Ontario Pushes Electric Cars as Auto Sector Boost

Dave_ON · July 15, 2009

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2009/07/15/...ic-cars511.html

So Ontario is jumping on the electric car band wagon. This is all well and good but I'm not convinced we have sufficient power infrastructure in place to handle the increased power demands. As it stands Ontario is already a power hog, this would only exacerbate that issue. Not to mention, especially in urban sections of Ontario, where the electric car is likely to gain the most traction, most apartment buildings, condos etc. do not have facilities that would support these and the government of Ontario hasn’t made any plans to invest in developing these facilities. Don’t get me wrong I think it’s a great idea and the electric car is long overdue, but given our current state of affairs, bringing on the electric car will mean a significant investment on the part of the province. OTOH this could definitely revitalize the auto manufacturing industry in Ontario, and if we can get sufficient government support could make Canada a leading manufacturer of electric cars.

M.Dancer · July 15, 2009

With a $10,000 grant I would buy one and mothball it till I find an eager sucker.

Electric cars may be fine for florida, but in -20 degree winter nights I wouldn';'t want to trust my life on one whose battery must not only power the car, but power the heater...

Dave_ON · July 15, 2009

With a $10,000 grant I would buy one and mothball it till I find an eager sucker.
Electric cars may be fine for florida, but in -20 degree winter nights I wouldn';'t want to trust my life on one whose battery must not only power the car, but power the heater...

Agreed on that, though they have come a long way with battery life, they've still got a long way to go in terms of cold weather. I suppose the same issue would be true in Florida in the summer though to run the AC in the 30+ humidity.

M.Dancer · July 15, 2009

Agreed on that, though they have come a long way with battery life, they've still got a long way to go in terms of cold weather. I suppose the same issue would be true in Florida in the summer though to run the AC in the 30+ humidity.

A long way apparently is 60k...before you plug it in.

GostHacked · July 15, 2009

To bad GM did not make the push for the EV1. What kind of advancements could have taken place during this time frame.

I think that cars in Canadian winters and winter in the northern US should actually be hybrids. Batteries (this may have changed with certain types of batteries) don't last that long in the cold, they lose much of their charge just because of temerature.

I do use some lithium ion batteries for our voice units (I am in IT) and the batteries do keep a charge for the guys in the freezer, the charge lasts the whole shift. To me this is proof we can accomplish this.

Dave_ON · July 15, 2009

To bad GM did not make the push for the EV1. What kind of advancements could have taken place during this time frame.
I think that cars in Canadian winters and winter in the northern US should actually be hybrids. Batteries (this may have changed with certain types of batteries) don't last that long in the cold, they lose much of their charge just because of temerature.

I do use some lithium ion batteries for our voice units (I am in IT) and the batteries do keep a charge for the guys in the freezer, the charge lasts the whole shift. To me this is proof we can accomplish this.

I'm certain it can be done, but how soon and how much more will it cost. The second problem is the utter lack of recharging facilities, unless you own a private residence, (ie. you don't rent or own a condo) you won't have a place to recharge your car, therefore you won't buy an electric only vehicle.

GostHacked · July 15, 2009

I'm certain it can be done, but how soon and how much more will it cost. The second problem is the utter lack of recharging facilities, unless you own a private residence, (ie. you don't rent or own a condo) you won't have a place to recharge your car, therefore you won't buy an electric only vehicle.

The EV1, used a standard electric outlet. We can already use existing infrastructure. You don't need to spend a lot of money on beefing up the system at all. If companies are smart about it and don't try to implement proprietary connectors then we will be in fine shape. We can use and utilize existing outlets to charge vehicles with. One problem solved.

In most parts of Canada this is really not an issue for outlets. Most places have a outlet close to the garage/car port so we can plug in the engine block heater. Even most apartment complexes and rental places have posts with two outlets on them, just for block heaters. So Canada might be in better shape than the US for this kind of change over. We already have most of it in place.

But, you have to start somewhere. And if money is always holding you back, then innovation and advancement won't take place as fast, if at all. Sure it will hurt for a bit, but that is better than trying to figure it out after we run out of the black gold. The longer we wait, the more painfull and costly it will be to change over to a new system. We could have 10 years on this already if the EV1 was pushed more as a viable option. The advancements that have been made in the few short years hybrids and electric vehicles have existed proves that it can happen if you are willing to take the plunge. Honda and Toyota are doing quite well in this field.

Craig1 · July 15, 2009

Strap one of these to the roof and good to go

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/...90709205950.htm

GostHacked · July 15, 2009

Strap one of these to the roof and good to go
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/...90709205950.htm

Check out this boat.

http://www.solarnavigator.net/solar_boats.htm

and these

http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/volitan/volitan...ergy-323013.php

Air foils that act as a sail, and also is covered with solar cells. Ingenious!! The entire top of a vehicle can support solar cells, If you can get them in different colours, then you have a hot top seller on your hands.

How about solar cells charge the batteries, use the rear wheels to propell the vehicle, and use the front wheels to generate and recharge the batteries. ALMOST perpetual motion and zero emmissions.

tango · July 16, 2009

I recall reading last year that McGuinty didn't want to go ahead with smaller cars because of limits to existing infrastructure, that they wanted to roll it all out at once - with battery exchange stations attached to existing gas stns.

Power would come from ... (David Crombie et al)

http://www.bullfrogpower.com/

So I read back then. It seemed to me that we in the city shouldn't have to wait to get a small cheap electric car until the 905 is equipped with highway-certified cars and battery stations.

I think it's a scam - monopolies supported by the government that won't certify smaller cars for city use - to prevent us from buying the cheaper cars.

Edited July 16, 2009 by tango

M.Dancer · July 16, 2009

- to prevent us from buying the cheaper cars.

Don't kid yourself....the electric car isn't cheap..no new tech is. The Volt, which may be the industy leader (and is small) starts at 40,000. The Quebec car (whos name escapes me) which is a glorified golf cart also has a hefty (abeit less than $40K).

tango · July 16, 2009

Don't kid yourself....the electric car isn't cheap..no new tech is. The Volt, which may be the industy leader (and is small) starts at 40,000. The Quebec car (whos name escapes me) which is a glorified golf cart also has a hefty (abeit less than $40K).

Only because we're not allowed to buy the cheap ones. They won't certify them for the highway, and they won't set different standards for the city. <_<

India - 85,000 rupees - $2000cdn

China - around 5-7000 or cheaper

http://img.alibaba.com/photo/202887679_1/electric_car.jpg

Edited July 16, 2009 by tango

M.Dancer · July 16, 2009

Only because we're not allowed to buy the cheap ones. They won't certify them for the highway, and they won't set different standards for the city.
India - 85,000 rupees - $2000cdn

China - around 5-7000 or cheaper

http://img.alibaba.com/photo/202887679_1/electric_car.jpg

Well, those indian cars aren't electric, have a very very small engine (30 horsepower) and there are concerns that the engine is dirty and the vehicle is unsafe in low speed crashes--no air bags...all of which means that unless the add value to the car, it won't be sold here at all.

The Chinese car I have heard, is unsafe even when parked.

Machjo · July 16, 2009

Hmmm... couldn't they spend that money on education instead so as to prepare the unemployed to fight the upcoming inflation?

The way they're going now with their total lack of planning, they might as well just make the counterfeit printing of money legal for a month, and we'd have the same effect.

Expect inflation and interest rates to go through the roof once we're out of this recession if this is how they intend to just randomly spend their way out of recession. How about developing the workforce so that it's prepared when the recession is over?

tango · July 16, 2009

Well, those indian cars aren't electric, have a very very small engine (30 horsepower) and there are concerns that the engine is dirty and the vehicle is unsafe in low speed crashes--no air bags...all of which means that unless the add value to the car, it won't be sold here at all.
The Chinese car I have heard, is unsafe even when parked.

Skip the Indian one then. But why can't we use the small ones in the city?

It's mostly pedestrians killed in the cities.

Chuck U. Farlie · July 16, 2009

So far this idea hasn't garnered very much positive criticism:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-inves...article1219477/

Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty announces the province's electric vehicle rebate Wednesday in Toronto
‘If it takes a bribe of $10,000 to get a consumer into these products then the technology will never succeed,' consultant says of Ontario plan

And nevermind that an increased demand in electricity will just result in 1. possible higher electricity costs as demand increases and 2. and increase in electrical production by coal and nuclear power (I presume they can't easily tap into more hydro power) - all of this energy has to come from somewhere.

I don't mean to be a naysayer.... I like the idea of an electric car someday, but should the Ontario government be subsidizing the relatively wealthy (able to afford at least $30k on a car) to try out new and unproven technology?

M.Dancer · July 16, 2009

Skip the Indian one then. But why can't we use the small ones in the city?
It's mostly pedestrians killed in the cities.

While it's easy to say and enforce a traffic code that says, you can't ride a moped on a highway, how do you do that with what is in effect a car?

The regulations we have on vehicles were initially fought tooth and nail by the auto makers saying (rightly) it would make them more expensive....but then they discovered consumers care about saftey....and now they fall over themselves to ensure that their vehicles get high ratings....doesn't matter if it's highway or city, a crash at 50K into a another car going 50k is like hitting a wall going 100k.

tango · July 16, 2009

While it's easy to say and enforce a traffic code that says, you can't ride a moped on a highway, how do you do that with what is in effect a car?
The regulations we have on vehicles were initially fought tooth and nail by the auto makers saying (rightly) it would make them more expensive....but then they discovered consumers care about saftey....and now they fall over themselves to ensure that their vehicles get high ratings....doesn't matter if it's highway or city, a crash at 50K into a another car going 50k is like hitting a wall going 100k.

I don't like monopolies, and that's how this is set up. Safety is just their excuse, imo.

It just seems like an 'inside job' to me. stinks

M.Dancer · July 16, 2009

I don't like monopolies, and that's how this is set up. Safety is just their excuse, imo.
It just seems like an 'inside job' to me. stinks

What monopoly?

tango · July 16, 2009

What monopoly?

I think the power stations will be, and perhaps monopoly is the wrong word - restriction of choice perhaps - but I don't see why we can't buy electric cars that are not for highway use.

M.Dancer · July 16, 2009

I think the power stations will be, and perhaps monopoly is the wrong word - restriction of choice perhaps - but I don't see why we can't buy electric cars that are not for highway use.

You can. They're called golf carts.

stranger little · July 16, 2009

I think we need a more useful and better subsidized public transit system. Transferring our mobile needs strictly to electricity, when we are base-loading with natural gas, isn't really going to change much. We need more nuclear in the mix, but then again, the wind and gas industry are the only ones with tongues in Smithermens' ear right now!!!

tango · July 16, 2009

You can. They're called golf carts.

I don't believe we can use those on the road.

M.Dancer · July 16, 2009

I don't believe we can use those on the road.

There's always the Piaggio Ape....but there's a price tag to it being so cute and all.

Craig1 · July 16, 2009

I think we need a more useful and better subsidized public transit system. Transferring our mobile needs strictly to electricity, when we are base-loading with natural gas, isn't really going to change much. We need more nuclear in the mix, but then again, the wind and gas industry are the only ones with tongues in Smithermens' ear right now!!!

Most of the power for electric cars can come from the sun using 18th century technology the stirling engine combined with parabolic mirrors in California they will power 1 million homes this way by 2010. I think we will start to see more home generation with devices like the Whispergen either conected to natural gas or bio fuels wich means you don't need to be hoocked to the grid at all. Best part about stirling technology is it's 38% ificiency compaired to the gas engine of 26%. With electric engines you don't need oil or lubricants this will create a less demand for oil and gas.

I have been experimanting generating 800 watts of power with my steam engine powered by a solar collector, we also use it for "free" hot water and heating. Best part you can now sell up to 1 kw of power back to the grid, if you like.

Edited July 16, 2009 by Craig1