess anything's possible - once things turn sour, they can go downhill pretty fast - especially if the media turns on them.

I'm not sure if it's fair to talk this bleakly about the Libs right now.....but darn, things don't exactly look rosy.

I think if Ignatieff bails out and the Liberals being put in a real opposition position to oppose would be great for the Liberals. They could flush out their message and pin all the bad on the Conservatives. I think that is what truly save the Liberal party.

[Wild Bill]

Or end the party as Flanagan has indicated in past Globe articles. Some want it just a New Democrat and Conservative choice.

As I've said a couple of times, I would probably just drop out of the political process like a lot of Canadians have if it came down to that.

I don't agree that the Liberal party could end, jdobbin. Look what happened when the Tories went to 2 seats! They spent over a decade in the wilderness and wound up having those who left them come back.

You have to consider that a party is more than just the MP's. They are only the tip of the iceberg. The 90% that is submerged is the party infrastructure, right down to the riding associations. Sure, if the party's electoral fortunes went down the tubes the hit would be felt right down to the ridings but still, much of the infrastructure would still be there and would no doubt refuse to die.

More likely, what would happen is that while the Liberals were floundering in said wilderness the NDP would also be under incredible pressure. All these years they have consistently capped their percentage of the popular vote by being too left for mainstream Canadians. Suddenly, they would find themselves the Opposition! The Opposition is expected to at all times be ready and able to assume the government. If the NDP were not willing to change, they would see nothing but huge Tory majorities for generations to come.

So how could they change? Particularly, in a quick and timely fashion? There's no way they would have the people and resources to accomplish this for themselves. The job would be just far too much for them to handle. That leaves only one alternative...a merger with the Liberal Party!

They would have to give up their name. They are the established "too left-wing" brand, remember? So the Liberal Party, even though it may only have a few MP's at this point, would have the more popular brand. The Liberals would bring that infrastructure of people and resources that the NDP do not possess.

Within a term or two the Liberals would be contenders again! I truly believe this is a realistic scenario.

So we agree that Harper would 'destroy' a party, just that I think it would not be the Liberals in the final analysis but rather the NDP! Majority governments would become more usual again. The BQ would have their power in Parliament seriously diluted. I think that Harper probably understands this much better than I. You're assuming his desire to decimate the Liberal Party is just fanatical partisanship. This seems like tired old demonizing of your opponent to me. It is much more likely that his real goal is to streamline Parliament by giving citizens fewer but more clear choices. He would have made his competition stronger but would have helped to ensure we evolved away from the mess in Parliament we have now.

It might be very traumatic for present day Liberals but hey, it would be a very positive thing for Canada!

So if it happens jdobbin don't just drop out of the process! Stop and think of where your true loyalties lie. Are they to a particular organization or are they to our country itself? I'd sacrifice any and all of our political parties if it meant positive gains for Canada as a whole!

[jdobbin]

I don't agree that the Liberal party could end, jdobbin. Look what happened when the Tories went to 2 seats! They spent over a decade in the wilderness and wound up having those who left them come back.

Essentially though the PCs ended. I think the progressive wing was more or less excised.

You have to consider that a party is more than just the MP's. They are only the tip of the iceberg. The 90% that is submerged is the party infrastructure, right down to the riding associations. Sure, if the party's electoral fortunes went down the tubes the hit would be felt right down to the ridings but still, much of the infrastructure would still be there and would no doubt refuse to die.

So how could they change? Particularly, in a quick and timely fashion? There's no way they would have the people and resources to accomplish this for themselves. The job would be just far too much for them to handle. That leaves only one alternative...a merger with the Liberal Party!

Not sure that would happen.

The NDP and Liberals have never even contemplated a merger for the reason that one side views the other as too left and the other too right.

Within a term or two the Liberals would be contenders again! I truly believe this is a realistic scenario.

Given the province I come from, it is more realistic to see two parties. It eventually comes down to and us and them sort of existence.

So we agree that Harper would 'destroy' a party, just that I think it would not be the Liberals in the final analysis but rather the NDP! Majority governments would become more usual again. The BQ would have their power in Parliament seriously diluted. I think that Harper probably understands this much better than I. You're assuming his desire to decimate the Liberal Party is just fanatical partisanship. This seems like tired old demonizing of your opponent to me. It is much more likely that his real goal is to streamline Parliament by giving citizens fewer but more clear choices. He would have made his competition stronger but would have helped to ensure we evolved away from the mess in Parliament we have now.

I don't assume anything on Harper and the Liberals. It has been mentioned a few times by different people who have been close to Harper. You hear it often enough and see it demonstrated a few times, it is not hard to believe it.

So if it happens jdobbin don't just drop out of the process! Stop and think of where your true loyalties lie. Are they to a particular organization or are they to our country itself? I'd sacrifice any and all of our political parties if it meant positive gains for Canada as a whole!

If I had no choice politically, I would chose to do something else for the country. I'd drop out like many Canadians have done and continue to do. At some point, I see the vote participation falling to even lower levels if people feel their choices aren't there or just don't care anymore.

[jdobbin]

That will never happen. In a worst case scenario, I would see the Liberals and NDP merging with the NDP losing the far Left fringe....but that is really far out there.....I don't really expect the Liberals to implode in the manner that the old PC's did......but if the Conservatives win a majority....and Ignatieff bails out, the Libs will be in dire straits with the electorate......so I guess anything's possible - once things turn sour, they can go downhill pretty fast - especially if the media turns on them.

It hasn't happened anywhere in Canada where a merger took place between NDP and Liberals.

The only reason the Liberals are back in Manitoba is that they crawled out of no seats to a handful. If the party ceased in Manitoba and there were no candidates, I would stop voting since I don't like the choices I have now. That could easily happen given the push to two parties that some people seem to desire.

Likewise, if I felt my options were not there federally, I would withdraw from the process and avoid even paying attention to what happened in Ottawa in favour of doing something else that didn't involve voting.

I'm not sure if it's fair to talk this bleakly about the Libs right now.....but darn, things don't exactly look rosy.

As I've said a few times, it seems that the push is to two parties.

I have seen first hand what that is like in the 1980s. It seemed to bring out the worst in the two major parties here in Manitoba.

[Molly]

The Sask Party is a functional merger of Liberals and PCs....

[Jerry J. Fortin]

The Sask Party is a functional merger of Liberals and PCs....

I call bullshit on that! More like a different name for the PC's. They had to since an awful lot of them went to jail for their last run at the provincial kitty! That is what caused the dippers to get a government there in the first place.

[madmax]

I call bullshit on that! More like a different name for the PC's. They had to since an awful lot of them went to jail for their last run at the provincial kitty! That is what caused the dippers to get a government there in the first place.

A little harsh there. Yes the PCs name was MUD and this is not unusual when Conservatives run a Province or Country , they often do enough damage that they require a rebranding in order become electable again.

However, it is also true that the PCs and Libs together formed the Sask party.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saskatchewan_Party

The Saskatchewan Party is a center-right political party in the Canadian province of Saskatchewan. The party was established in 1997 by a coalition of former Progressive Conservative and Liberal party members and supporters who sought to remove the Saskatchewan New Democratic Party from power

Edited September 28, 2009 by madmax

[jdobbin]

However, it is also true that the PCs and Libs together formed the Sask party.

And there were Liberals who joined the NDP there as well.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

I invite you folks to look at the Sask Party and then tell me how much Liberal dogma you find.....

[madmax]

I invite you folks to look at the Sask Party and then tell me how much Liberal dogma you find.....

I know I will find no Sask Party members in TO

[jdobbin]

Looks like Iggy's bounce in the polls is all but gone.

The latest Ekos city numbers.

http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/10/01/ekos-we...9-6/#more-84920

Vancouver (MoE 9.1)

Conservatives: 40.2 (+5.9)

Liberals: 26.5 (+1.3)

NDP: 20.7 (-3.5)

Green: 12.5 (-3.7)

Calgary (MoE 12.6)

Conservatives: 62.0 (+4.3)

Liberals: 19.6 (-11.8)

NDP: 3.0 (-0.2)

Green: 15.0 (+7.2)

Toronto (MoE 5.6)

Liberals: 43.3 (+5.1)

Conservatives: 38.1 (-3.8)

NDP: 11.2 (-0.2)

Green: 7.4 (-2.1)

Ottawa (MoE 8.0)

Conservatives: 43.4 (-11.6)

Liberals: 39.3 (+11.0)

NDP: 10.0 (+0.2)

Green: 7.2 (-1.0)

Montreal (MoE 5.6)

Bloc Quebecois: 34.5 (-2.0)

Liberals: 31.7 (+2.2)

Conservatives: 14.2 (-2.2)

NDP: 7.3 (-2.2)

Green: 12.3 (+4.1)