Bill C-250 passes Senate

[August1991]

There you go.

There isn't a valid arguement for being anti-250.

TakeNum, read through this thread. You will find my arguments (and of other posters) that are valid arguments against C-250.

Everyone can also judge whether the level of debate is better or worse now.

[takeanumber]

Right Here is the Bill

I'm Sorry August.

I don't think most people even read the legislation, and you can tell by the replies in this thread that so many didn't.

They just bought the Alliance line, and that was that.

And worse, some know full well that the Alliance line was BS, and they continue to bash C-250 as a method for bashing homosexuals.

I live in Alberta. I know the tactics.

[takeanumber]

Alliance Fanatic Wrote:

Its good news for those who wish to abuse the law. The problem is that the law will be abused by those certain left leaning hypocrites that will try to force people to believe homosexaulity is a healthy lifestyle. It will also be used by certain dimwits to destroy debate

[takeanumber]

August replied:

I'm afraid that Canada is falling victim to political correctness. If people can't say what they think, they will go underground to say it. The "truth" cannot be ordained, and we are foolish to believe that we can make it so.

"Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me."

When does an opinion become a crime or a conspiracy to commit a crime? Am I guilty if I say I intend to park my car illegally? A simple parking ticket requires a date, time, place and description of the physical infraction.

[takeanumber]

Playful Pillow wrote:

The sad thing about this law is that technically, most religious books such as the bible or koran could be construed as hate literature. The laws are in place that forbid people from beating or killing people because of their race, religion or sexual preferences. Peoples sexual preferences should be left at home in the bedroom and not become part of our charter system.

[takeanumber]

Sorry, I was going to go through the rest, but I'm literally sick to my stomach.

(I didn't know that many of the same people calling me the Nazi were the ones saying this kind of stuff about homosexuals.)

OMFG

I personally don't care what gay's do in the privacy of their own home, but right now it seems that everybody is forced to believe that homosexuality is an acceptable behavior, and gay pride parades, and gay positive programs in school must be in place everywhere. I also have a huge concern over human rights boards. In Edmonton the elected mayor refused to have a gay pride parade, yet was forced to because he was sued. That is what scares people about the gay rights agenda. That we are all losing alot of our freedoms due to political correctness

Wow. Wow.

"We're losing alot of our freedoms due to political correctness"

It's just amazing.

And to think I was making an effort to think the best of some people...give them the benefit of the doubt.

Nope.

I won't be doing that anymore.

[August1991]

I don't think most people even read the legislation, and you can tell by the replies in this thread that so many didn't.

The effect of C-250 is to alter the Criminal Code. Specifically, it will include "gays and lesbians" as an "identifiable" group.

This thread raises two perfectly valid points:

First, are gays and lesbians "identifiable" in the same way, for example, blacks are identifiable?

Second, what is "hate speech"? Is this what we really want to forbid? A "hate crime" is not the same as "hate speech". The distinction is critical.

[August1991]

Sorry, I was going to go through the rest, but I'm literally sick to my stomach.

Nope.

I won't be doing that anymore.

If you don't like the heat, get out of the kitchen.

[takeanumber]

You're right.

Wow.

First, are gays and lesbians "identifiable" in the same way, for example, blacks are identifiable?

Second, what is "hate speech"? Is this what we really want to forbid? A "hate crime" is not the same as "hate speech". The distinction is critical

Ah, yes, homosexuals are identifiable.

I don't know why you're questioning that.

I mean...if they wern't identifiable, there'd be no way to beat them to death in alleys.

What is hate speech?

Hate speech is a subset of hate crime.

In simpler terms, hate speech is a hate crime.

Say, if somebody inserted a pamplet into my newspaper that said homosexuals are pedos and that they should be loaded up and sent off to somewhere and have experiements done and tortured...etc..., or say, it called for the firebombing of gay resource centres, or the deliberate beating of homosexuals outside gay bars, complete with a number to call for details...

That's a crime, for the same reason targetting any other identifiable group is.

It's a subset relationship.

[August1991]

Ah, yes, homosexuals are identifiable.

I just had a nice walk on the Montreal mountain. I noticed quite a few whites, blacks and many skin variations in between.

I have no doubt that I walked by many gays and lesbians. I was unable to identify any one of them.

Hate speech is a subset of hate crime.

In simpler terms, hate speech is a hate crime.

What logic is that?

There is a big difference between parking my car illegally and saying that I'm going to park my car illegally.

[takeanumber]

I have no doubt that I walked by many gays and lesbians. I was unable to identify any one of them.

I can't tell the difference between a Jewish person and a Christian.

Does that mean Jewish people arn't identifiable?

(I don't think most people can tell who's Jewish and who isn't.)

Same thing applies to homosexuals.

There are ways of finding out.

(Some homosexuals wear rainbow colours, much the same way that some sects of Judaism demands the wearing of black and those hats.)

So...I'd say they're identifiable.

[Alliance Fanatic]

But the problem with a hate law is, what if the courts abuse it. For example if a christian university or charity does not feel that a homosexual can continue to work at that organization due to the fact that he is gay, could the charity, or organization be charged with a hate crime. Many towns, and cities, have also been forced to have gay pride parades due to decisions by human rights tribunals forced them too. How does that make sense.

The fact is that if a white, christian, were to be killed by homosexuals simply because he was a christian than that would not be considered a hate crime, and the media would ignore it.

for example in Edmonton a group of natives beat up on some white kids just because they were white. However the youths got sympathy from the media, and the police did'nt charge them with a hate crime. Was'nt this crime motivated by hate. Answer that question takeanumber and black dog.

[takeanumber]

But the problem with a hate law is, what if the courts abuse it.

Courts? Try law enforcement too!

I full agree. Often hate legislation is turned against the people it's trying to protect. (Borovoy, The New Anti-Liberals), however, inspite of this fact, I still support them, because I can't stomach the alternative.

But superior point. I always hope that hate laws will be checked by reason. Sometimes they're not. I guess they're just like any other law.

Many towns, and cities, have also been forced to have gay pride parades due to decisions by human rights tribunals forced them too.

Are towns hurt by pride parades?

The fact is that if a white, christian, were to be killed by homosexuals simply because he was a christian than that would not be considered a hate crime, and the media would ignore it.

That would be first degree murder, and the homosexual would probably get 25 to life for that crime.

Deplorable. But I think given the Homosexuals status in society, vis-a-vis Christians, implies that the opposite crime, of a homosexual waiting in the dark for a homosexual to get out of the bar, is far worse.

I think the general arrow of hatred, from SOME Christians in general towards homosexuals in general, is what should find abhorrant.

(Not all Christians are total intolerant bigots. The United Church is wonderful!)

for example in Edmonton a group of natives beat up on some white kids just because they were white. However the youths got sympathy from the media, and the police did'nt charge them with a hate crime. Was'nt this crime motivated by hate. Answer that question takeanumber and black dog.

I did have a long thing about the historical arrow of discrimination, but I deleted it.

I'll just say, any hate based offense is wrong, and abhorrant, and it should be treated as an extra degree.

It should be a degree on top of first degree.

[Alliance Fanatic]

(Not all Christians are total intolerant bigots. The United Church is wonderful!)

Just because you don't agree with the lifestyle does not make you a bigot. I disagree with people that smoke alot, but I would'nt be considered a bigot. So under your logic since I disagree with smoking I am a bigot.

Why should towns be forced to have gay pride parades, thats the question, not everybody wants naked men and women to be going down mainstreet on a sunny day. I've seen some of the events at Toronto's gay pride parade which was leatherclad men, fat naked lesbians, and people who enjoy sado-masichism. Why should we force communities to have those types of parades. It does not make any sense.

Would you like me to go into detail why I believe that homosexuality is wrong, and tell you of all of the different sex acts homosexuals have engaged in statistically.

If you are a libertarian, why are you so adamant that everybody be forced to think a certain way. Is'nt libertarianism about live and let live.

[idealisttotheend]

AF you are really peed off about towns having to have parades aren't you? Are you on a city/town council or something that has been forced to have a parade?

You don't have to watch the parade, in fact you can pay attention to when and where it is occuring, and stay away from it all together. That is why municipalities can be forced to have them. That way gays are not automatically excluded from having parades but the rest of the society is not necessarily included because they can just ignore the parade.

The thinking is that gay people have as much right to a parade as do shriners or Christians or tall men who like ballet. There is no valid reason to exclude them because again, the rest of the community can simply ignore the said parade at no cost to them.