Tory MPs blame provinces for tax harmonization

[jdobbin]

The majority of people will not be your situation and their objections are not justified because on average they will not being paying more tax.

Do you have more sympathy for people who opposed the carbon tax for the same reasons now?

I think I told you back then that the political parties are often punished for any type of tax they propose. There are rare exceptions. The NDP found no traction going after the provincial Liberals in B.C.

In this case, we now see Tories on the federal side scared out of their minds that they will be linked to this tax.

[August1991]

As I said, I know for me it means that I charge my clients more because I only have GST presently. I can't help think that will hurt businesses.

IOW, you have had a freebie up until now. Indirectly, other taxpayers have subsidized your work.

Ther GST (or HST) levels the playing field. It doesn't play favourites or slant private choices. It makes the picture plain.

The old federal Manufacturer's Sales Tax and Provincial sales taxes don't do that; they distort retail prices.

This is a hard argument to make but Riverwind has made a good job of it.

[jdobbin]

IOW, you have had a freebie up until now. Indirectly, other taxpayers have subsidized your work.

Ther GST (or HST) levels the playing field. It doesn't play favourites or slant private choices. It makes the picture plain.

It does play favourites just as the GST does since it too has exemptions.

The old federal Manufacturer's Sales Tax and Provincial sales taxes don't do that; they distort retail prices.

This is a hard argument to make but Riverwind has made a good job of it.

And I have made the argument that the Tories are trying to run away from their part in pushing HST. It helped defeat one government already and was reversed. Don't be surprised if there is a backlash.

[Keepitsimple]

And I have made the argument that the Tories are trying to run away from their part in pushing HST. It helped defeat one government already and was reversed. Don't be surprised if there is a backlash.

To use the terms of an infamous poster "I don't buy that" or alternately, "that doesn't wash". Flaherty has been pushing for well over a year to encourage provinces to adopt HST - he even got into a big fight with Ontario (last place to invest) and brought up HST as part of his reasons. The Conservatives have put aside billions to help provinces make the transition. But at the end of the day, each province has to make their own decision. The Feds are encouraging HST but the decision is solely that of each Province and once made, the province decides how to implement HST - what's exempt, what's not. And once that decision is made and the transition funds are committed to, the Feds should step back and let the Provinces do their job......and that's what the Feds are doing. Do you think otherwise? Do you think that somehow the Feds should intrude in an area of Provincial juristiction?

[jdobbin]

To use the terms of an infamous poster "I don't buy that" or alternately, "that doesn't wash". Flaherty has been pushing for well over a year to encourage provinces to adopt HST - he even got into a big fight with Ontario (last place to invest) and brought up HST as part of his reasons.

And yet many Conservatives are saying they have nothing to do HST. This was already shown in the link. You don't think that's a wash in terms of their argument?

The Conservatives have put aside billions to help provinces make the transition. But at the end of the day, each province has to make their own decision. The Feds are encouraging HST but the decision is solely that of each Province and once made, the province decides how to implement HST - what's exempt, what's not. And once that decision is made and the transition funds are committed to, the Feds should step back and let the Provinces do their job......and that's what the Feds are doing. Do you think otherwise? Do you think that somehow the Feds should intrude in an area of Provincial juristiction?

Do you think it is the province of Ontario that approached the Feds on HST like Ontario Conservatives are insisting and that HST has nothing to do with them? Do you think they are opposed to HST like they are trying to suggest?

[Riverwind]

Do you think they are opposed to HST like they are trying to suggest?

No competent politician should be opposed to the HST. In fact, any politician that says they don't understand the theoretical benefits to introducing it deserves redicule. The only question is whether they feel they can sell it to a skeptical public.

At the end of the day it is the provincial government who makes the political decision to do what is right vs. what might be popular. It does not make a difference whether the conservative government encouraged the move that does not make them responsible for the political decision.

[capricorn]

Flaherty has been pushing for well over a year to encourage provinces to adopt HST - he even got into a big fight with Ontario (last place to invest) and brought up HST as part of his reasons. The Conservatives have put aside billions to help provinces make the transition.

Maybe the feds are thinking, in the long run this expenditure will be recouped. The HST means more money flowing into provincial treasuries and healthier provincial balance sheets. I'm guessing here, but I would think that any reduction in, or elimination of provincial deficits eventually means reduced transfer payments.

[capricorn]

No competent politician should be opposed to the HST.

The opposition often criticizes government initiatives regardless of their merit. Isn't that what we always hear? The opposition's job is to oppose.

The only question is whether they feel they can sell it to a skeptical public.

It is the ruling government that has to do the selling of the HST. Yes, the provincial Tories have their own selling to do and they are by playing up the downside to the HST.

Progressive Conservative leader Tim Hudak said the Liberal plan to create a harmonized sales tax is a “massive tax grab” that won’t help Ontario’s struggling economy.

The Tories say that the new tax, which will add the 8% provincial sales tax to previously untaxed items, will add up to $1,300 to the cost of buying the average home in Kingston.

That could put several families off of buying a new home, especially first-time buyers, Hudak said.

With the automotive sector drowning in red ink and private industries having a rough time, the province needs the housing and construction sector “to be firing on all cylinders” to drive the economy, he said.

“A tax hike at any time is bad economics. A tax hike in bad economic times will kill jobs and hurt families,” Hudak said.

“During these tough economic times, I can’t believe our current government would contemplate bringing in a massive tax hike.”

http://www.thewhig.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1700874

The Ontario HST it is just one more thing they can hammer McGuinty with.

[Keepitsimple]

Do you think it is the province of Ontario that approached the Feds on HST like Ontario Conservatives are insisting and that HST has nothing to do with them? Do you think they are opposed to HST like they are trying to suggest?

The decision to adopt HST - or not, is entirely up to the Provincial government. McGuinty can pull the plug whenever he wants if he gets cold feet. Anyone who understands the issue knows that it's good for the economy but a very tough political sell. The Conservatives are approaching HST from an economical view.....now McGuinty, like the other premiers before him, have to stickhandle through the politics.

As for Conservatives distancing themselves from the BC and Ontario decisions - as I said, it's a Provincial decision and in fact, the Feds are making it much easier for these Provinces with the lucrative transition funding. McGuinty's using it to send everyone a $1000 cheque.

[jdobbin]

As for Conservatives distancing themselves from the BC and Ontario decisions - as I said, it's a Provincial decision and in fact, the Feds are making it much easier for these Provinces with the lucrative transition funding. McGuinty's using it to send everyone a $1000 cheque.

And I'm saying they can run but they can't hide. It is a federal initiative and the Tories have been pushing it. If some Tory MPs are opposed as Ontario residents, they should say so.

[jdobbin]

At the end of the day it is the provincial government who makes the political decision to do what is right vs. what might be popular. It does not make a difference whether the conservative government encouraged the move that does not make them responsible for the political decision.

It does make a difference who is pushing the program. If Tories on the federal side believe it is good, they should say so and stop playing footsie with their provincial counterparts.

[Riverwind]

It does make a difference who is pushing the program. If Tories on the federal side believe it is good, they should say so and stop playing footsie with their provincial counterparts.

And I suppose you think they should admit to eating kittens too. They put the federal funds up to assist. That makes it clear they wanted the provinces to harmonize but the political decision was the province's alone. Reporters fishing for quotes that can be misconstrued from Tory MPs should not be surprised they don't get any. Sometimes saying nothing is better than trying to explain a complex nuance only to have it deliberately misinterpresented by the media. Edited August 23, 2009 by Riverwind

[Wild Bill]

And I suppose you think they should admit to eating kittens too. They put the federal funds up to assist. That makes it clear they wanted the provinces to harmonize but the political decision was the province's alone. Reporters fishing for quotes that can be misconstrued from Tory MPs should not be surprised they don't get any. Sometimes saying nothing is better than trying to explain a complex nuance only to have it deliberately misinterpresented by the media.

Once in a while I find myself agreeing with jdobbin! The feds absolutely want to harmonize the taxes! It will give them more revenue! They are well aware that it could hurt them politically. The incentives appear to me to be a bribe to get the provinces to take the lead. That way the feds will escape the heat at the polls.

If the feds truly thought this was so great they would be front and centre taking credit. That's politics!

[madmax]

Maybe the feds are thinking, in the long run this expenditure will be recouped. The HST means more money flowing into provincial treasuries and healthier provincial balance sheets. I'm guessing here, but I would think that any reduction in, or elimination of provincial deficits eventually means reduced transfer payments.

The GST was to fix all deficits, and provide healthier balance sheets. Of course it would, it was another tax that was broad and all encompassing. However, as governments are prone to do. They give back monies in the form of corporate welfare, and the balances sheets go for shiite.

The HST is an opportunity for both the Federal Government and Provincial Government to increase their revenues.

[madmax]

As for Conservatives distancing themselves from the BC and Ontario decisions - as I said, it's a Provincial decision and in fact, the Feds are making it much easier for these Provinces with the lucrative transition funding. McGuinty's using it to send everyone a $1000 cheque.

And he believes passing on the bribe will work.

[madmax]

If the feds truly thought this was so great they would be front and centre taking credit. That's politics!

Riverwind makes strong arguments in tax policy. I still disagree with him because I can . However, from a government point of view, all governments look for ways to pick our pockets, be it GST, PST, HST, CST, or Individual USER fees, the end of the day the government needs our money. Thus TAX and SPEND or TAX and GIVEAWAY may be the only differences in choice that a government makes. However, few governments have successfully campaigned on a Tax Increase.

Dion Failed with the Carbon Tax

The 1993 PCs were eliminated because of the GST among other things

Grant Devine was creamed with his support for the HST... remember he needed ALOT of money....

The NS Liberals were tossed in a heap with their implementation of the HST.

However...

the Campbell Liberals Prevailed in Campaigning on the Carbon Tax... Yet wouldn't dare mention HST during the recent election campaign.

McGuinty Liberals campaigned and won on the Health Care Tax, people supported it.

Yet I don't believe the Harper Conservatives could gain any ground in publicly pressing forward the HST or taking credit for it.

Sure they are behind the push, yet they will not go front and centre with it. The only thing hypocritical about this is the CPC bashing the Provinces who are considering implementing it.

If the Conservatives Don't believe in the HST, they shouldn't be tossing money to the PRovinces to implement it.

[jdobbin]

And I suppose you think they should admit to eating kittens too. They put the federal funds up to assist. That makes it clear they wanted the provinces to harmonize but the political decision was the province's alone. Reporters fishing for quotes that can be misconstrued from Tory MPs should not be surprised they don't get any. Sometimes saying nothing is better than trying to explain a complex nuance only to have it deliberately misinterpresented by the media.

You see, now you are just acting ridiculous.

Tory MPs are taking the opportunity to bash provinces that looks to do what their own government wants them to do and all you do is act cute and say they won't admit to eating kittens?

Stop the bashing if HST is part of Tory government policy. They are trying to have it both ways by appearing to be opposed while letting their government push it through with funds to ensure it happens.

[Keepitsimple]

Stop the bashing if HST is part of Tory government policy. They are trying to have it both ways by appearing to be opposed while letting their government push it through with funds to ensure it happens.

Flaherty made it clear that this was something that the Feds want.....and all of business backs him up - and most provinces have already gone ahead. Can you provide any evidence that a Tory MP is bashing his own government? All any local Tory MP has said is "that's a decision made by the Province".....and that's not "bashing" as you call it - it's a fact. As much as you would like to demonize the Tories (much like the article you posted), it would be inappropriate for Federal MP's to stand on either side of this issue because it is such a volatile one for the electorate. They've openly encouraged it, provided funding, and then stepped back and allowed the Province to make a decision. The tough part is that McGuinty has run Ontario's tax policy into the ground and he really has no choice but to do much of what Flaherty wanted them to do in the first place. McGuinty dug his own grave in creating a tax-prohibitive business climate.....the Feds are wise to steer clear of getting involved.

[jdobbin]

Flaherty made it clear that this was something that the Feds want.....and all of business backs him up - and most provinces have already gone ahead. Can you provide any evidence that a Tory MP is bashing his own government? All any local Tory MP has said is "that's a decision made by the Province".....and that's not "bashing" as you call it - it's a fact. As much as you would like to demonize the Tories (much like the article you posted), it would be inappropriate for Federal MP's to stand on either side of this issue because it is such a volatile one for the electorate. They've openly encouraged it, provided funding, and then stepped back and allowed the Province to make a decision. The tough part is that McGuinty has run Ontario's tax policy into the ground and he really has no choice but to do much of what Flaherty wanted them to do in the first place. McGuinty dug his own grave in creating a tax-prohibitive business climate.....the Feds are wise to steer clear of getting involved.

I know full well what Flaherty's position is.

It doesn't mean that Tory MPs are not trying to distance themselves from HST all the while their finance minister pushes it.

[Keepitsimple]

I know full well what Flaherty's position is.

It doesn't mean that Tory MPs are not trying to distance themselves from HST all the while their finance minister pushes it.

You said they were "bashing" their own policy - that's simply not true. Flaherty has been pushing it for the entire country - every province....just like he's been pushing for a single securities commissions and getting rid of inter-provincial trade barriers. Once again, it's not only a Provincial decision to adopt an HST....it's also a Provincial decision on how it's implemented - what's exempt and what's not. You now call it "distancing" - I call it keeping their nose out of the Province's business.

Edited August 23, 2009 by Keepitsimple

[jdobbin]

You said they were "bashing" their own policy - that's simply not true. Flaherty has been pushing it for the entire country - every province....just like he's been pushing for a single securities commissions and getting rid of inter-provincial trade barriers. Once again, it's not only a Provincial decision to adopt an HST....it's also a Provincial decision on how it's implemented - what's exempt and what's not. You now call it "distancing" - I call it keeping their nose out of the Province's business.

My view of bashing is the Ontario Tory MPs saying that HST is the the fault of the Ontario government without taking account of their own government pushing the policy.

It is distancing. They are blaming the provinces in their correspondence and they are lying when they say the provinces approached the federal government rather than the other way around.

Edited August 23, 2009 by jdobbin

[Keepitsimple]

My view of bashing is the Ontario Tory MPs saying that HST is the the fault of the Ontario government without taking account of their own government pushing the policy.

It is distancing. They are blaming the provinces in their correspondence and they are lying when they say the provinces approached the federal government rather than the other way around.

Where in fact did any MP say it was "the fault of the Ontario Government"? and what correspondance "blames" the provinces?.....and the Federal government has approached all the provinces to encourage them to implement an HST and if they decide to do so, they would help with transition funding. It is still the decision of each Provincial government and as such, the provinces must ultimately request it. As opposed to the Conservatives lying, it is you who are misrepresenting the facts.

[jdobbin]

Where in fact did any MP say it was "the fault of the Ontario Government"? and what correspondance "blames" the provinces?.....and the Federal government has approached all the provinces to encourage them to implement an HST and if they decide to do so, they would help with transition funding. It is still the decision of each Provincial government and as such, the provinces must ultimately request it. As opposed to the Conservatives lying, it is you who are misrepresenting the facts.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianp...4BQo9wy6_BbRmsw

Tory MPs say provinces, not Ottawa, to blame for tax harmonization

Conservative MPs are playing down Ottawa's role in convincing Ontario and B.C. to move towards tax harmonization, saying the federal government had nothing to do with the decision even though it's kicking in billions of dollars to ease the transition.

Three Tories have publicly distanced themselves from the contentious policy after constituents complained about the move, which Finance Minister Jim Flaherty has enthusiastically promoted for more than a year.

Responding to an email from a disgruntled Tory supporter, B.C. MP James Lunney laid the blame for the single sales tax at the province's feet.

"As this was a decision of the B.C. provincial government, I encourage you to contact MLA Ron Cantelon to relay any concerns you may have," he wrote in a reply which was published in the Oceanside Star.

This was laying blame at the hands of the B.C. government.

And this was said by Ontario Tories:

His comments echoed those of B.C. MP Dick Harris and Ontario MP Larry Miller, fellow Tories who have shown far less enthusiasm for a single sales tax than the finance minister.

Tax harmonization was initiated by Ontario alone and was not a decision made by the federal government "in any way," Miller wrote in an opinion piece published Aug. 11 in the Owen Sound Sun Times.

That is laying blame, distancing and generally trashing the provinces for the decision.

[Keepitsimple]

http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianp...4BQo9wy6_BbRmsw

That is laying blame, distancing and generally trashing the provinces for the decision.

If you had read the actual quote instead of the headline or the reporter's paraphrasing, you would have seen this - there is no "laying blame" - only in the eyes of what seems like a biased reporter:

"As this was a decision of the B.C. provincial government, I encourage you to contact MLA Ron Cantelon to relay any concerns you may have," he wrote in a reply which was published in the Oceanside Star.

And your second "quote" has to do with the actual BC decision - it was made by the Provincial Government alone - the Feds are not part of the deciosion making - they can only encourage all provinces to adopt the HST. You know that Dobbin - it's Provincial juristiction.

Edited August 23, 2009 by Keepitsimple

[jdobbin]

And your second "quote" has to do with the actual BC decision - it was made by the Provincial Government alone - the Feds are not part of the deciosion making - they can only encourage all provinces to adopt the HST. You know that Dobbin - it's Provincial juristiction.

I also know that Tory MPs are using this to bash provinces for looking at a policy their government wants and pushes.

They are distancing themselves and you know that.

Edited August 23, 2009 by jdobbin