jdobbin Posted August 20, 2009 Report Share Posted August 20, 2009 http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...20?hub=Politics Conservative MPs are playing down Ottawa's role in convincing Ontario and B.C. to move towards tax harmonization, saying the federal government had nothing to do with the decision even though it's kicking in billions of dollars to ease the transition.Three Tories have publicly distanced themselves from the contentious policy after constituents complained about the move, which Finance Minister Jim Flaherty has enthusiastically promoted for more than a year. Yeesh, they are trying to say that their party had nothing to do with it? We're getting pressure in Ottawa for harmonization now in Manitoba. It certainly hasn't been supported by any party here but there is a feeling that it is being pushed on us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riverwind Posted August 20, 2009 Report Share Posted August 20, 2009 (edited) We're getting pressure in Ottawa for harmonization now in Manitoba. It certainly hasn't been supported by any party here but there is a feeling that it is being pushed on us.Harmonization should have been done long ago. I suspect all informed politicians understand this. The only problem is people don't like change even if it is for the better in the long run. Edited August 20, 2009 by Riverwind Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Posted August 21, 2009 Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 Harmonization should have been done long ago. I suspect all informed politicians understand this. The only problem is people don't like change even if it is for the better in the long run. The problem is furthered when it involves consumption taxes. People will instantly take a big hit, which will cause resentment. Explanations of how it will be of benefit to them in the future by making business more profitable and thus better able to provide jobs are more vague to the average citizen. He's heard about 'trickle down' economics before. Somehow he never gets to clearly see himself receiving that future benefit. So he doesn't buy in, even if the positive aspects are true! I still remember John Crosbie telling us, after the Free Trade Bill was enacted, that "henceforth every sparrow that falls will be blamed on this Bill!" He was quite right. People didn't see that we were losing manufacturing jobs anyway. Free Trade may have given us lower paying warehouse and service jobs but we were headed for few jobs at all! Here in Ontario, McGuinty may be doing the right thing but it may turn out to hurt him very badly next election. Most voters have still never accepted the GST! They view the HST as a tax grab and in the initial view, they're right! McGuinty has the further problem of having become well known for making and breaking promises. I'm not entirely certain he won't bail on the idea before the writ is dropped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keepitsimple Posted August 21, 2009 Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...20?hub=PoliticsYeesh, they are trying to say that their party had nothing to do with it? We're getting pressure in Ottawa for harmonization now in Manitoba. It certainly hasn't been supported by any party here but there is a feeling that it is being pushed on us. Flaherty's been pushing for Tax Harmony since the Conservatives got in - for all provinces - and they have/will chip in with funds to help the transition. After Ontario, the only provinces left to do it would be BC, Sask, Man and PEI. It's proven to be a tough sell politically but the Federal funds do help. Where do you stand on it Dobbs - is there something different about Manitoba that would preclude them from gaining the advantages that others have realized? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdobbin Posted August 21, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 Flaherty's been pushing for Tax Harmony since the Conservatives got in - for all provinces - and they have/will chip in with funds to help the transition. After Ontario, the only provinces left to do it would be BC, Sask, Man and PEI. It's proven to be a tough sell politically but the Federal funds do help. Where do you stand on it Dobbs - is there something different about Manitoba that would preclude them from gaining the advantages that others have realized? After what happened in Saskatchewan when they introduced it, Manitoba has been reticent to do it. Filmon rebuffed it. Doer has rejected it but is mulling it now. He is terrified of approving it since the NDP have been against it everywhere. For me, it would add to my billings since I don't have to charge PST. No advantage to me. Might hurt business. I think it makes sense but it could hurt me in the short term. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdobbin Posted August 21, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 Harmonization should have been done long ago. I suspect all informed politicians understand this. The only problem is people don't like change even if it is for the better in the long run. For some people it will mean an increase in price. I think if we ignore that, we don't understand where anger from the public comes from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riverwind Posted August 21, 2009 Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 For some people it will mean an increase in price. I think if we ignore that, we don't understand where anger from the public comes from.Like I said. People don't like change. The government has to get its money from somewhere. If it does not tax restaurant meals then it must tax income and goods more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdobbin Posted August 21, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 Like I said. People don't like change. The government has to get its money from somewhere. If it does not tax restaurant meals then it must tax income and goods more. People don't like paying tax. The NDP used it as an issue in Saskatchewan and reversed it there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riverwind Posted August 21, 2009 Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 People don't like paying tax. The NDP used it as an issue in Saskatchewan and reversed it there.People don't like knowing they are paying tax. They don't care that the PST paid by businesses is included into the prices because they cannot quantify the cost. It is an irrational attitude. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdobbin Posted August 21, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 People don't like knowing they are paying tax. They don't care that the PST paid by businesses is included into the prices because they cannot quantify the cost. It is an irrational attitude. As I said, I know for me it means that I charge my clients more because I only have GST presently. I can't help think that will hurt businesses. You might dismiss people getting angry at the tax as irrational but when everyone believes that all the government does is waste money, then they get angry at increases. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonam Posted August 21, 2009 Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 Like I said. People don't like change. The government has to get its money from somewhere. Would be better if they just spent less of it rather than looking for ways to get their hands on more. Won't happen though, people these days want their government to give them everything on a silver platter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riverwind Posted August 21, 2009 Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 As I said, I know for me it means that I charge my clients more because I only have GST presently. I can't help think that will hurt businesses.It also means you will get refund on all of the PST you pay. If your clients are businesses they will get a refund for the PST they pay you. The BC government is losing $5 billion/year in PST that is paid by businesses. It makes up these losses by adding tax to services but the average price paid by consumers should go down as the businesses adjust their prices to reflect the tax savings.You might dismiss people getting angry at the tax as irrational but when everyone believes that all the government does is waste money, then they get angry at increases.That is why visible, broad taxes are good policy. People should never forget that government services cost money and visible tax is a good way to remind them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riverwind Posted August 21, 2009 Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 Would be better if they just spent less of it rather than looking for ways to get their hands on more. Won't happen though, people these days want their government to give them everything on a silver platter.The HST does not bring in new revenue to the government because it businesses can now get a refund for the PST that they pay. The government also has to offer rebates to low income people which is does not do for the PST. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmax Posted August 21, 2009 Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 Harmonization should have been done long ago. I suspect all informed politicians understand this. The only problem is people don't like change even if it is for the better in the long run. Sure it is Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmax Posted August 21, 2009 Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 Harmonization should have been done long ago. I suspect all informed politicians understand this. The only problem is people don't like change even if it is for the better in the long run. The public uproar over harmonization in Nova Scotia contributed to the Liberal government's defeat in 1999. http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...me=&no_ads= As Canada's rookie premier, Nova Scotia's Darrell Dexter is reluctant to give advice to his counterparts in other provinces. But he has one suggestion for premiers who are contemplating harmonizing their sales taxes with the federal GST, or who have already done so. "I think it's really important that citizens of provinces have a clear indication of just what that tax is going to look like, what goods and services are going to be affected," Dexter said in an interview. "I don't think there's anything that inspires people to go to their local Tim Hortons and talk like a tax increase." Dexter should know. Although he was elected as an opposition legislature member one year after Nova Scotia harmonized its sales tax in 1997, he has seen the HST stir up voter anger in provincial politics for more than a decade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmax Posted August 21, 2009 Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 Yeesh, they are trying to say that their party had nothing to do with it? You mean..... The CPC LIE!!! ... yes the CPC want the HST to go through. It reminds me of the LPC saying they would get rid of the GST and gave us the HST. Bravo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmax Posted August 21, 2009 Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 (edited) People don't like knowing they are paying tax. They don't care that the PST paid by businesses is included into the prices because they cannot quantify the cost. It is an irrational attitude. I'll debate you and take my lumps in the Provincial forums, as I know you are strong on tax policy. However... In your opinion Are the Conservatives LYING? Edited August 21, 2009 by madmax Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Posted August 21, 2009 Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 People don't like knowing they are paying tax. They don't care that the PST paid by businesses is included into the prices because they cannot quantify the cost. It is an irrational attitude. Not entirely. Your statement has the implicit assumption that government services are 100% cost efficient. Few voters believe that anymore, after years of high profile examples of excessive government waste. Governments have a very poor image of having tightened their belts as much as voters have been forced to do. However, whether they are irrational or not is a moot point. They are voters! Politics is perception far more than reality and rarely rational! Even if we accept that you are totally correct in the positive aspects of the HST it doesn't matter. When McGuinty calls the next election he could well go the way of Kim Campbell! We shall see if you or I am right at that time but I think it's not wise to take public acceptance for granted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riverwind Posted August 21, 2009 Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 However, whether they are irrational or not is a moot point. They are voters! Politics is perception far more than reality and rarely rational!I don't dispute that but politicians that will do what is right in the face of such irrational opposition deserve kudos. For all his faults, Mulroney did Canada a big favour by pushing the GST through and our income tax rates are much lower today as a result. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdobbin Posted August 21, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 It reminds me of the LPC saying they would get rid of the GST and gave us the HST.Bravo. Or provincial NDP who oppose then accept the HST? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdobbin Posted August 21, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 It also means you will get refund on all of the PST you pay. If your clients are businesses they will get a refund for the PST they pay you. The BC government is losing $5 billion/year in PST that is paid by businesses. It makes up these losses by adding tax to services but the average price paid by consumers should go down as the businesses adjust their prices to reflect the tax savings. My clients aren't businesses. They will be affected by price points as has been explained in a variety of new columns on the subject. That is why visible, broad taxes are good policy. People should never forget that government services cost money and visible tax is a good way to remind them. I don't deny that tax is important for funding service. I'm just saying that my clients are not businesses. They will end up paying more and not getting a PST refund. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riverwind Posted August 21, 2009 Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 I don't deny that tax is important for funding service. I'm just saying that my clients are not businesses. They will end up paying more and not getting a PST refund.Ok. So in your situation you end up being worse off. But does that mean nothing can never change because every change creates some losers even if society is better off? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Posted August 21, 2009 Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 Ok. So in your situation you end up being worse off. But does that mean nothing can never change because every change creates some losers even if society is better off? Nope! It means that those that consider themselves losers on a new deal will hold it against those who imposed it. I still don't believe that McGuinty is going to take the fall for the federal CPC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdobbin Posted August 21, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 Ok. So in your situation you end up being worse off. But does that mean nothing can never change because every change creates some losers even if society is better off? In this case, it looks like it could me. For some people who lose, they will choose to vote elsewhere in the next election. It is why the Tories are running from the idea that they had anything to do with harmonization. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riverwind Posted August 21, 2009 Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 (edited) For some people who lose, they will choose to vote elsewhere in the next election.The majority of people will not be your situation and their objections are not justified because on average they will not being paying more tax.Do you have more sympathy for people who opposed the carbon tax for the same reasons now? Edited August 21, 2009 by Riverwind Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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