Is this message reasonable? Why not?

[kimmy]

Why would I? Are they in need of reality?

My opinion: no, they are not. It is the people who say there's no such thing as race that need some reality.

Same question to you.

I never said btw, that race doesn't exist in our culture...only that as a scientific concept it is useless.

So ... if someone of darker complexion feels pride that someone of their skin tone has become the President of the United States of America, you feel they're justified, because race exists in our culture.

... but if someone of lighter complexion were to feel pride in the achievements of (say) Isaac Newton, you'd feel compelled to explain to them that race is useless as a scientific concept?

-k

[lictor616]

My opinion: no, they are not. It is the people who say there's no such thing as race that need some reality.

Same question to you.

So ... if someone of darker complexion feels pride that someone of their skin tone has become the President of the United States of America, you feel they're justified, because race exists in our culture.

... but if someone of lighter complexion were to feel pride in the achievements of (say) Isaac Newton, you'd feel compelled to explain to them that race is useless as a scientific concept?

-k

why even bother with Dancer? he obviously KNOWS what he is doing... no need in reminding him of the obvious inadequacies and gaping double standards... he understand full well that they are what they are...

[kimmy]

why even bother with Dancer?

'cuz we go way back.

-k

Edited September 10, 2009 by kimmy

[kimmy]

I personally find blonde jokes very obnoxious and sad. In some more extreme cases they are simply surreptitious hatred... and I'm almost certain that many minorities use them to air their hatred of the minority of ill-starred people who have hair that resembles spun gold... They like to put down and spit at what they can't produce.

Minorities? Not in my experience... by far the worst offenders are other white people, and white women more often than not.

My ex girlfriend used to nervously laugh at blonde jokes (she had very bright almost metallic blonde hair) it used to sadden me that her rare and beautiful hair wasn't a source of confidence and self-esteem.

Of course she laughed nervously. If you don't laugh along, then-- inexplicably-- you're the one who has some sort of problem. At least, that's how you're supposed to feel. "Hey, what's your problem? It's just jokes. Lighten up! Why are you being such a bitch about it?"

But personally, I'm way past that. I'm simply not the sort of person who even cares about being considered a bitch.

Here's the thing. Jokes are supposed to be for the entertainment of the audience, right? Comedy, levity, amusement? Somebody telling me a dumb blond joke isn't trying to entertain or amuse me. They're acting out some sort of passive-aggressive bullshit, or they're playing some sort of head-game, or they're trying to put me in my place, or some variant of these sorts of things. So they're not entitled to the sort of courtesy laugh I'd give someone telling some other joke, even a bad one. They're entitled to be treated just as boorishly as they've just acted.

So, I tell them this new joke that's going around.

And of course you're utterly right... put the shoe on the other foot... imagine if we say that kinky haired people were stupid... then the sky would be falling and all sorts of hate crimes would be investigated... and charter rights, and american woman, peterF and the like would all come howling in this forum to moan about "raaaay-cism"..

another double standard... .they're really starting to pile up

When it comes to blondes, the double standard is unsurpassed. We're the only group in society that you can say any damned thing you like about without any fear of reprisal. The most politically correct sonofabitch on the planet won't say word one regardless what you say about the blondes. Why? Because we simply don't have the lobby group. And because (at the risk of inviting a tawdry double-entendre) people like your former girlfriend take it lying down.

I recall watching one of those "profiler" type TV programs, where the expert detecting informed the suspect that he knew he'd been sick a lot as a child because of his pale complexion. Aside from the obvious stupidity of gauging someone's strength or health by their complexion, imagine the reaction if he'd made a corresponding remark about someone of some other complexion type. As one of the more pale of pale-people, this one really annoyed me.

One time Belinda Stronach went to dinner with Bill Clinton and the resulting headline was "Bill Clinton's New Blonde." Imagine the equivalent headline if he'd gone to dinner with a black woman!

Or how about the recent coverage of the Jaycee Dugard kidnapper arrest? Repeated references to the daughters' blonde hair, as if trying to evoke some sort of Stepford visual in the reader.

Writers would be out of jobs for writing this kind of crap about anybody else.

-k

[M.Dancer]

So ... if someone of darker complexion feels pride that someone of their skin tone has become the President of the United States of America, you feel they're justified, because race exists in our culture.

... but if someone of lighter complexion were to feel pride in the achievements of (say) Isaac Newton, you'd feel compelled to explain to them that race is useless as a scientific concept?

-k

I would say both are experiancing a false pride. I can't imaging anyone being proud as a white person that Harper is the PM and I find the same feeling amonst blacks towards Obama to be somewhat..umm...corny...schmaltzy...quite frankly I find it embarrassing.

[Guest American Woman]

When it comes to blondes, the double standard is unsurpassed. We're the only group in society that you can say any damned thing you like about without any fear of reprisal. The most politically correct sonofabitch on the planet won't say word one regardless what you say about the blondes. Why? Because we simply don't have the lobby group. And because (at the risk of inviting a tawdry double-entendre) people like your former girlfriend take it lying down.

When it comes to blondes, it covers every race, nation, ethnic group out there. More blondes are fake than natural, and the jokes are about them, too. So the "only group in society" is about the only group that includes everyone, male and female. So it's hardly an 'exclusive' group, which makes it quite different from any other "group" such as race, nationality, etc.

My entire family is blondes, and I've never once felt I needed a "lobby group" to save me from "dumb blonde" jokes. I've never known a blonde to feel 'inferior' because of being blonde, either. If being blonde was perceived as such a drawback/source of inferiority, there wouldn't be tons of people paying tons of money to become blondes.

Edited September 10, 2009 by American Woman

[Bonam]

When it comes to blondes, it covers every race, nation, ethnic group out there.

Yes, because so many Chinese people or African people are blond... come on, get real.

My entire family is blondes, and I've never once felt I needed a "lobby group" to save me from "dumb blonde" jokes. I've never known a blonde to feel 'inferior' because of being blonde, either. If being blonde was perceived as such a drawback/source of inferiority, there wouldn't be tons of people paying tons of money to become blondes.

I'm sure there are many blacks out there that don't think they need to be saved by liberals from the evils of racism. I'm sure there are many people from just about any minority group you can think of that haven't personally been made to feel inferior. Does that mean discrimination against their group never happens?

[kimmy]

I would say both are experiancing a false pride. I can't imaging anyone being proud as a white person that Harper is the PM and I find the same feeling amonst blacks towards Obama to be somewhat..umm...corny...schmaltzy...quite frankly I find it embarrassing.

I don't disagree. But millions upon millions of jubilant African-Americans last November couldn't be wrong.

-k

[Guest American Woman]

Yes, because so many Chinese people or African people are blond... come on, get real.

You've seriously never seen a blonde Chinese of African person? Because I sure have. I've seen them with every hair color. Lots of them, as a matter of fact.

I'm sure there are many blacks out there that don't think they need to be saved by liberals from the evils of racism. I'm sure there are many people from just about any minority group you can think of that haven't personally been made to feel inferior. Does that mean discrimination against their group never happens?

I'm saying "blondes" as a group comparable to Blacks, nationality, gender, etc., doesn't exist. It's crazy to try to compare "blondes" to "blacks," for example, and I already explained why, so I won't get into it again.

But for the record, any blonde who can't handle being a blonde need only to dye their hair. There is no way to stop being Black, or Native American, or Hispanic, etc.....

[kimmy]

Of course. I would never compare my lot in life to what it must be like to be black or aboriginal.

Still, why should I have to disguise myself to avoid discrimination and demeaning remarks?

And, I still believe the examples I mentioned (among others) stand as an example of an obvious double standard. A teacher once explained that an easy test for bias is to take a word (say, blonde in this case) out and replace it with a different word (pick some other identifiable group) and see if what you've written still sounds ok. Many media stories fail this simple test where "blonde" is concerned.

I suspect that a significant portion of the non-white people you mention who've opted to go blonde are associated with sex-trades. The only blonde Asian I can think of off the top of my head is ... Tila Tequila. We all know why she's gone blonde.

I would never compare my lot in life to what it must be like to be black or aboriginal. Still, it's given me some awareness of the way people use words, and the subtext.

-k

[Bonam]

You've seriously never seen a blonde Chinese of African person? Because I sure have. I've seen them with every hair color. Lots of them, as a matter of fact.

I saw a blond Chinese girl once. Was artificial of course, and didn't suit her at all, in my opinion. Very rare from what I've seen. And for them to have that hair color naturally? I certainly haven't encountered any naturally blond Chinese or Africans.

I'm saying "blondes" as a group comparable to Blacks, nationality, gender, etc., doesn't exist. It's crazy to try to compare "blondes" to "blacks," for example, and I already explained why, so I won't get into it again.

Everyone who feels like it is defining themselves as a group these days. Groups have been organized around racial lines, religious lines, based on gender, on national origin, on sexual preference. So why not hair color?

But for the record, any blonde who can't handle being a blonde need only to dye their hair. There is no way to stop being Black, or Native American, or Hispanic, etc.....

So if being a member of a certain discriminated-against minority is escapable through self-modification then it's ok that that minority is discriminated against? What if surgical or other medical techniques are available that can alter one's skin color? Does that mean that racial discrimination ceases to become relevant? Is religious discrimination irrelevant because one can simply convert?

Edited September 10, 2009 by Bonam

[Melanie_]

Indeed it is... it is actually so embedded and real that it might be termed INSTINCTIVE. From all the studies routinely carried out on children... how children have a hard time with what is called "other race facial recognition" how MRI scans show that young children show heightened activity in the amygdala when they are around people of different races... how even "babies discriminate"

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index....showtopic=14909

at what point does the evidence ceases to be insufficient?

I mean the whole problem with this argument is that the onus of evidence should be on the Egalitarian side to show how sub race- racial differences are really as they say they are "figments of the imagination".

Some quotes from your link, Lictor - I can see how you might be confused, as the title of the article contradicts what it actually says. I really think, though, you should make a habit of reading what you are linking to, so you can have more credibility in your posts.

How do researchers test a 6-month-old? They show babies photographs of faces. Katz found that babies will stare significantly longer at photographs of faces that are a different race from their parents, indicating they find the face out of the ordinary. Race itself has no ethnic meaning per se—but children's brains are noticing skin-color differences and trying to understand their meaning.

Is it really so difficult to talk with children about race when they're very young? What jumped out at Phyllis Katz, in her study of 200 black and white children, was that parents are very comfortable talking to their children about gender, and they work very hard to counterprogram against boy-girl stereotypes. That ought to be our model for talking about race. The same way we remind our daughters, "Mommies can be doctors just like daddies," we ought to be telling all children that doctors can be any skin color. It's not complicated what to say. It's only a matter of how often we reinforce it.

That leads to the question that everyone wonders but rarely dares to ask. If "black pride" is good for African-American children, where does that leave white children? It's horrifying to imagine kids being "proud to be white." Yet many scholars argue that's exactly what children's brains are already computing. Just as minority children are aware that they belong to an ethnic group with less status and wealth, most white children naturally decipher that they belong to the race that has more power, wealth, and control in society; this provides security, if not confidence. So a pride message would not just be abhorrent—it'd be redundant.

[M.Dancer]

Lictor distort an article for his own white supremist agenda?

pshaw...

[Guest American Woman]

Of course. I would never compare my lot in life to what it must be like to be black or aboriginal.

Your "lot" in life is one that people actually seek. There is nothing "comparable" about it.

Still, why should I have to disguise myself to avoid discrimination and demeaning remarks?

When and where have blondes every been discriminated against? As for the demeaning remarks, people who are tall, short, fat, skinny, etc. have to deal with demeaning remarks. It's not exclusive to blondes.

And, I still believe the examples I mentioned (among others) stand as an example of an obvious double standard. A teacher once explained that an easy test for bias is to take a word (say, blonde in this case) out and replace it with a different word (pick some other identifiable group) and see if what you've written still sounds ok. Many media stories fail this simple test where "blonde" is concerned.

Blondes hardly fit the definition of "an identifiable group," though. As I pointed out, they include people from every race, every nationality, every walk of life, as well as both male and female.

I suspect that a significant portion of the non-white people you mention who've opted to go blonde are associated with sex-trades. The only blonde Asian I can think of off the top of my head is ... Tila Tequila. We all know why she's gone blonde.

Wow. That is a really an archaic, not to mention judgmental, remark. For the record, none of the people I mentioned are in any way, shape, or form associated with sex-trades. They are simply people who opted to go blonde. I see blonde Asians in any number of cities/countries. I see Blacks with blonde hair in any number of cites/countries. And since Obama, being half Black is considered Black, I've seen Blacks with natural blonde hair.

I would never compare my lot in life to what it must be like to be black or aboriginal.

I would hope not.

Still, it's given me some awareness of the way people use words, and the subtext.

I think people who have actually had to deal with hatred, violence, racism, and bigotry would scoff at that comment.

[kimmy]

Some quotes from your link, Lictor -

That leads to the question that everyone wonders but rarely dares to ask. If "black pride" is good for African-American children, where does that leave white children? It's horrifying to imagine kids being "proud to be white." Yet many scholars argue that's exactly what children's brains are already computing. Just as minority children are aware that they belong to an ethnic group with less status and wealth, most white children naturally decipher that they belong to the race that has more power, wealth, and control in society; this provides security, if not confidence. So a pride message would not just be abhorrent—it'd be redundant.

So, if young children are already coming to this conclusion on their own, how is ignoring it or refusing to address the idea beneficial?

Wouldn't having some sort of formalized discussion of the topic be a good opportunity to put it in some sort of context?

-k

[M.Dancer]

The only blonde Asian I can think of off the top of my head is ... Tila Tequila. We all know why she's gone blonde.

I just heard of her yesterday...okay....why is she a blonde?

[Bonam]

Blondes hardly fit the definition of "an identifiable group," though.

You can't identify blond people? That's what an identifiable group means by the way... that its members can be identified.

[Melanie_]

So, if young children are already coming to this conclusion on their own, how is ignoring it or refusing to address the idea beneficial?

Wouldn't having some sort of formalized discussion of the topic be a good opportunity to put it in some sort of context?

-k

Absolutely. This is the point of the article - we need to recognize superficial differences, if only to help children understand that they are, in fact, superficial. When children are left to figure it out by themselves, with the implied message that to talk about differences is wrong, we are reinforcing the idea that there is something wrong about the differences.

[kimmy]

I just heard of her yesterday...

I'm skeptical

okay....why is she a blonde?

It has to do with what she's selling.

-k

[Guest American Woman]

What is she selling now that she wasn't selling before she went blonde?

Edited September 10, 2009 by American Woman

[M.Dancer]

I'm skeptical

It has to do with what she's selling.

-k

Which is?

[M.Dancer]

I'm skeptical

I'm almost 51. But I have a 10 year old daughter so I know almost everything about Ashley Tisdale, Miley Cyrus and the Jonas Bros.

I just googled her.

Blond hair ain't the only thing not real about her. Not that that is bad...

[kimmy]

Your "lot" in life is one that people actually seek. There is nothing "comparable" about it.

When and where have blondes every been discriminated against?

Well, of course, all I'd have would be personal anecdotes and vague feelings that such a thing might happen. After all, what serious academic would waste their career studying something so trivial?

Well, one actually did:

Recent research conducted by, among others, Diana Kyle at California State University reveals - amazingly - that while being blonde may boost your social life, it can also damage your career prospects. Blonde females are rejected for jobs more often than equally qualified brunettes. And where blondes and brunettes are given similar jobs, the darker-haired applicants are awarded higher salaries. It seems hardly credible that such a changeable feature as hair colour could so influence recruitment decisions but the research findings seem unequivocal.

Certainly recruiters are not aware they are making such biased choices. In a study I did at the London Business School for the BBC television programme 4x4 , MBA students, the bosses of the future, were given six CVs with photos attached, and a job description. They were asked to assess six candidates for a managerial job.

There was one catch. I gave half of them a female candidate with blonde hair. The other half had exactly the same candidate, but this time she was a brunette. I wanted to see if they evaluated her differently.

When they had made their choices, the MBA students were asked whether the photos had affected their choices. They were convinced that hair colour had not affected their decision-making process. 'The picture for me didn't play a major part,' said one. 'I made a studious attempt to ignore the appearance of the applicants,' said another. 'I focused primarily on the CV,' insisted a third.

But the results reveal a different story. While they had appointed the blonde and brunette almost equally to the job, they had awarded the brunette a higher salary.

Under closer questioning, the MBA students revealed that the blonde stereotype had indeed affected their judgement. 'The woman with blonde hair is more of a wannabe - I would think she is probably an experienced secretary or something,' confessed one. 'She looks like a PA rather than a middle manager,' said another. 'The brunette does look more like one would imagine a middle-manager would look.'

But, 's just jokes, right? 's just jokes.

-k

[kimmy]

Which is?

...er, videos.

-k

[Guest TrueMetis]

well they were there, first....

I could use the same argument you use against solutreans being the legitimate heirs to north america against OUR natives...

They constitute what 2% of our country and before Europeans, they weren't even really SETTLERS.... they were nomads, with a stone age culture and without the knowhow to "settle" the land...

ah but if I said that I suppose that would make me some sort of ogre...

Prove they were here first.

They can be the legitimate heirs to part of North America but not all of it.

Cause nomads have never been able to settle down and learn to farm. /Sarcasm

No just a fool.

Edited September 10, 2009 by TrueMetis