Flaherty says HST is GOOD

[madmax]

The only people bullshitting are people who say teh GST is regressive.

Wow that is quite the basket of goods you have....

The GST is regressive. Its a fact.

[Smallc]

No, it isn't a fact. It's only regressive if you buy taxable items.

[jdobbin]

It would be less burdensome if it didn't exist.

So would all tax.

Regressive taxes are not fair.

So, the Canada should get rid all of all sales taxes?

I lived in a Canada without the GST.

And had the MST.

Are the Liberals going to repay the $46 Billion they took from EI? I paid into that too.

Are you going to pay back the money that was spent on you in the years before?

I say grab some balls and tell us if you believe all sales tax should end in favour of income tax only.

[Dave_ON]

We had income tax without the GST. I preferred that, and the GST picked my pocket disproportionately to others who pay.

Are you eliminating income taxes?

There is no "Problem" with my thinking.

Go without heat, hydro and gas for the winter. These are Essentials and quite frankly kick the shit out of poor people. Go without Clothes and shoes and socks and School books.

Get rid of your phone, your internet. Those aren't essential either. Don't need a car, its not essential, nor is the cab or bus you won't need to ride in because it isn't essential either. Don't worry about a regular haircut... its not essential. The hippie era will comeback.

Peter Pocklington is having his wet dream to come true.

Umm there was a hidden federal sales tax prior to the GST, Federal sales tax is not new it's just simply out in the open now. I honestly don't understand how you can be a fan of income tax/payroll tax over a consumption tax that really makes no sense. If a lower income earner had their earnings wihout tax they would be able to better afford those essentials especially considering the tax credit that would follow. Food and rent are not subject to HST this is what I was referring to as essentials. Internent and even a car isn't an essential. As for the bus there is a federal tax credit for that also.

The reason that Sales taxes are in fact progressive is because the reality is the more money you earn the more money you have to spend on taxable items, ergo you pay more tax. While income/payroll taxes are also structured this way, loosely at least, you don't have a choice as to whether or not you wish to pay these. Consumption taxes are for the most part voluntary. If I want to save my money and not spend it on big screen tv's, iPod's, vacations etc. I can do so. If I do I'll pay tax on those items.

Are some essentials taxed? Yes, they are but that is why the tax credit is setup to protect lower income earners. Again its a little bit backward to tax what people earn as opposed to what they spend. I don't disagree that the definition of "essential" should be broadened somewhat, but that doesn't make consumption tax any less progressive just because it isn't necessarily implemented correctly at this juncture.

[Riverwind]

The GST is regressive. Its a fact.

Only in your mind. I gave the numbers. People with less income spend less taxable goods and get the GST credit. This makes it a moderately progressive tax. Obviously it is not a soak-the-rich style of progressive tax which you seem to want but it does demonstrate that your claims are not supported by facts.

[jdobbin]

We had income tax without the GST. I preferred that, and the GST picked my pocket disproportionately to others who pay.

We had the MST before. Do you recall the problems from that?

Are you eliminating income taxes?

Answer my question first.

Go without heat, hydro and gas for the winter. These are Essentials and quite frankly kick the shit out of poor people. Go without Clothes and shoes and socks and School books.

You are mentioning several things that don't get taxed there.

School books are not taxed. Children's clothing is not taxed.

Are they in your jurisdiction?

Get rid of your phone, your internet. Those aren't essential either. Don't need a car, its not essential, nor is the cab or bus you won't need to ride in because it isn't essential either. Don't worry about a regular haircut... its not essential. The hippie era will comeback.

Cut the services that you require that are paid for by that tax?

Or do you want a large income tax increase? Your choice.

[madmax]

We had the MST before. Do you recall the problems from that?

I recall having the strongest damn industrial base on the planet. I recall not having to pay GST on top of everything else I buy. I recall being told that savings would be passed onto the consumer. I am still waiting.

You are mentioning several things that don't get taxed there.

School books are not taxed. Children's clothing is not taxed.

Are they in your jurisdiction?

School supplies including books are taxed and will be taxed MORE. Other items that were not taxed will be taxed.

Or do you want a large income tax increase? Your choice.

What is clear is that the Conservatives support the HST and the Liberals support the HST.

Shall we stick with the dick? Better the devil you know....

[madmax]

Or do you want a large income tax increase? Your choice.

With fewer people making 40,000 to 70,000 outside of the public sector... government revenues are falling like a rock. That is why they are increasing taxes and increasing the catchment area.

Harper reduced revenues and it cost him the last of surplus.

Martin reduced revenues with massive tax cuts, and offset it by stealing from the EI fund.

Seems there was plenty of money to go around, it was just a matter of who the government wanted to give money back to, and who they want to take it away from.

It is clear.

The poor will pay more.

The lower middle class will pay more

The middle class will pay more

and the wealthy will pay less.

Government revenues will increase overall.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

I hate taxes !

[Who's Doing What?]

I argued this when the CPC planned to cut the GST.

The best thing that could happen is that there is zero income tax and a large GST/HST.

Give me all my money and I will decide what I want to do with it.

IF I want to buy taxable items then I will pay the tax. If I want to save my money then I have the choice to do that aswell. Dinging me a few hundred bucks every paycheque is just bullspit. Imagine the money the Govt. could save if it got rid of the income tax part of Revenue Canada.

[jdobbin]

I recall having the strongest damn industrial base on the planet. I recall not having to pay GST on top of everything else I buy. I recall being told that savings would be passed onto the consumer. I am still waiting.

The stories Mulroney told about the GST were whoppers but one thing was true and that was the MST was starting to have an impact on exports and was going to continue as other countries started to industrialize.

Our manufacturing base was going to be affected in a greater way by this tax.

Now, one of the main factors affecting manufacturing is the exchange rate, not tax.

School supplies including books are taxed and will be taxed MORE. Other items that were not taxed will be taxed.

Is that just Ontario?

What is clear is that the Conservatives support the HST and the Liberals support the HST.

Shall we stick with the dick? Better the devil you know....

What is not clear is if you support the end of sales taxes which the NDP supports in provinces such as Manitoba and that the federal NDP does not criticize on the provincial level in favour of higher income taxes.

All I hear is a lot anger towards the sales tax but no alternatives. I personally know the HST will hurt my business but I looking to other tax decreases to make up for the efficiencies made up elsewhere.

[jdobbin]

With fewer people making 40,000 to 70,000 outside of the public sector... government revenues are falling like a rock. That is why they are increasing taxes and increasing the catchment area.

One of the main factor affecting government receipts is the drop in corporate taxes.

It is clear.

What is not clear is where you stand. A big spotlight is shining on you.

Elaborate your plan for getting Canada out of deficit and that meets your goal of no regressive taxes.

[ToadBrother]

I argued this when the CPC planned to cut the GST.

The best thing that could happen is that there is zero income tax and a large GST/HST.

Amen. Consumption taxes are infinitely superior. They tend to be much fairer and progressive, tend to be considerably cheaper for both government and business to actually deal with.

The problem, as a BCer, that I have with our own journey to the HST is largely the dishonest way in which the BC Liberals brought it in. I think it's a good idea, but it should have been an election issue. Of course, they were terrified that if they announced it during the election they could take a hit, and maybe lose. They would have lost seats in marginal ridings, to be sure, but I can't imagine the NDP would have carried the day. But now they, like the Federal Conservatives did with the GST, have set the stage for their own destruction. The NDP will ride a tide of anti-tax fever, and then, once they get in, they, like the Federal Liberals did in 1993, will listen to the economists who will inevitably say "It's a damned good tax! Don't be morons."

Harper never showed is ineptitude and fundamental lack of the grasp of economics (despite some sort of degree in it, though maybe that was some sort of window dressing for a guy whose basically wanted to be a career political hack since he was a teenager) than when he slashed the GST. I would have done the exact opposite, bumped the GST up a few points and taken income taxes down. That would have much better situated the Federal Government for the rough ride than doing both, which has been demonstrated to be a blunder of absolutely cosmic proportions.

[madmax]

Isn't it ironic....don't you think? A little too ironic???

NATIONAL CITIZENS COALITION AGAINST HST.... HAHAHAHAHARPER IS RIPPING US OFF

The Harmonized Sales Tax in Ontario and BC will only certainly lead to an increase in prices for many products and services that are currently PST exempt.

This tax increase will be especially hard on seniors, students and low income earners who are on fixed incomes and will simply be faced with an increase in prices.

We can't afford new taxes or higher taxes no matter how you frame it , whether you call them outright tax increases or try and make it sound less destructive by calling them a 'Harmonized Sales Tax'.

Sign up to use our HST calculator to see just how much this new tax will affect your bottom line.

[Topaz]

Don't forget that the Tories aren't done raising taxes. The EI will go up and its 1.77 for every $100.00 and new charge is 2.33 for every $100.00 you make. Seems to me they will have that surplus to help pay off THEIR debt.

[crazykai]

Don't forget that the Tories aren't done raising taxes. The EI will go up and its 1.77 for every $100.00 and new charge is 2.33 for every $100.00 you make. Seems to me they will have that surplus to help pay off THEIR debt.

Don't forget, EI premiums are taxed again for employers at 1.4 times the employee rate. Of course, these payroll taxes are often indirectly passed onto employees. When you take that into account, the mariginal tax rate between the lower-middle and upper middle class isn't much different.

And tax increase only on income earned belowed $42,300... how regressive. Almost unheard of, oh wait, Harper raised the lowest mariginal tax rate when he come into office.

Talk about an unbalanced tax policy, tax cuts for the rich, tax hikes for the poor. And it's not like we have a massive braindrain or capital outflow problems, on the contrary.

Edited October 19, 2009 by crazykai

[madmax]

Don't forget, EI premiums are taxed again for employers at 1.4 times the employee rate. Of course, these payroll taxes are often indirectly passed onto employees. When you take that into account, the mariginal tax rate between the lower-middle and upper middle class isn't much different.

And tax increase only on income earned belowed $42,300... how regressive. Almost unheard of, oh wait, Harper raised the lowest mariginal tax rate when he come into office.

Talk about an unbalanced tax policy, tax cuts for the rich, tax hikes for the poor. And it's not like we have a massive braindrain or capital outflow problems, on the contrary.

And more importantly. The Employment Insurance Fund has generated positive revenue surpluses since 1995 to the tune $56 Billion. Prior to that it was balanced in 1993. So, just because there is a short term recession, the EI payroll payments are going to be increased on a permanent basis, when we are already paying too much and should be receiving Payroll tax cuts on EI.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

And more importantly. The Employment Insurance Fund has generated positive revenue surpluses since 1995 to the tune $56 Billion. Prior to that it was balanced in 1993. So, just because there is a short term recession, the EI payroll payments are going to be increased on a permanent basis, when we are already paying too much and should be receiving Payroll tax cuts on EI.

Harper is slick, he is betting that the folks at the bottom of the pile don't pay attention, and they really don't. A vast chunk of the apathetic vote is from the bottom third of the income scale. The folks at the top make the most noise but we all know how that works!

[Wild Bill]

With fewer people making 40,000 to 70,000 outside of the public sector... government revenues are falling like a rock. That is why they are increasing taxes and increasing the catchment area.

Harper reduced revenues and it cost him the last of surplus.

Martin reduced revenues with massive tax cuts, and offset it by stealing from the EI fund.

Seems there was plenty of money to go around, it was just a matter of who the government wanted to give money back to, and who they want to take it away from.

It is clear.

The poor will pay more.

The lower middle class will pay more

The middle class will pay more

and the wealthy will pay less.

Government revenues will increase overall.

Of course, MM! Why would you expect it to be any different?

It's just simple math. I used to do this example on the back of an envelope but it really got easy once we all had spreadsheet programs.

Take a guess at how many people make under $25/yr, 50K/yr, 250k/yr and those who make more. Don't worry about being accurate. This works so well that you can be HUGELY wrong and still clearly see the same result!

Multiply out the incomes in each category and you will be able to plot a curve, make a pie chart or whatever blows your skirt up!

It will be obvious that most of the money comes from the ordinary working Canadian! The poor have no money and while there are some who are super rich, there are not that many of them to add up to nearly as big a chunk of the tax base.

Governments go where the money is. You could let all the rich off scot-free and it wouldn't really matter.

The rich do serve one useful political function. When we poor peons start to get angry about being screwed too painfully a politician can always say "Look at that rich guy over there! He's not paying his share!".

As a diversion it works great! We go chasing after the rich guy while the politician, safely off the hook, sits back and laughs at us.

[madmax]

Multiply out the incomes in each category and you will be able to plot a curve, make a pie chart or whatever blows your skirt up!

Its phrases like this that gives me a kick out of reading the comments on MLW. Obviously there are a few of us on a similar wavelength on various issues, but neither Jerry or I have compared taxation to a vision of Marilyn Monroe standing over a pie chart.