Muslim Honor Killing in Kingston

[benny]

To some a benny is a poached egg on a muffin served with hollandaise sauce.

-k

{ham is optional.}

Obsessed too!?

[M.Dancer]

To some a benny is a poached egg on a muffin served with hollandaise sauce.

-k

{ham is optional.}

To others it a drug to addle your brains...best avoided.

[benny]

To others it a drug to addle your brains...best avoided.

Is this avoidance!?

[kimmy]

Obsessed too!?

hungry.

-k

[benny]

hungry.

-k

No honor!?

[kimmy]

No honor!?

Don't need pride with an empty belly.

I am picturing your head on an english muffin, gently poached, covered with hollandaise sauce.

-k

[benny]

Don't need pride with an empty belly.

I am picturing your head on an english muffin, gently poached, covered with hollandaise sauce.

-k

troll

[kimmy]

troll

In myth, trolls eat children.

-k

{served with hollandaise sauce, most likely.}

[benny]

In myth, trolls eat children.

-k

{served with hollandaise sauce, most likely.}

troll

[capricorn]

A Montreal man accused of murdering four family members was attacked, and his parents subjected to death threats, within hours of their arrival at a detention centre in Napanee, Sun Media has learned.

Hamed Shafia, 18, was assaulted by other inmates at the Quinte Detention Centre when he was allowed out of his cell for yard time.

---

The assault raises questions about whether three high-profile accused mass killers can be kept safe if they're not granted bail while their complex case winds it way through the courts.

http://www.ottawasun.com/news/ottawa/2009/...296031-sun.html

Bail for mass murderers to keep them safe? I can't see this happening but just the fact it is raised in this case is disgusting and worrisome.

Understanding Bail Law in Canada http://www.getbailnow.ca/understandbaillaw.php

[M.Dancer]

http://www.ottawasun.com/news/ottawa/2009/...296031-sun.html

Bail for mass murderers to keep them safe? I can't see this happening but just the fact it is raised in this case is disgusting and worrisome.

Understanding Bail Law in Canada http://www.getbailnow.ca/understandbaillaw.php

Have we no solitary?

[capricorn]

You mean 'the hole'? From my link:

The two Shafia men were being held in an eight-cell wing of the maximum-security section known as unit 1B. They have now been moved to the jail's segregation unit, or hole, where they are isolated from other inmates in single occupancy cells.

The mother is in a women's facility, probably an efficiency unit where she can cook her own halal meals.

Edited July 29, 2009 by capricorn

[Hydraboss]

troll

This, from someone who posts like a discount fortune cookie. Your statements regularly remind me of the character "The Sphinx" from Mystery Men. Mystery Men

"You must lash out with every limb, like the octopus who plays the drums."

"We are number one. All others are number two, or lower."

"To learn my teachings, I must first teach you how to learn."

"He who questions training only trains himself at asking questions."

[benny]

This, from someone who posts like a discount fortune cookie. Your statements regularly remind me of the character "The Sphinx" from Mystery Men.

The Sphinx ate the dishonorable old.

[JB Globe]

In NIgera several women were recently butchered by the Islamist for allegedly being witches.

You seem to be implying that this can be used as evidence to back up your belief that Islam is an evil religion.

Are you aware that Christians in West Africa do this as well? Therefor, according to your own logic (to which I do not subscribe) Christianity is an evil religion. How is it that you are not aware that Christians do this as well? Perhaps you shouldn't make such grandiose statements about regions and/or religions of the world you don't know too well.

Quote: Their xenophobia is still trying to hold back this nation because they're incapable of living in an integrated society.

Whom are you calling xenophobic?

I believe he was calling xenophobes xenophobes, he didn't mention anyone by name or by implication. The question is, why did you think he was talking about you? Perhaps because you constantly are labeled xenophobic? Why do you think this is? Could it be that there is some orchestrated campaign against you personally? Could it be that there is a campaign against your freedom of speech? Or could it be that, yes, in fact, you make statements and have attitudes which are xenophobic?

Is it acceptable for the Islamist to espouse our culture is filthy and vile? Is acceptable for them to refuse to allow their children to integrate and become members of Canadian Culture and if they do they could face death?

Are you really asking if we think murder is acceptable? Really? Don't waste our time with foolish questions, please . . .

Is it xenophobic to resist Sharia Law

Not inherently, no. It depends on the grounds by which you oppose it. If you oppose it because it's Muslim and you believe Islam is evil, than you're xenophobic. But, if you oppose it because you don't want multiple courts, and think one court for all is fine, than that's not a xenophobic reason.

As per the norm the majority are called names but those that espouse outright hatred of the West's Culture via the Islamist are patted on the head with the usual sniveling appeasement.

1 - You are not the majority, people who share your views (White Nationalism) are such a small minority in Canada that not even the old Reform-Conservative party members will go anywhere near you with a 10 foot pole.

2 - You're twisting the definition of "Islamist" to include anyone who doesn't share your view that Islam is in itself evil. Thus, that's how you've come to think that people "head-pat" Islamists, when in those "Islamists" are just ordinary Muslims.

I'd rather be labeled a zenophobe by the perpetually offended than watch gender equality be eroded by the perpetually sniveling easy to offend group. I suggest you read Fatah Tareks "Chasing a Mirage" in one chapter he describes a conference that he went to where the guest speaker chanted "Death to the West" and the audience joined in.

Listen, you can't cherry-pick articles from authors (Tarek Fatah, not the other way around, btw) that support your views, then ignore ones from the same author that don't support your views.

I'm going to keep saying the following: When Mosque stop selling books on "How to beat your wife" I'll consider Honour Killings non-Islamic.

Well, since Mosques in Canada don't sell that book, and because that book doesn't exist, I guess your campaign is done, right?

Didn't you just quote a Tarek Fatah? Are you not aware that he wrote the following in an article the National Post the week:

"It is true that Islam's holy book, the Koran, does not sanction honour killings. But to deny the fact that many incidents of honour killings are conducted by Muslim fathers, sons and brothers, and that many victims are Muslim women, is to exercise intellectual dishonesty."

Meaning - that there is a problem within the Canadian-Muslim community of discrimination and violence against women, but it is not a problem with the practice Islam in general. That means it can be dealt with accordingly, like it was in the Italian community 40-50 years ago (funny how we forget this fact) we can improve the situation. We don't have to throw the baby out with the bathwater. But of course, improving the situation would require working with the Muslim community, and you don't seem to want to do that, because to you, every Muslim is a Islamist. There would also be one less reason for you to justify your hatred of Islam if there was no more domestic violence issues.

You talk a lot about how much you dislike Islam in general, but you're short on solutions. If you honestly believe Islam is an evil religion, than there's only really one kind of strategy you an advocate - varying degrees of state discrimination against Muslims. Maybe the reason you don't talk about solutions is because it would make you appear blatantly racist. ie - banning only Muslim immigration, discriminatory laws against Muslims, mandatory testing of Muslims for "extremism" etc.

But please, share with us your ideas.

When Mosque stop segregating women I'll consider Islam to be worthy of being labeled a female gender friendly religion.

Then by your logic again, Judaism, Hinduism, Sikhism are all misogynistic religions. You could put most Christian denominations in there as well, as only men can be pastors/priests. Can you at least be consistent? Is that too much to ask?

[benny]

You talk a lot about how much you dislike Islam in general, but you're short on solutions.

His solution would perhaps get out like this: to save our honor as Westerners, we have to kill these killers.

[Argus]

Argus,

Do you see what you're doing here ?

You limit the definition of the problem, the crime, to something that's specific to the these people. Yes, this is a crime that's more specific to that group, but is it a reason to condemn the entire group ?

I don't see that group condemning the crime. In fact, in many of the nations populated by that group it isn't even a crime, really. That would tend to suggest they are fairly indifferent, at best, to this, and at worst, support it.

[Argus]

I did misquote you, and I missed the difference between 'facts' and 'logic'. However, to follow you in your thinking: logic needs to be based on facts, or at least reasonable assumptions. As I have pointed out, it's difficult to build a logical case on facts such as these without falling into the trap of cultural bias. This doesn't mean that we discount violence against women, but it also means that we don't focus on one attribute of a culture - whatever it is - and determine that the group is inhuman because of it.

As to cultural bias. I don't particularly care if my attitudes towards their cultures is based on my cultural bias. As far as I'm concerned this is a case of the existing social order, and the undesirability of bringing into the country tens of thousands - hundreds of thousands of socially backward people who do not appear to have the necessary intellectual flexibility to ever change their barbarous beliefs.

We don't have an absence of facts here, but instead have some reports of incidents, and some statistics.

True enough, but we do have a lifetime worth of social interaction within the society in question, and of speaking to members of this group, and to others of their experiences, and of course, reading reports of their actions and beliefs.

You're talking about some Muslim peoples in some jurisdictions.

Well then, perhaps it would sway me if you could show me the many Muslim jurisdictions in which women are treated respectfully and equally in an environment which bans any violence towards them.

It remains to be seen that the environment you described will be prohibitive in terms of allow these people to integrate their culture into the Canadian mix.

Perhaps, but when I encounter teenage girls wearing chadors, yet speaking English with no accent, that tells me that their parents ridiculous social beliefs are continuing into the next generation.

But, at the core, you're assuming more than what is stated here, I think. It seems to me that you're assuming that they will cling to their religious texts more than other groups would and that assertion is in my opinion unprovable and unknowable.

There's no real way to prove the future. But call me a cynic, but I've never met a secular Muslim, nor ever heard of a Muslim nation which tried in the least way to be secular - other than Turkey - which is seriously backsliding. That would tend to speak of the lack of any particular movement towards this end on the part of world Muslims.

I ask in good faith whether you know Muslims, and what you experiences were with them.

I have no Muslim friends, if that's what you mean. Then again, no one I know has any Muslim friends either. They all have black, brown and Asian friends, friends from all manner of countries and ethnic groups. But no Muslims.

You can't have it both ways. If you say "I have the right to judge foreigners based on my cultural standards." then you can't expect your arguments to carry any universal weight, that is - you can't expect your arguments to convince anyone but those you carry all of the exact same cultural standards.

I don't have a problem with that. I'm only speaking to people who have the same cultural standards. Ie, Canadians.

In effect, you're admitting to arguing a personal opinion rather than something that others can be convinced of.

I don't think I'm really arguing that Muslim attitudes towards women are backwards. I think most people tend to acknowledge as much. What I'm arguing is that this mentality is not one we should be importing into Canada in large numbers.

Canada is in "high demand", it's true - but by people that you don't seem to want to come here.

Well why don't we just check that out? Ban immigrants from Muslim nations, target nations which, from recent history tend to produce the more successful immigrants - ie immigrants who are the best social and economic fits with Canada, and see if we get enough.

There is little doubt, according to statistical, economic and population data, that we are taking in far more immigrants than we actually have an economic or social need for. So we can afford to cut back, and that means cutting out those who make poorer recruits, as it were.

[Argus]

So sorry... The cross-burning and lynching and bombings and murders must have been a product of North America's collective imagination.

Uh, don't Muslims do all that too?

[Argus]

The issue is not what you have heard or not heard. It is not the reaction that most people would have if someone said it to their face. It is not even your idiotic assumption that I claim to read mind. It is about the fact that there are people in Western societies who holds such opinion. 26% of Britons think that's a woman is at least partly responsible if she wears certain clothings, 20% if she has multiple sexual partners, according to poll conducted in 2005.

There are a huge number of 3rd world immigrants in the UK, many of them Muslims.

I'm betting that the 98% agreement rate among some of those groups, including Muslims, would have thrown off the curve somewhat.

[Guest TrueMetis]

I don't have a problem with that. I'm only speaking to people who have the same cultural standards. Ie, Canadians.

Which Canadians are these? I don't know anyone who would agree with what you saying.

[Argus]

I'll cosign this. Two years ago I was producing and researching a documentary that is part of an educational unit for Ontario high schools on immigration. The research I did pretty much spelled out your points here. You wouldn't believe the kind of crap that was written about Jews, Poles and Italians back in the 1940's in newspapers. It reads like some of these diatribes against Muslims today. There were all kinds of unsubstantiated chicken-little predictions about the fall of Canadian society.

So because those who predicted this were wrong then.... this means that any such predictions about any groups, however different, however numerous, are also wrong?

Not quite sure that is logically sound.

All this talk about the inferiority and unadaptability of "those people" - they even cited the existence of Jewish neighourhoods (Kensington Market) and Jewish schools as evidence that Jews would never integrate, and thus we should shut off immigration.

I think I have already posted the huge differences between the adaptation of small groups (percentage wise) of the population back a half century or more ago, and the much larger communities today who watch satellite tv from "home", and travel back "home" every couple of years, as well as often sending their kids home to get married. That's not to mention the fact that Jews and Poles never had any sizable groups which made efforts to act violently against the majority group here in favour of some sort of world-wide Jewish or Polish or Italian "nation" They weren't listening to preachers or rabbis denouncing all western culture as ungodly, and calling on them to violently resist, or telling them God would approve murder.

I think the real difference is that the world was so much larger back then that when you moved to Canada you MOVED to Canada. There was no going back. Your life would be here, henceforth and you had best learn to adapt. That sentiment seems to be lacking among many today. They're here because of a better lifestyle here, but their hearts remain in their homelands. And they remain members of that nationalist group - foreigners living among us.

[Argus]

When the Catholic Church stops segregating women, I'll consider them worthy of being labeled a female gender friendly religion. The reality is, there are inequalities in every religion.

There is a difference between the inequality of not allowing women to be priests and the inequality of not allowing women to be human beings.

As someone pointed out earlier in the thread, the Americans call the women they see in Iraq and Afghanistan UBOs. Unidentified Black Objects.

They're just things, without faces or rights or voices.

[Argus]

I still shudder at the thought of all those billions of dollars their rioting caused the City of Toronto when the Ontario Government wisely decided against religious bodies, Muslim or otherwise, getting involved in arbitration on civil law matters.

Although the majority of Muslims wanted Sharia law (which should show you something about the mentality involved) their numbers are simply not there yet to start acting up in a serious fashion. However, if we look to Europe, to places like the UK and France, as well as some of the Nordic countries, we see a minority which has many, many members who are extraordinarily hostile towards those surrounding them, violently inclined, responsible for much crime, and making demands (ie, demands for Muslim only law, and no "outsiders" including police, into their areas (France, the UK, Netherlands). In every country where Muslims have any kind of numbers, we see violence, invariably originating in the demand from Muslims to be treated separately, to have separate law, and to be permitted to continue their barbaric cultural practices.

Muslims don't have those numbers in Canada, but on the other hand, their numbers are doubling every ten years.

[Argus]

We've always had a large influx of immigrants though. I don't think that we're going to lose who we are. There will be those who will never forget.

We have never had this large an influx of immigrants sustained for so many years. And huge numbers of those previous groups were basically British isles people whose cultural values were fairly close to the ones in place here at the time.