"Teaching Holocaust is a war Crime"

[DogOnPorch]

ah. You're still pissed about your google FUp.

Hardly...I was right...you were wrong.

[JB Globe]

I find this to be completely outrageous and I would hope that the UN in all of its wisdom will put an end to this through sanctions or whatever means they have at their disposal.

We cannot and should not as a society put up with this type of negative attention to an atrocity. We must always remember what can happen when an ideologue gains power through populist means no matter what time we currently live in.

Disgusting.

If anything, if Palestinian kids learned about the Holocaust they would understand better why Israelis act the way they do, and they may come up with better strategies for achieving independence as a result of it.

But those strategies would probably not include terrorism, but rather civil disobedience, which would put Hamas out in the cold. Seems like self-preservation here.

Also, while I wouldn't put it in the same category, have you seen what Israeli schools teach about Palestinians? I'll answer that for you - you haven't seen it because it doesn't exist - the textbooks don't even acknowledge that "Palestinians" exist. This is widely known in Palestine, and doesn't exactly motivate people to learn about Jewish history when their own is being denied.

Once again, we have a tit-for-tat going on. Who's going to be the bigger man? Or are they going to continue acting like school children?

[Bonam]

Also, while I wouldn't put it in the same category, have you seen what Israeli schools teach about Palestinians? I'll answer that for you - you haven't seen it because it doesn't exist - the textbooks don't even acknowledge that "Palestinians" exist. This is widely known in Palestine, and doesn't exactly motivate people to learn about Jewish history when their own is being denied.

This claim about Israeli textbooks is often made by critics of Israel, with absolutely no evidence to back it up. Do you have a name of a textbook that ignores Palestinians when they should be mentioned? Do you have a passage, a page, that misrepresents history in such a way? A translation perhaps? A year of publication?

[naomiglover]

This claim about Israeli textbooks is often made by critics of Israel, with absolutely no evidence to back it up. Do you have a name of a textbook that ignores Palestinians when they should be mentioned? Do you have a passage, a page, that misrepresents history in such a way? A translation perhaps? A year of publication?

Hello Bonam. As someone who has lived and studied in Israel for almost a decade, I can confirm that Israeli textbooks are quite controversial. I was young back then so I accepted what was in front of me and never thought twice about seeing the map of Israel covering all of Israel and the West Bank as being wrong. Before moving back to Canada, I remember there were talks about the racism in these books and some people were trying to push for a change. I'm not there now, so I don't know how much change has been implemented in the past 15 years. I am, however, curious and will look into it.

I did a quick search and came up to this: http://www.wrmea.com/backissues/0999/9909019.html

[Bonam]

Hello Bonam. As someone who has lived and studied in Israel for almost a decade, I can confirm that Israeli textbooks are quite controversial. I was young back then so I accepted what was in front of me and never thought twice about seeing the map of Israel covering all of Israel and the West Bank as being wrong.

What is wrong with that? The West Bank is presently a territory of Israel. If and when a formal peace agreement is reached and an independent Palestinian state is set up, the maps will be revised. Is it wrong that maps of Russia include Chechnya? Is it wrong that maps of China include Tibet? Is it wrong that maps of Canada include Quebec?

I did a quick search and came up to this: http://www.wrmea.com/backissues/0999/9909019.html

Some passages from your source:

The early textbooks tended to describe acts of Arabs as hostile, deviant, cruel, immoral, unfair, with the intention to hurt Jews and to annihilate the State of Israel.

In what way is this incorrect? In 1948 the Arabs invaded the newly formed state with the intent to hurt Jews and annihilate the State of Israel. This was certainly hostile and cruel and immoral. Should Israeli textbooks gloss this over for the benefit of the Arabs?

Bar-Tal pointed out that Israeli textbooks continue to present Jews as industrious, brave and determined to cope with the difficulties of “improving the country in ways they believe the Arabs are incapable of.”

How else should a country portray its own people? Is it wrong to believe that one is brave, industrious, and determined? Should they perhaps instead teach guilt and self-hatred?

Hebrew-language geography books from the 1950s through 1970s focused on the glory of Israel’s ancient past and how the land was “neglected and destroyed” by the Arabs until the Jews returned from their forced exile and revived it “with the help of the Zionist movement.”

Every nation in the world that has an ancient past glorifies it. Israel is no different. The pyramids are a source of pride to Egypt even though they hold no relation to its current Islamic faith and were constructed with slave labor. China is proud of its thousands of years of history as a continuous civilization, despite the fact that the monarchy that ruled it for millenia is fundamentally at odds with its current communist principles. Russians take pride in the culture and achievements of their civilization, even when the society around them crumbled to ruins during the fall of the Soviet Union. People point to the achievements of Islamic civilization during the middle ages despite the barbarism that a large portion of that civilization has since descended into. Why should Israel forsake and forget its past?

As for the land being neglected and destroyed... well, wasn't it? What was the state of the land and of the people living on it? They were poor and the land was unproductive. The Jews came and used their knowledge of technology and science and built greenhouses, irrigation, farmed the desert, built great cities, excavated ancient cultural sites. Again, what is wrong with that, and why should it not be included in textbooks?

“The message was that the Palestinians were primitive and neglected the country and did not cultivate the land.”

True again, although perhaps politically incorrect. Many of the Arabs lived as nomads or barely scraped a living.

“When I was in high school 12 years ago, the date ‘1948’ barely appeared in any textbooks except for a mention that there was a conflict, Palestinians refused to accept a U.N. solution and ran away instead,”

I find that extremely hard to believe. The events of 1948 created the state of Israel, it was its war of independence. The victory is commemorated yearly with Israel's national day. Every kid in Israel knows about 1948. The Palestinians did refuse to accept the UN resolution, and many of them did indeed flee, at the urging of their leaders. Again, what's wrong with saying so?

“Today the idea communicated to schoolchildren is basically the same: there are winners and losers in every conflict.

That seems like a sound enough idea to communicate. It is simple truth. In a country surrounded by enemies it is important to learn true things, rather than convenient platitudes like schoolchildren here are taught.

Atamneh explained that textbooks used by the nearly one million Arab Israelis (one-fifth of Israel’s population) are in Arabic but are written by and issued from the Israeli Ministry of Education, where Palestinians have no influence or input.

Israel is one country and thus has one curriculum. Arab citizens of Israel can be and are elected to the government and thus can be part of its various ministries and thus have influence and input. Why would you expect the Arabic textbooks to say different things than the Hebrew textbooks? That would only create a disagreement on what constitutes history between Israel's future Jewish and Arab populations, and that is not what we want. They should both learn the same thing, so that when they debate the conflict, they can at least agree on the facts if not the reasons and justifications and solutions. Would you expect black children in the US to get to use different textbooks than white children? Should Chinese children in Canada have separate textbooks? The answer is no. Why then should Arab children in Israel have different textbooks?

there is no such thing as affirmative action in Israel.”

Glad to hear it. Affirmative action is one of the greatest mistakes that we in the West are making.

In addition, there are no Arabic-language universities in Israel. Haifa University, Atamneh points out, has had a steady 20 percent Arab student population for the past 20 years. “How can that figure have remained the same after all these years when the population in the north [of Israel] has grown to over 50 percent Arab?”

There are no Chinese-language universities in Vancouver even though we have so many Chinese people. The outrage!

Anyway there's plenty more. My opinion of the article is that it takes a bunch of simple facts and obvious things that are taken for granted and weaves them together to try to present it as something sinister. It is propaganda of the most subversive sort. Taking the truth and twisting it around to make it into something evil.

[naomiglover]

What is wrong with that? The West Bank is presently a territory of Israel. If and when a formal peace agreement is reached and an independent Palestinian state is set up, the maps will be revised. Is it wrong that maps of Russia include Chechnya? Is it wrong that maps of China include Tibet? Is it wrong that maps of Canada include Quebec?

The West Bank is not a territory of Israel. I'm not sure where you got that from.

[Bonam]

The West Bank is not a territory of Israel. I'm not sure where you got that from.

Of course it is. Israel took it over in 1967, along with Gaza and the Sinai. The Sinai has since been returned to Egypt. No other sovereign power controls the West Bank, control over it has not been relinquished to any other state. Palestinians themselves refer to it as "the occupied territories".

By the way, no response to any of the other points? I take it you agree?

[DogOnPorch]

...and, of course before that...the place was Jordanian...a claim they finally gave up in 1988.

[naomiglover]

Of course it is. Israel took it over in 1967, along with Gaza and the Sinai. The Sinai has since been returned to Egypt. No other sovereign power controls the West Bank, control over it has not been relinquished to any other state. Palestinians themselves refer to it as "the occupied territories".

By the way, no response to any of the other points? I take it you agree?

Bonam, the west bank is not a territory of Israel. It does not belong to Israel. Under international law, Israel has a defined border and in their textbooks, at least when I lived in Israel, Israel did not use the defined International border as its borders. This is wrong.

I am not going to address any of your other points because if you cannot agree to a simple internationally recognized fact, that the West Bank does not belong to Israel and that Israel's official borders does not extend beyond the green zone, then I don't believe I want to engage in a debate with you.

[DogOnPorch]

Everyone will agree with you.

http://www.rabble.ca/babble/

Here you're going to get opinions from across the spectrum...yours included.

[Bonam]

Bonam, the west bank is not a territory of Israel. It does not belong to Israel. Under international law, Israel has a defined border and in their textbooks, at least when I lived in Israel, Israel did not use the defined International border as its borders. This is wrong.

Internationally recognized borders? We are talking about Israeli schools here, not UN schools. Israeli books, not UN books. Israel controls the West Bank. The West Bank is an occupied territory of Israel. It may form part of an independent state in the future, and I do hope that it does, but it has not yet.

I am not going to address any of your other points because if you cannot agree to a simple internationally recognized fact, that the West Bank does not belong to Israel and that Israel's official borders does not extend beyond the green zone, then I don't believe I want to engage in a debate with you.

A fact is a fact, it does not need to be "internatially recognized". If something is true, it does not need the UN to proclaim it to be so. 2 and 2 is 4 whatever the UN says, that is a fact. The West Bank is a territory of Israel. It may not "belong" to Israel in the sense that Israel should retain control of it in perpetuity, it may not be part of it's "official" borders as declared by the UN, but Israel currently exercises control over the West Bank and has for the last 42 years.

On a map showing all the lands over which the State of Israel has control, the West Bank presently has every reason to be included. In can, however, be separated and marked in some way, to indicate the difference in its status when compared with Israel proper, and many maps do indeed show it in this way. But that is not necessary, depending on the detail level of the map.

Heck, I have a random globe here, manufactured in China in 1993, it shows Israel including both the West Bank and Gaza. Is the company that manufactured this globe part of an evil Zionist conspiracy to usurp Palestinian land? No, they just make maps based on the reality of the situation.

Of course, if these simple statements so revile you that you'd rather not engage in further debate, that's up to you.

[naomiglover]

Internationally recognized borders? We are talking about Israeli schools here, not UN schools.

Hi bonam. Israel is a signatory to these rules as are majority of other nations.

Anyway, I'm not feeling good about this conversation as it seems like you're trying to change facts and I'm not in the mood to debate whether international law applies to Israel or not. If you want to believe that Israel is above international law, then go ahead and debate it with someone else.

[Bonam]

Hi bonam. Israel is a signatory to these rules as are majority of other nations.

Anyway, I'm not feeling good about this conversation as it seems like you're trying to change facts and I'm not in the mood to debate whether international law applies to Israel or not. If you want to believe that Israel is above international law, then go ahead and debate it with someone else.

Now you are just purposefully misinterpreting what I said. I didn't say it was "above" international law. I said that the West Bank is presently controlled by Israel; thus it is an occupied territory of Israel. I don't see which part of this statement is controversial. But of course if you don't "feel good" when met with someone who happens to disagree with you, what can I say, that's up to you. You'll need to get used to it though if you plan to debate on these forums, disagreement is the norm, not the exception.

[DogOnPorch]

Speaking of Holocaust denial...though this was somewhat under reported in Canada...Ahmedinnerjacket is up to his ol' tricks again.

"The very existence of this regime is an insult to the dignity of the people," the hardline Ahmadinejad said of Iran's arch-foe Israel.

"They (the Western powers) launched the myth of the Holocaust. They lied, they put on a show and then they support the Jews.

"If as you claim the Holocaust is true, why can a study not be allowed?" he said to chants of "Death to Israel" from the crowd gathered for the annual display of solidarity with the Palestinians.

"The pretext for establishing the Zionist regime is a lie... a lie which relies on an unreliable claim, a mythical claim, and the occupation of Palestine has nothing to do with the Holocaust," he added.

"This claim is corrupt and the pretext is corrupt. This (the Israeli) regime's days are numbered and it is on its way to collapse. This regime is dying."

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/artic...pB-FMjG04zuPwcA

Oh, yay...

[Argus]

Hi bonam. Israel is a signatory to these rules as are majority of other nations.

Anyway, I'm not feeling good about this conversation as it seems like you're trying to change facts and I'm not in the mood to debate whether international law applies to Israel or not. If you want to believe that Israel is above international law, then go ahead and debate it with someone else.

You are arguing nonsense. No one has proclaimed the West bank as a part of Israel. OTherwise it wouldn't be called a "territory" or, if you prefer, an "occupied territory". Are you so filled with bile about Israel you cannot even recognize reality when it smacks you in the face? Israel has occupied and exercised control over the West Bank since before most of its inhabitants were born. That's reality, and no amount of denial will make it any different.

Recognizing that does not imply that you believe the occupation of that territory is legal.

[Argus]

Speaking of Holocaust denial...though this was somewhat under reported in Canada...Ahmedinnerjacket is up to his ol' tricks again.

Oh, yay...

Another great and noble leader of the Muslim peoples...

[DogOnPorch]

Another great and noble leader of the Muslim peoples...

I'd give it its own thread...but....

Nahhhhh...he's such a moog.

[DogOnPorch]

More Holocaust fun...

On the 68th anniversary of the Babi Yar/Бабин Яр massacre, the mayor of Kiev grabs a brain and bows to world pressure to not build a hotel on the site (a ravine: Яр) where over 100,000 were shot by the SS and their Ukrainian cohorts...30,000+ in a single 36 hour go. The hotel was one of many planned to house 2012 Euro-cup soccer fans. Morons. Well...not many Jews living in Kiev these days...if any...waste of land, eh?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8274043.stm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babi_Yar

Edited October 3, 2009 by DogOnPorch