PM to appoint Tory insiders to Senate

Mr.Canada · August 31, 2009

He cannot change the Senate unless he gets the provinces to agree which they do not. Please read your Constitution.
He can't force elections, term limits or equal representation without the provinces agreeing. If you suggesting he can, then you are mistaken.

If you read my earlier post you would see that I said that. Since the provinces won't re open it who care's. Harper ties to get Senate reform and is blocked at every turn by the liberal elite.

g_bambino · August 31, 2009

Harper ties to get Senate reform and is blocked at every turn by the liberal elite.

I doubt the "Liberal elite" are the only ones blocking Harper's haphazard moves in regards to the Senate. Constitutional reform has far-reaching and long-term effects, and so shouldn't be done merely for immediate political expediency.

jdobbin · August 31, 2009

Just so I clearly understand - these people with political experience - you would choose Liberals?

Certainly. And Tories and Greens and NDP if they would serve.

It would be interesting to see what the NDP would do if in government. They'd face the same problems of Senate reform requiring Constitutional talks, especially if abolition was to take place.

I suppose they could pick non-political people but there still is a government leader in the house, etc. How would they deal with the politics?

If they didn't make an appointment, the Governor General would make it for them. If they picked people they thought would be good, they'd be forbidden to caucus with the NDP. Quite the mess.

I would try to pick people who could acually make legislation better and not simply be a rubberstamp.

jdobbin · August 31, 2009

If you read my earlier post you would see that I said that. Since the provinces won't re open it who care's. Harper ties to get Senate reform and is blocked at every turn by the liberal elite.

Is it those Jewish people and immigrants who are doing it?

Mr.Canada · August 31, 2009

Is it those Jewish people and immigrants who are doing it?

The biggest obstacle people like me have isn't minorities and immigrants it's white liberals. If it wasn't for white liberals Canada would be much the same as it was in the 50's...we're worse off if you ask me.

Even in times when Canadians are losing jobs we still have massive immigration, thousands a day that get placed on the public dole. I don't get it.

jdobbin · September 1, 2009

The biggest obstacle people like me have isn't minorities and immigrants it's white liberals. If it wasn't for white liberals Canada would be much the same as it was in the 50's...we're worse off if you ask me.

What was it about the 1950s that you liked?

Even in times when Canadians are losing jobs we still have massive immigration, thousands a day that get placed on the public dole. I don't get it.

Guess you should stop voting Tory. They have increased it since getting into office.

g_bambino · September 1, 2009

If it wasn't for white liberals Canada would be much the same as it was in the 50's...we're worse off if you ask me.

In the 50s, it was understood that an appointed upper chamber wasn't an affront to democracy or anyone's freedom. Seems like white, libertarian, neo-conservatives are amongst those agitating for a further departure from 1950s Canada.

madmax · September 1, 2009

I doubt the "Liberal elite" are the only ones blocking Harper's haphazard moves in regards to the Senate. Constitutional reform has far-reaching and long-term effects, and so shouldn't be done merely for immediate political expediency.

Then you accept and support Harpers patronage appointments and their role in the Senate. Which is fine for those who want to maintain the same corrupt system .

Smallc · September 1, 2009

Corrupt? How is it corrupt? They followed the Constitution and the law. They may not have been the best picks, but there's nothing corrupt about it.

madmax · September 1, 2009

Corrupt? How is it corrupt? They followed the Constitution and the law. They may not have been the best picks, but there's nothing corrupt about it.

Enjoy

Some

Definitions of corrupt on the Web:

corrupt morally

lacking in integrity;

exchange for favors or influence;

crooked: not straight; dishonest or immoral or evasive

cast doubt upon;

touched by rot or decay;

Smallc · September 1, 2009

None of those fit the definition. It's not the institutions fault if people don't understand it's purpose and why it's been a good thing up until now (and will probably continue to be).

madmax · September 1, 2009

None of those fit the definition. It's not the institutions fault if people don't understand it's purpose and why it's been a good thing up until now (and will probably continue to be).

Up until now???

The bad apples just arrived?

Smallc · September 1, 2009

No, they haven't arrived. As I said it will probably continue to operate as designed. That's not to say that I like when people appoint hacks there rather than very qualified people, but overall, the chamber isn't doing anything that it isn't supposed to and is working as designed.

g_bambino · September 1, 2009

Then you accept and support Harpers patronage appointments and their role in the Senate. Which is fine for those who want to maintain the same corrupt system .

Not necessarily; you see, I adhere to a slightly more complex view of the world than the juvenile "you're either with us or against us" stance. I may not approve of the quality of these latest appointments (I've commented neither way, so far), but I do support the de-politicized role of the Senate, which the appointment process helps maintain. I don't see any corruption taking place, and it's the responsibility of the Commons, as elected representatives of the people, to bring down the government over corruption, should there be any.

fellowtraveller · September 2, 2009

I don't imagine it, it actually happens. Watch a Senate Committee. Their work is not done in a very partisan manner.

Their work is makework, other than obstructing movement of legislation passed by the House.

The Senate either needs to be abolished entirely, or made into a purposeful and useful arm of government.

It is a sad, expensive joke on all of us now.

fellowtraveller · September 2, 2009

"

That's not to say that I like when people appoint hacks there rather than very qualified people, but overall, the chamber isn't doing anything that it isn't supposed to and is working as designed.

It was designed to protect the interests of regions.

Explain how it does that now.

g_bambino · September 2, 2009

Their work is makework, other than obstructing movement of legislation passed by the House.

Reviewing potential legislation from a less partisan standpoint, free of the circus of politicking, is "makework"? My, you certainly must believe our MPs to all be good and wholesome people who put forward and try to pass bills solely for the collective benefit of the nation, with nary a thought of their personal, or their party's, gains in mind. Riiiight...

g_bambino · September 2, 2009

It was designed to protect the interests of regions.
Explain how it does that now.

Explain how abolishing it will do that, ever.

madmax · September 2, 2009

Explain how abolishing it will do that, ever.

Better idea.

Elect a Liberal government and they can appoint Liberal Partisan Hacks.

The Senate: Working Hard for Canadians 72 days a year.

jdobbin · September 2, 2009

Better idea.

Elect an NDP government and see them open the Constitution only to find the provinces don't agree and that everyone and their dog wants other areas talked about. Have that happen around two or more years with the economy in the dumps and separation at an all time high. Then see NDP reduced to two seats.

That sounds like a plan.

madmax · September 2, 2009

Elect an NDP government and see them open the Constitution only to find the provinces don't agree and that everyone and their dog wants other areas talked about. Have that happen around two or more years with the economy in the dumps and separation at an all time high. That sounds like a plan.

Same goes for Senate Reform... thus you support status quo and can Enjoy Harpers appointments to your hearts content.

As for the Economy in the dumps.. the Liberals have voted against EI reform and when they voted for it, they walked away.

As for the Economy, the Liberal and Conservative vision on the Economy is the same.

g_bambino · September 2, 2009

The Senate: Working Hard for Canadians 72 days a year.

You know, it's rather masochistic of you to dream up fantasies that make you angry.

jdobbin · September 2, 2009

Same goes for Senate Reform... thus you support status quo and can Enjoy Harpers appointments to your hearts content.

I have no problems in him making appointments.

I certainly like to point out that he said he would do it differently and promised reform.

As for the Economy in the dumps.. the Liberals have voted against EI reform and when they voted for it, they walked away.

The economy would be in Depression if the NDP opened the Constitution.

The Liberals screwed up on EI. You can vote for the NDP if you want it done right. And for the Senate too.

But then don't let me say I didn't warn you about opening the Constitution and thinking it will be a walk in the park.

As for the Economy, the Liberal and Conservative vision on the Economy is the same.

Except the Tories don't want to talk about the deficit.

madmax · September 2, 2009

The economy would be in Depression if the NDP opened the Constitution.

The Constitution was created during a depression by Trudeau. The Constitution was tinkered with by Mulroney twice, once in an upturn and once in a downturn.

Opening up the Constitution is just an ugly act. An act people would prefer to avoid, then the LOUDEST people to scream when the CPC appoints are LIBERALS and the LOUDEST people to scream when the LPC appoints are CONSERVATIVES.

You started this thread, because you wanted it to be an issue. Now you wish it to go away because you have a new set of talking points for the upcoming Election showdown.

The Economy is in a recession all on its own.

However, if we are going to open the constitution, when the shit hits the fan, Abolition will find its way to the top of the chart amongst the publice once the squabbling begins.

Traditional Liberals enjoy their patronage appointments and having the cow pasture handy for their friends. They do not like it when the Conservatives sneak in and milk it.

jdobbin · September 2, 2009

The Constitution was created during a depression by Trudeau. The Constitution was tinkered with by Mulroney twice, once in an upturn and once in a downturn.

And Trudeau and Mulroney's party's were thoroughly punished for in the aftermath of their tinkering.

Opening up the Constitution is just an ugly act. An act people would prefer to avoid, then the LOUDEST people to scream when the CPC appoints are LIBERALS and the LOUDEST people to scream when the LPC appoints are CONSERVATIVES.

I have no problem if Harper appoints Tories. I have a problem saying that he was going to do something different or that he was unilaterally going to chance the Senate.

You started this thread, because you wanted it to be an issue. Now you wish it to go away because you have a new set of talking points for the upcoming Election showdown.

I don't want it to go away.

Talk all you want.

Until now, you haven't mentioned how messy opening the Constitution will be. I'd like to avoid that.

I have no problem with appointments to the Senate. It is supposed to be a political institution. I do have problems when someone says they are not going to do what they said the Liberals did with the Senate. I have problems promising reform without recognizing provincial rights on the issue. I have problems with people thinking it will be easy even if it is abolition.

The Economy is in a recession all on its own.

And opening the Constitution usually affects interest rates a few percentage points as has been shown in a variety of studies. It was the instability premium. We paid for it with Trudeau and with Mulroney. Now you want us to pay for it with Layton?

However, if we are going to open the constitution, when the shit hits the fan, Abolition will find its way to the top of the chart amongst the publice once the squabbling begins.

No doubt. And several other Constitutional areas will crop up as well.

Traditional Liberals enjoy their patronage appointments and having the cow pasture handy for their friends. They do not like it when the Conservatives sneak in and milk it.

And some other political persuasions say they want to abolish the Senate but don't admit that it could result in the country tearing itself apart of a variety of issues.