Muslim Honor Killing in Kingston

[guyser]

No, lynching was illegal and certainly not "acceptable" to the general public.

Quite true . I certainly did not intend to make it seem it was legal, however to many in the south it was a way of life and did occur , knowingly and without decent people stopping it.

Honour killings are illegal and not "acceptable" to the general public in either of our countries.

[

[cybercoma]

It wasn't "legal" but that didn't stop courts from turning a blind eye to it.

[Guest American Woman]

bush_cheney2004, on 02 February 2012 - 08:03 PM, said: No, lynching was illegal and certainly not "acceptable" to the general public.

Quite true . I certainly did not intend to make it seem it was legal, however to many in the south it was a way of life and did occur , knowingly and without decent people stopping it.

Honour killings are illegal and not "acceptable" to the general public in either of our countries.

But they are in some other countries, and I think that's the point being made. Also, some are comparing 'honor killings" to any other murder - saying there is no difference, people do commit murder, simple as that.

But there is a difference - just as there was a difference in the lynchings we are now speaking of. If the response back then had been 'lots of people commit murder - someone in my city killed his wife for cheating on him' - we would all be able to see that there was a difference; and if it had not been recognized, the problem may not have been addressed and dealt with as it was. The fact that society did not "accept" people lynching Blacks/getting off for such lynchings helped lead to the civil rights movement.

So we need to recognize that this is a problem within some 'religions/cultures,' and that it's a problem within our countries because the mindset does exist in some who are immigrating here - that's the first step in helping to prevent such killings from occurring in our nations.

[bud]

But they are in some other countries,

i did a quick search and couldn't find countries where honour killing is legal. could you point to which countries honour killing is legal?

[bud]

honour killing is murder and the penalty should reflect that. at the same time, the acceptance and practice by some cultures and sub-cultures should be discussed and dissected. however, to make this another 'muslim' issue is nothing more than becoming a mouthpiece for the anti-muslim agenda.

trying to paint a whole group of people (muslims) is as ridiculous as saying catholics are pedophiles and child rapists because some priests engage in raping children.

Edited February 3, 2012 by bud

[Guest Peeves]

honour killing is murder and the penalty should reflect that. at the same time, the acceptance and practice by some cultures and sub-cultures should be discussed and dissected. however, to make this another 'muslim' issue is nothing more than becoming a mouthpiece for the anti-muslim agenda.

trying to paint a whole group of people (muslims) is as ridiculous as saying christians are pedophiles and child rapists because some priests engage in raping children.

Honor killings also take place in other religious orders, other non Muslim countries, though not as a religious act anymore than it's a Muslim religious act

It's a cultural, usually misogynistic act committed by fathers, sons, and sometimes as in the Shafia case, mothers.

"Many in the West associate ‘honour killings’ with Muslim societies. However, the deplorable practice can be found in several non-Muslim majority societies. In India, for instance, the practice is more frequent in rural settings where village councils at times have sanctioned murdering the couple who had eloped or married without the family’s consent. Earlier this week a judge in Uttar Pradesh sentenced eight men to death and 20 others for life imprisonment for honour killings committed in 1991. In May 2011, the Indian Supreme Court had already recommended capital punishment for those convicted of honour killings, thus enabling the lower courts to award stricter punishments.

In Pakistan and several other Muslim countries, female victims of honour killings seldom get justice. While laws against honour killing have been on the books in Pakistan since 2005, however the conviction rate has been despicably low. In Khyber Pukhtunkhwa (KP), a mere 8 per cent of those accused of honour killings were convicted in 2009. *Of the 33 women and 18 men murdered in honour killings in 2009 in KP, 83 per cent of the accused were husbands, fathers, brothers and other male relatives of the deceased.

Research from Pakistan, Jordon, and other countries revealed that often mothers of murdered women approach the sharia courts as their legal heirs and sought and received pardon for the accused father, brother or other male relative of the murdered girl in a Diyat (blood money) arrangement.

http://www.dawn.com/2011/11/18/what-makes-parents-murder-their-daughters.html

[Scotty]

Are you telling me how to think?

No, I'm telling you TO think.

[Scotty]

Now they don't.

There was a time when honor killing was practiced and accepted in the US? Do please give us some cites.

[Scotty]

Honor killings also take place in other religious orders, other non Muslim countries,

True. But 91% are Muslims.

I think, therefore, it is fair to describe it as largely a Muslim issue.

Edited February 4, 2012 by Scotty

[AusKanada]

It's a sensitive topic surely. All part of having immigration from rural backwaters in the Middle East, where women are not emancipated, given contraceptives, equal rights or dignity as persons.

Also to the poster who claims that is not legal anywhere, this is true, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I think perhaps four countries on Earth legally allow filesharing, does this mean that filesharing does not occur in the vast majority of the world??

Edited February 4, 2012 by AusKanada

[Guest American Woman]

The "legality" of it is also not cut and dry. In Pakistan, for example, honor killings are illegal, but the accused can be pardoned/make a deal with the victim's family and the charges will be dropped - and of course the "accused" and the "victim" are from the same family. Also, in some, the sentence is much less severe than the sentences for other murders.

I just find it odd how those who recognize lynchings in the U.S. as a problem in the South at the time - as a separate issue from other murders that were occurring - refuse to see honor killings as a cultural problem and will in effect defend the mindset by saying "other people murder too."

Edited February 4, 2012 by American Woman

[greyman]

Too much politicizing of this issue. Murder was committed, punish accordingly.

The rest is all just noise.

[Guest American Woman]

Too much politicizing of this issue. Murder was committed, punish accordingly.

The rest is all just noise.

No, it isn't. It's part of addressing the problem to prevent it from happening again. And again.

[greyman]

No, it isn't. It's part of addressing the problem to prevent it from happening again. And again.

Prevent what? Murder? I've got news for you, unless you make being human illegal - murder ain't going anywhere.

[Guest American Woman]

Prevent what? Murder? I've got news for you, unless you make being human illegal - murder ain't going anywhere.

Prevent "honor killings." That wasn't clear to you?

[greyman]

Prevent "honor killings." That wasn't clear to you?

Again, to place that label only plays into the hands of the perpetrators.

De-politicize it, call it what it is...murder.

Punish accordingly.

It doesn't get any more clear than that.

[Guest American Woman]

Again, to place that label only plays into the hands of the perpetrators.

De-politicize it, call it what it is...murder.

Punish accordingly.

It doesn't get any more clear than that.

No, it doesn't "only" do that. It helps people recognize the problem, those who are threatened - and hopefully provide help to those who need it. It also clearly shows that our nations will not tolerate the mindset. It doesn't get any more clear than that.

But I do thank you for so clearly illustrating the point I was making earlier.

Edited February 4, 2012 by American Woman

[Michael Hardner]

No, I'm telling you TO think.

I do think. If you're interested in my explanations and willing to listen, I'll elaborate.

But I'll no more listen to your orders than you would to mine.

[greyman]

No, it doesn't "only" do that. It helps people recognize the problem, those who are threatened - and hopefully provide help to those who need it. It also clearly shows that our nations will not tolerate the mindset. It doesn't get any more clear than that.

But I do thank you for so clearly illustrating the point I was making earlier.

Such a need to over-complicate.

Your sentiments are where needless bureaucracies are born.

This isn't complex.

"recognize the problem": murder(ers)

"those who are threatened": victim(s)

"provide help to those who need it": law enforcement, courts, therapists

"will not tolerate the mindset": nearly everyone condemns murder, full stop

Again, we already have the apparatus in place to deal with murder, and those who commit it, likewise the means for victims' families to get help. Forcing it into being a political issue plays into the hands of those who do it.

[Guest Peeves]

Again, to place that label only plays into the hands of the perpetrators.

De-politicize it, call it what it is...murder.

Punish accordingly.

It doesn't get any more clear than that.

It's different. It's not simply abuse or murder, it's different and needs to be seen as different.

"In referring to those who hesitantly pretend that honor killings are not a global phenomenon, peculiar to certain regressive patriarchal cultures,

"WE" are too often afraid of appearing racist-bigots if we timorously point out the truth - that people from other cultures are capable of doing evil - if we prefer to label these types of killings "domestic violence" we are accommodating PC and diminishing the fact that the honor killing is acceptable by some, not just those committing the femicides, but also their families (males mostly), culture clan or tribe.

, AND THEY DO NOT CONSIDER IT AS SIMPLY ANOTHER MURDER, to them it is justifiable and if tried in their own culture they might get a a lighter sentence than for just another murder.

I took some quotes out of context and expanded on them.

Read more: http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/Lakritz+Shafia+murders+were+honour+killings/6076282/story.html#ixzz1lQabRxUu

[CANADIEN]

It's different. It's not simply abuse or murder, it's different and needs to be seen as different.

"In referring to those who hesitantly pretend that honor killings are not a global phenomenon, peculiar to certain regressive patriarchal cultures,

"WE" are too often afraid of appearing racist-bigots if we timorously point out the truth - that people from other cultures are capable of doing evil - if we prefer to label these types of killings "domestic violence" we are accommodating PC and diminishing the fact that the honor killing is acceptable by some, not just those committing the femicides, but also their families (males mostly), culture clan or tribe.

, AND THEY DO NOT CONSIDER IT AS SIMPLY ANOTHER MURDER, to them it is justifiable and if tried in their own culture they might get a a lighter sentence than for just another murder.

I took some quotes out of context and expanded on them.

Read more: http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/Lakritz+Shafia+murders+were+honour+killings/6076282/story.html#ixzz1lQabRxUu

There is nothing timourous or politically correct in calling "honour" killings what they are: murders. There is nothing honourable, there is nothing acceptable in those crimes. Period, end of story. The whole "should it be considered domestic abuse" debate is completely ridiculous.

[Michael Hardner]

Read more: http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/Lakritz+Shafia+murders+were+honour+killings/6076282/story.html#ixzz1lQabRxUu

Weirdly, the columnist enrolls God into her condemnation of barbaric people.

And, thank God, Ontario Superior Court Judge Robert Maranger did not fall back on a position of "responsible neutrality" in dealing with people so backwards and so base as to be capable of the premeditated murder of three of their own children.

This is the same God that the Koran, and Bible told to sacrifice his son ? What ?

If somebody wants to engage in talk about their cultural superiority, you'd think they'd have a better go at it than to simply compare their ridiculous holy book to someone else's ? At least a humanistic Athiest has a solid philosophical ground to condemn others' lack of humanity.

This argument is, to me, about people pointing fingers at other cultures and feeling better about their own culture.

Otherwise, what is it ? Does anybody have some kind of formula to determine the worth of a culture, and individual, that we can convey to our customs agents to test immigrants with ? Or what are you proposing ? It seems to me we're proposing feeling good about our culture by pointing at backwards cultures and scowling... nothing more.

[Guest Manny]

But we still have a responsibility to help people who come here from other cultures, and are unable to escape the prejudice and intolerance that their families bring with them from the "old country".

I think the larger problem is the erosion of a clear Canadian culture. When people come to Canada under the auspice of a multicultural society, there's the impression that here they can do anything they want, live exactly like they did in their own native land and not have any need to conform to certain basic principles. And this is totally incorrect, because despite the noble idea that multiple cultures can live together in peace, there still needs to be a certain amount of conformity to an underlying, common culture that sets the baseline for justice and tolerance. It is this baseline culture that we have allowed to erode which leads to the failure of multiculturalism, creating splintered groups that cannot abide each other.

[Michael Hardner]

When people come to Canada under the auspice of a multicultural society, there's the impression that here they can do anything they want, live exactly like they did in their own native land and not have any need to conform to certain basic principles.

There's an impression ? Who has this impression - Canadians or immigrants ? How prevalent is it ? What part of doing anything includes breaking laws, and behaving counter to our constitutional principles ?

[cybercoma]

Prevent "honor killings." That wasn't clear to you?

Stop calling them honour killings. That's a pretty quick way to prevent them. After that they'll just be what we call every other instance like this: domestic homicide.

Edited February 4, 2012 by cybercoma