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[Guest American Woman]

you must be an amateur traveler if you rely on travelling agencies to tell you what countries are like... I bet you're the type of person who makes her opinion on other countries based on travel ads and all inclusive americanized resorts where brown faces bring you rum and cokes with little umbrellas on them...

You couldn't be more wrong. Frankly I'm surprised you've had the experiences you've had, because I don't know anyone who has and has remained so close-minded and angry.

and if your not immune to reality: Haiti is the poorest country in the Western Hemisphere with 80% of the population living under the poverty line and 54% in abject poverty.

I'm well aware of Haiti's poverty. I'm also aware of the beauty of the land and the people. In my world, "poverty" and "cesspool" are not synonymous. It would seem as if you've learned nothing from your experiences.

[lictor616]

The Germans and Celts didn't have written language until the Romans introduced it, and the Romans didn't have it until the Etruscans forced it on them, and the Etruscans didn't have it until they had picked it up from the Greeks, who didn't have until they had picked it up from the Egyptians and the Phoenicians. After that, it gets murky, but the Phoenician system largely owes its roots to the Sumero-Akkadian and Egyptian scripts, and the debate is whether Egyptian writing developed in isolation on its own or whether it too is ultimately descended from the Sumerian logographic system.

"Greek" was independently developed... Doric Ancient Greek, Egypt has a completely different language system... in fact it has so little resemblances that I've actually never heard of any scholar even think about Greek as being an offshoot dialect of Egypt... As for Phoenician... Not sure how that counts as an african language... but anyway... it barely predates Greek...

wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek

And many tribes and small foraging nations in Northern Europe had developed written language

Ordovices, the Silures during Iron Age of Northern Europe all had written languages.

and before that Jastorf culture, ancient Solutreans, had the rudiments of written language in stone and other material.

[lictor616]

You couldn't be more wrong. Frankly I'm surprised you've had the experiences you've had, because I don't know anyone who has and has remained so close-minded and angry.

I'm well aware of Haiti's poverty. I'm also aware of the beauty of the land and the people. In my world, "poverty" and "cesspool" are not synonymous. It would seem as if you've learned nothing from your experiences.

judging by the venomous shrieks in this thread alone, an unbiased Martian observer would have to conclude that i'm not the one who's filled with hate and emotional vitriol... what with all the people always putting the onus back unto me to call me either ignorant or "a tool" or stupid, or worthless, contemptible etc...

I'm also growing quite weary of the term "close minded" ... what does it mean specifically? I mean asking impolite questions, trying to jab some sense out of such taboo's as race relations are not synonymous with any definition of "close mindedness" so far as I'm concerned.

And you shouldn't be surprised most people who get the opportunity to travel for any extensive amount of time do discover that the difference between observed reality and what Canadian liberals say are intolerably great.

Many Slums near Port Au Prince, and Cité Soleil are quite literally "cesspools"... i'm not saying that to inflame either, or to exaggerate the situation, without sewage plants or garbage disposal, many regions are swimming in human and animal feces and are akin to landfills... or huge trash heaps... again this is not me being "mean and hateful" its an actual statement of fact... I've actually bothered showing you a few ghastly pics... and I swear no one retouched them...

a good friend of mine works for the IDRC, and has toured Haiti a few times... and the accounts he brings back are absolutely harrowing.

and you don't have to take my word for it... ghead and glance the many compiled reports for yourself... you'll read cheerry heart warming and glowing accounts of 5 year old girls suspected of witchcraft being chained to outside posts like animals to be gang raped by whole villages... Hospitals with stray cats, dogs, pigs and yes hens! rotting corpses that litter the country side and how Haiti no longer prosecutes rape! because the police say its too commonplace!

http://google.idrc.ca/search?PHPSESSID=5c3...q=haiti

Edited September 9, 2009 by lictor616

[Guest American Woman]

judging by the venomous shrieks in this thread alone, an unbiased Martian observer would have to conclude that i'm not the one who's filled with hate and emotional vitriol... what with all the people always putting the onus back unto me to call me either ignorant or "a tool" or stupid, or worthless, contemptible etc...

Notice that I have never called you any of those things.

I'm also growing quite weary of the term "close minded" ... what does it mean specifically? I mean asking impolite questions, trying to jab some sense out of such taboo's as race relations are not synonymous with any definition of "close mindedness" so far as I'm concerned.

Close-minded means seeing things from only one point of view. You don't even stop to consider the validity of the fact that a "month" of black history is seen as a necessity because of all the years and years that history has concentrated on whites, from whites' points of view. Had "history" been all encompassing, there would be no need for Black History Month.

Many Slums near Port Au Prince, and Cité Soleil are quite literally "cesspools"... i'm not saying that to inflame either, or to exaggerate the situation, without sewage plants or garbage disposal, many regions are swimming in human and animal feces and are akin to landfills... or huge trash heaps... again this is not me being "mean and hateful" its an actual statement of fact... I've actually bothered showing you a few ghastly pics... and I swear no one retouched them...

I've seen ghastly pictures before and I've seen some third world countries for myself. Yes, some of the conditions are intolerable, but I'd never refer to the nation as a "cesspool." As I said, there's also beauty and there's the people. I think a "close minded" person only sees the "cesspool."

a good friend of mine works for the IDRC, and has toured Haiti a few times... and the accounts he brings back are absolutely harrowing.

I know people who have worked in Haiti too, and again, "harrowing accounts" do not make it a "cesspool."

and you don't have to take my word for it... ghead and glance the many compiled reports for yourself... you'll read cherry heart warming and glowing accounts of 5 year old girls being chained to outside posts like animals to be gang raped by whole villages... Hospitals with stray cats, dogs, pigs and yes hens! rotting corpses that litter the country side and how Haiti no longer prosecutes rape! because the police say its too commonplace!

You know, that really emphasizes something I just don't get -- how you could have had the experiences you've had, how you can be aware of these things, and still get worked up over something as trivial as "Black History Month." Seems to me you'd be concentrating on something more meaningful and productive.

[charter.rights]

In fact, the one thing we can say for sure is that "white" Europeans never independently developed writing. In fact, they didn't develop metallurgy, agriculture, livestock breeding and the development of the key grain crops. The basic technologies and structures of civilization itself were developed in a band of societies stretching from Mesopotomia and the Sea of China.

Nor did they invent the wheel or gunpowder, which were imported from the middle east and the far east. Europeans stole most of their industry from other cultures. With their tiny brains, early Europeans had a hard time even finding Europe.

[lictor616]

Notice that I have never called you any of those things.

Close-minded means seeing things from only one point of view. You don't even stop to consider the validity of the fact that a "month" of black history is seen as a necessity because of all the years and years that history has concentrated on whites, from whites' points of view. Had "history" been all encompassing, there would be no need for Black History Month.

never said you did... neither did you reprimand the people who actually did ... my suspicion is that you don't care about hate and "anger" as long as its not directed towards your camp.

and ... sorry, but in this post I actually made the exercise of putting the shoe on the other foot so to speak.. and inverting th races to make my case...

I do see the point that Black History is to give relevance to "black achievement" and to give a sense of pride in their own race and roots to blacks... my only objection is that history cannot be used in the same way by whites... I don't understand how you can continue to gloss over that... what I propose is the closest thing to EQUAL TREATMENT one can propose.

history is all encompassing... but for purposes of expedition, we usually don't learn Swahili and Dinka witch doctor medicine- we tend to focus on the most relevant aspects. Lack of concision is a big problem... and either way no worries, most high schoolers get out of high school (well the ones that do.. about 56%) utterly ignorant of history altogether... so there! were much better off aren't we!

[lictor616]

Nor did they invent the wheel or gunpowder, which were imported from the middle east and the far east. Europeans stole most of their industry from other cultures. With their tiny brains, early Europeans had a hard time even finding Europe.

if only Indians and blacks had thought of doing the same!!! with their superior intellects they could have rised up and genocide the "tiny brained" Europeans... oh its true... only Europeans and whites are evil..

but imagine how much happier you would be for that "épuration" of inferior races!, huh charter rights?!

no europeans to stand in the way of your Native World Order

Yes clearly every invention made by europeans was actually stolent directly from a non-european...

and I'm the angry hatefilled bigot ?

[ToadBrother]

"Greek" was independently developed... Doric Ancient Greek, Egypt has a completely different language system... in fact it has so little resemblances that I've actually never heard of any scholar even think about Greek as being an offshoot dialect of Egypt...

On top of being a racist, you're also apparently illiterate. I never said Greek was a dialect of Egyptian. Greek is an early branch off of Indo-European, and has no relationship that has ever been discerned to Afro-Asiatic languages. The Greek alphabet, while an extraordinary innovation, owes a good deal of symbology to Egyptian and Phoenician, which is hardly surprising, since they were pre-eminent powers when the Greeks became literate.

And, as usual, it's a grave oversimplification to even consider the Greeks European. They were during the pre-Classical and Classical periods much more closely aligned to the Middle Eastern world (which is hardly surprising, since their Western Indo-European kin were a bunch of savages at that point).

As for Phoenician... Not sure how that counts as an african language... but anyway... it barely predates Greek...

Again, you're so bloody ignorant you don't even know what the hell I'm talking. The Phoenician script is largely made of Egyptian and Sumerian elements. The language is very distantly related to Egyptian, and much more closely related to Akkadian.

wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek

And many tribes and small foraging nations in Northern Europe had developed written language

Ordovices, the Silures during Iron Age of Northern Europe all had written languages.

Were all receiving any such inspirations from the Romans.

and before that Jastorf culture, ancient Solutreans, had the rudiments of written language in stone and other material.

Where the hell do you get archaeological data from, Hitler's archives? The Jastorfs most certainly weren't literate, and the Solutrean culture was upper Paleothic.

You're living in a fantasy land. The European writing systems (Latin and Cyrillic) were all inherited from the Greeks via the Romans, and the Greek writing systems.

And please do try to keep up. I'm talking about writing systems, not languages.

PS. Slight correction. Cyrillic is directly based on the Greek alphabet, and not the Latin alphabet.

Edited September 9, 2009 by ToadBrother

[DogOnPorch]

Nor did they invent the wheel or gunpowder, which were imported from the middle east and the far east. Europeans stole most of their industry from other cultures. With their tiny brains, early Europeans had a hard time even finding Europe.

Tiny brains...

[ToadBrother]

Yes clearly every invention made by europeans was actually stolent directly from a non-european...

and I'm the angry hatefilled bigot ?

No one so far as I know ever claimed that. But the key inventions of civilization; agriculture, livestock domestication, writing and early metallurgy were not invented by Europeans. There certainly were some key innovations from the Indo-Europeans, like the chariot, but civilization had been brewing for some time between the Tigrus and Euphrates, the Nile, the Indus River and Yellow River for quite some time before the Indo-Europeans first enter the picture as the Hittites and the Aryans who invaded India.

[Peter F]

Your point? Why do we need to point out to Michaelle Jean, Martin Luther King, Malcom X, lol George Washington Carver (the prolific inventor of starch and peanut butter) as Black History then?

I mean cmon! Don't you see the disconnect there?

My point - wich you refuse to acknowledge - is that 'White History' dominates our day-to-day lives here in Canada. and because it isn't 100% White-centric you're upset. Get a life willya?

[lictor616]

On top of being a racist, you're also apparently illiterate. I never said Greek was a dialect of Egyptian. Greek is an early branch off of Indo-European, and has no relationship that has ever been discerned to Afro-Asiatic languages. The Greek alphabet, while an extraordinary innovation, owes a good deal of symbology to Egyptian and Phoenician, which is hardly surprising, since they were pre-eminent powers when the Greeks became literate.

And, as usual, it's a grave oversimplification to even consider the Greeks European. They were during the pre-Classical and Classical periods much more closely aligned to the Middle Eastern world (which is hardly surprising, since their Western Indo-European kin were a bunch of savages at that point).

Again, you're so bloody ignorant you don't even know what the hell I'm talking. The Phoenician script is largely made of Egyptian and Sumerian elements. The language is very distantly related to Egyptian, and much more closely related to Akkadian.

Were all receiving any such inspirations from the Romans.

Where the hell do you get archaeological data from, Hitler's archives? The Jastorfs most certainly weren't literate, and the Solutrean culture was upper Paleothic.

You're living in a fantasy land. The European writing systems (Latin and Cyrillic) were all inherited from the Greeks via the Romans, and the Greek writing systems.

And please do try to keep up. I'm talking about writing systems, not languages.

jeez, you peel away the muck and ad hominems... and you scarcely have anything left! Did I hit a nerve there?

Greek is independantly developed with perhaps tiny borrowings from Phoenician like dialects... this is of course disputed in academia, but assume its correct... now what?

as for "Jastorf" nope... not "hitler's archives" (jeez yet another nazi reference... godwin's law is just how debating is done right?) I actually have a book on Nordic pre-roman history: but lemme quote a liberal favorite: Nation Master: http://www.statemaster.com/encyclopedia/Jastorf-culture

"The cultures of the Pre-Roman Iron Age (and its predecessor the Nordic Bronze Age) is sometimes hypothesized to be the origin of the Germanic languages."

And you say that its a "grave oversimplification to even consider the Greeks EuropeanAnd I don't know if you've ever seen greek statues...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Chariote...ail_of_head.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm...MAN-Relief2.jpg

here's antonius: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Antinoo83.jpg

(Laocoön and His Sons 200 BCE) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Laocoon_...9-1064-1067.jpg

The Diadumenos 460 BCE: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm...Diadumène_1.jpg

Marathon Boy 530 BCE http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm...athon_Boy_3.JPG

http://z.about.com/d/atheism/1/0/t/S/HermesBust-l.jpg

many amny more here: http://www.accd.edu/sac/vat/arthistory/arts1303/Greek3.htm

Not even a madman would claim that these are Semitic or African facial types... they all look EUROPEAN... even NORDIC.

[Bonam]

Nor did they invent the wheel or gunpowder, which were imported from the middle east and the far east. Europeans stole most of their industry from other cultures. With their tiny brains, early Europeans had a hard time even finding Europe.

You make lictor's point better than he ever could. There you sit, claiming Europeans created nothing and only stole from other cultures. You insult them and say they have "tiny brains". Targeted at another racial group, such remarks would get you labeled a racist, and probably banned from these forums. And yet neither you nor any of the other political correctness zealots see the blatant hypocrisy. The brother of toads comes to your defense saying that most "key" inventions were stolen, Peter F and American Woman ignore it, and the forum moderators will most certainly look the other way as well.

The double standard is disgusting.

[g_bambino]

race is very easily ascertainable even to untrained human eyes... you knwo exactly what race Wesley Snipes is...

Right. And what race is Muhammed Ali? Barack Obama? Douglas Cardinal?

[Peter F]

You make lictor's point better than he ever could. There you sit, claiming Europeans created nothing and only stole from other cultures. You insult them and say they have "tiny brains". Targeted at another racial group, such remarks would get you labeled a racist, and probably banned from these forums. And yet neither you nor any of the other political correctness zealots see the blatant hypocrisy. The brother of toads comes to your defense saying that most "key" inventions were stolen, Peter F and American Woman ignore it, and the forum moderators will most certainly look the other way as well.

The double standard is disgusting.

What do you want Bonam? A top-ten list of the best cultures in the world? We can doctor the criteria to ensure White-Nth-American culter gets top billing.

Why is it insulting when somebody says Europeans stole thier ideas from other cultures? Why would Haitians be insulted by Lictor saying their land is a cesspool? They shouldn't be insulted but you Lictor should be?

Yes, the double standard is disgusting

[charter.rights]

You make lictor's point better than he ever could. There you sit, claiming Europeans created nothing and only stole from other cultures. You insult them and say they have "tiny brains". Targeted at another racial group, such remarks would get you labeled a racist, and probably banned from these forums. And yet neither you nor any of the other political correctness zealots see the blatant hypocrisy. The brother of toads comes to your defense saying that most "key" inventions were stolen, Peter F and American Woman ignore it, and the forum moderators will most certainly look the other way as well.

The double standard is disgusting.

Your interest in nothingness is hilarious.

The reality is that the image of the overly powerful pre-contact European is a bloated myth. Europeans were late-comers to that continent - some 10,000 to 20,000 years after humans migrated to the Americas. Without other cultures and their technologies it is highly likely Europeans would not have survived. That is nothing about "race" but about a developing continent that was neither superior or more advanced than the heathens and savages most Europeans condemn.

Lictor666 has no point. That is his only point.

[g_bambino]

My point... is that 'White History' dominates our day-to-day lives here in Canada.

It probably does. But is that an indication of systemic racism, or merely the fact that Europeans were the numerically dominant source of North America's population?

[Bonam]

What do you want Bonam? A top-ten list of the best cultures in the world? We can doctor the criteria to ensure White-Nth-American culter gets top billing.

What do I want? Well, that is an interesting question, with many answers. But in the context of this particular thread and this particular topic of debate which has spanned several threads on these forums now, I would say that getting rid of some of the blatant hypocrisy would be a good start. And no, you can keep your top-ten list to yourself.

Why is it insulting when somebody says Europeans stole thier ideas from other cultures? Why would Haitians be insulted by Lictor saying their land is a cesspool? They shouldn't be insulted but you Lictor should be?

Yes, the double standard is disgusting

It is insulting to say that people of a certain race (Europeans) have "tiny brains", that's what insulting. Of course calling a land a cesspool is also insulting. I happen to disagree with and find many of lictor's statements quite disgusting as well, but he does often expose the hypocrisy among proponents of multiculturalism.

As for stealing ideas from other cultures... who are you kidding. The vast majority of humanity's technological progress has happened in the last 100 years, and that progress has been carried out primarily in Western nations. All the advances of all the millenia that came before pale in comparison to the advances of the 20th century, and the advances of the 21st century will overshadow the 20th a thousandfold again. But that's a whole other topic.

Your interest in nothingness is hilarious.

The reality is that the image of the overly powerful pre-contact European is a bloated myth. Europeans were late-comers to that continent - some 10,000 to 20,000 years after humans migrated to the Americas.

We are not talking about your pet natives right now, give "the Americas" a rest.

Without other cultures and their technologies it is highly likely Europeans would not have survived.

A statement based on nothing and conveying no meaning. Typical. You cannot know either way, the possibilities of alternate history are endless and unpredictable.

[Peter F]

It probably does. But is that an indication of systemic racism, or merely the fact that Europeans were the numerically dominant source of North America's population?

Both, unfortunatly. Although either factor alone would explain it.

Now that you mention it...the second factor could very well cause the first.

So, yes, both.

[DogOnPorch]

One may or may not agree with Lictor on some points and not others. He makes many of the points I make. Other things he says make me angry. But, either way, the attacks on him personally are pretty darn lame...and many of you know my views on Jews and Israel...lol.

I too, have often wondered about 'Black History Month'...or Afro-centric schools...or 'visible minorities' or what-have-you. The standard answer back is Peter F's...every day is 'White History Day'...etc. Mine is that I'm a Volga-German-Canadian..quite a minority here in Canada...just the wrong skin colour, apparently. Yet, I get to carry the baggage of every 'white' culture out there...and you mine if you're 'white'. The whole frickin' concept is quite insane if viewed objectively...

Edited September 9, 2009 by DogOnPorch

[g_bambino]

Both, unfortunatly. Although either factor alone would explain it.

Now that you mention it...the second factor could very well cause the first.

So, yes, both.

Well, the evidence of population numbers is obvious. Where's the same for the racism? If non-"white" (it grates on me to use that term) people contributed relatively little, merely because of numbers, why pretend they contributed more? I mean, if I moved to Japan, I wouldn't expect my kids to learn Scottish history in school and cry racism when they didn't.

[charter.rights]

One may or may not agree with Lictor on some points and not others. He makes many of the points I make. Other things he says make me angry. But, either way, the attacks on him personally are pretty darn lame...and many of you know my views on Jews and Israel...lol.

I too, have often wondered about 'Black History Month'...or Afro-centric schools...or 'visible minorities' or what-have-you. The standard answer back is Peter F's...every day is 'White History Day'...etc. Mine is that I'm a Volga-German-Canadian..quite a minority here in Canada...just the wrong skin colour, apparently. Yet, I get to carry the baggage of every 'white' culture out there...and you mine if you're 'white'. The whole frickin' concept is quite insane if viewed objectively...

Octoberfest......German History Month

[g_bambino]

Octoberfest......German History Month

German isn't a skin colour.

[DogOnPorch]

German isn't a skin colour.

My point exactly. Would you want to carry the baggage of my ancestors? They're making us...

Volga Germans have no connection to the German beer festival. Volga Germans are from the German colony in Southern Russia which was granted by Katherine the Great back in the 1700s.

[charter.rights]

My point exactly. Would you want to carry the baggage of my ancestors? They're making us...

Volga Germans have no connection to the German beer festival. Volga Germans are from the German colony in Southern Russia which was granted by Katherine the Great back in the 1700s.

Ah...Duskie Ruskies?