Unions in Canada

punked · July 31, 2009

Many European social democrats are not particularly allied with unions though. It's not about giving unions the right to strike, walk out, etc. but rather about giving standards for both the public and private sectors. That's very different from the NDP, which is a labour party all the way.

Yah you don't think the British Labour Party wasn't a "Labour Party" until they took real power? You seem bad at history so far.

M.Dancer · July 31, 2009

See that just isn't true and the recession proves that. You can cut, and cut, and cut during a recession to a non union worker and all they do is whine, but when those end do their wages or benefits come back? Almost never, however as we have seen with the unions they are able to take up and stop the cutting because once this recession ends they know everything cut wont be coming back.

Replace non union worker with unskilled worker and you wouold still have only half a point.

Take the city of toronto strike. Clearly the union is out of touch with reality.

All I can say about that is, I hope the agreement is rejected oin council and the strike goes on l.ong enough for the banks to start repoing cars and homes.

Unions must come to grips with reality. Raises aren't automatic and there is no reason for management to pay workers more simply because. If the worker can add value, he deserves a raise. Otherwise be content and there is always someone better abled who will want the job for less.

Perobnally in the garbage strike, I think the city's offer should be this, the city should tender the garbare contract and get 5 quotes. They should then present those quotes to CUPE and say here, you want your jobs, beat these quotes. Otherwise we will certainly make sure the winning bid will be required to hire some of you.

Then before they have decided replacement workers will start handling the garbage....with police escorts if needed.

Machjo · July 31, 2009

If workers can't shut the business down, then they are just slaves with no power. If unions have no power, NO WORKERS have any power and all wages will drop, yours too. If scabs are allowed to work, the power of ALL workers is destroyed.

And a point on 'scabs'. When a person decides to 'scab', do we know his story? Maybe he's trying to make ends meet, trying to get a foot in the door to better himself in the world. And what does the friendly union do? Spit in his face, push, shove, insult, anything to protect their turf. Unions are among the most capitalist ideas going today!

No wonder even the European social democrats don't heed them too much anymore. Even Sweden has gone for the school voucher as a means of breaking the back of the teacherss' unions! And Sweden is known as a very progressive social democratic, even moderate socialist country. European social democracy is nothing like its NDP counterpart in Canada. The NDP is labour socialist, whereas most socialists in Europe are social democrats. They even have two-tiered healthcare. Essentially, they're moderate socialists, and that's probably why socialism worked in Europe but not here. Whereas the European social democrats were willing to accept moderation, the NDP is way too hard-nosed.

Machjo · July 31, 2009

Yah you don't think the British Labour Party wasn't a "Labour Party" until they took real power? You seem bad at history so far.

Sorry, i forgot about the British. I was thinking more continental. In Germany, for instance, workers have a vote on the board of directors of companies! This is not conditional on the company being unionized or not. This is just universal, thus making the union more or less redundant. Sweden has actively promoted the workers' co-op movement for years, again independently of whether they were unionized or not. The NDP just wants to give unions more power. Unions are not necessarily synonymous with workers, or people in general. They're just a special interest group.

madmax · July 31, 2009

Ummm......i would hazard to guess that the middle class is about 10 times the size of union membership in Canada. And not all union jobs are high paying either.

The Middle, Lower and Upper Class combined, might be. Again... alot has to do with what used to be the Defasco effect, or the Toyota effect. Essentially similar wages and benefits, and HR policy. Thus the blanket of Unionism covers a broad spectrum. Just as the Union Wage declines, so do the Non Union Wage.

Absolutely correct about Many Union Jobs not high paying. Often Minimum wage jobs are as little as 75c/hour higher in a Union Shop. Ofcourse without the Union, they'd be minimum wage jobs... LOL.

The wages of today for most sectors would not be as high today without that burst after WW2 when the veterans came back and demanded and expected more. And they got it. Similarly Public Sector Pay and benefits would still be the low wages of the past without obtaining the right to unionize.

Regardless. In the Private Sector, unions do not have the Power to fight head to head with Global Capital and the 3rd world market. Nor can a Union get anywheres close to equal footing of global cartels.

Many of the corporate practices create a greater imbalance in society then a Union.

Some people think that there is some kind of "Union Power" out there that appears to take on battles.

My experience has been to see small groups of 20 to 300 people in smaller shops trying to maintain their working conditions against the demands of Global Capitalists. This happens in a shop by shop basis and their is no sign of "Solidarity" among the same union let alone other Unions.

Either the people working in the facility want to take the risk of a strike, (Rarely Occurs), or they reach an agreement. Those going on strike are on their own. They can only count on one another and no one else. No white knight or help arrives. You dig yourself in and you get strike pay. Hopefully the company is still interested in Negotiations or you might have walked yourself for years. Being on strike, days, weekends, nights evenings and holidays is no picnic.

Article: Vegetable plant workers end 2-year strike
United Steelworkers members, company employees of Neenah Paper, which sold its Terrace Bay pulp mill to Buchanan Forest products in June of 2006, marked a two-year strike here on Wednesday.

A 2-year work stoppage between the Kaiser Aluminum and Chemical Corporation and the United Steelworkers of America (USWA) came to an end on

Strike at Guardian nears 2-year mark

April 14, 2009

Rob O'Flanagan

A strike at the Guardian Fibreglass plant in Erin is approaching the two-year mark

Strikes are going longer, a year is getting to be the norm, and often they start to fizzle out and the employees lose their jobs completely. This are reasons. The company is screwed and you can't get blood from a stone. It could be an orchestrated move to get you out the door. Or the company has a great war chest and a goal in mind. The... Because we can...

I tend to find that when the company goes after the general labour and forces holidays cut backs, such as cutting back the number of weeks, say 4 weeks in 20 years back to 3 weeks or 6 weeks in 20 years back to 4 weeks, it isn't long afterwards that they do the same to the Salaried Management Staff, and claw the no of vacation weeks back. Then they normally change the management staffs pension plan, tell them its better and the upper management retain their DB plan...LOL.

Today, many of the companies I have associations with are doing a rollover. They are hiring new people (Plenty of skilled to pick from) and rolling out their longer service employees with a little higher wages and holidays. Many of these places have no benefits, and as there are no Unions, you normally don't last 12 to 26 years without pulling your weight. Turnover is very high at these places, so the guys that made it this long, look pretty damned shocked to see themselves walked out the door.

Now, they can be replaced, and the new person has less holidays and similar skills, years of experience and backgrounds, and work through the temp agencies on the promise they will be hired. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA... suckers. They even do this with their own HR Staff... LOL.

Regardless, electrician rates are dropping down to $17.... and someone will take it and they can get rid of their $24 to $27 electrician.

Quite frankly, there isn't a field out there that couldn't be forced into taking less money. Especially in the business community and financial sectors.

But luckily many people are not forced into this.

Can unions stop this... Not necessarily, but they can bargain the best scenario if the company is serious about survival. But if the companies intent is to Union bust... the Union is likely to fall. They have little leverage.

Machjo · July 31, 2009

Just look up the Swedish school voucher system. Not too friendly towards teachers' unions now is it. And dont' tell me Sweden is more capitalist than Canada. I think we all know its history as a very social-democratic country.

punked · July 31, 2009

Replace non union worker with unskilled worker and you wouold still have only half a point.
Take the city of toronto strike. Clearly the union is out of touch with reality.

All I can say about that is, I hope the agreement is rejected oin council and the strike goes on l.ong enough for the banks to start repoing cars and homes.

Unions must come to grips with reality. Raises aren't automatic and there is no reason for management to pay workers more simply because. If the worker can add value, he deserves a raise. Otherwise be content and there is always someone better abled who will want the job for less.

Perobnally in the garbage strike, I think the city's offer should be this, the city should tender the garbare contract and get 5 quotes. They should then present those quotes to CUPE and say here, you want your jobs, beat these quotes. Otherwise we will certainly make sure the winning bid will be required to hire some of you.

Then before they have decided replacement workers will start handling the garbage....with police escorts if needed.

Those garbage workers weren't fighting for a raise they wanted their benefits not cut just becuase their is a recession. They did receive a raise not enough to combat projected inflation so they will be earning less and did that through giving up some benefits they were fighting to keep.

Yah cause quotes go so well how well did that Bruce nuclear plant quote go? 300 million over budget? Wow that was just great. The Private sector is soooooo great sometimes.

Now you are ready to pull police off the streets to collect garbage you plan is unstoppable I am glade you aren't in charge.

Machjo · July 31, 2009

Because they did vote in the "right" Candidate Mckenzie King he promised the sky then after the election put all the promise in a box and did whatever he felt like. He promised a Pension Plan but did not deliver until the Progressives almost brought down the government over it, he promised a Health Care act it took Tommy Douglas to do that, Welfare, a minim wage the list goes on and on.
Strikes were busted up, and leaders sent a packing. During the Winnipeg General Strike one man died and 3 were deported. Davis day is a holiday every year in NS to commemorate William Davis. A striking Coal miner who was shot and killed because he didn't think it right to cut the power to an entire town who tried to unionize the mines. You talk as if they were easy times to strike when unions were formed.

I'm not saying management is necessarily any better. I've already mentioned above that, rather than go the labour-socialist way of giving unions more power to stike, thus encouraging more belligerance on both sides of the fight, why not do what they've done in some European countries and just give workers some voting rights on the board of directors, and promote a more collaborative rather than confrontational environment in the workplace.

punked · July 31, 2009

Just look up the Swedish school voucher system. Not too friendly towards teachers' unions now is it. And dont' tell me Sweden is more capitalist than Canada. I think we all know its history as a very social-democratic country.

You got a real problem here becuase the North American way of looking at school is totally different then Sweden and most European school system. North America they believe every student can and should learn. That means students go too school and have to take certain courses to pass all the way through. This includes something like A grade 11 English, Math, Science, whatever.

However Europe often tracks kids, so private schools are used to a higher degree becuase the public system can not handle all the magnet schools. So you will have kids form the time they are 11 or 12 on a track to become a pipe fitter, or an engineer. The public school system can not handle training and coming up with course work for all these different types of programs. It wasn't designed to break the unions back it was done becuase the publics schools could not handle the work load in this type of system.

You have also remember they are not charged with handling all the work and money for special needs in that type of system. It is a very different subject then you claim. In fact becuase the private schools are so small educating maybe 7-10% of the population in Sweden and Teachers always have the option to jump from private to public schools both earn about the same wages and the unions there support school Choice in their system.

punked · July 31, 2009

I'm not saying management is necessarily any better. I've already mentioned above that, rather than go the labour-socialist way of giving unions more power to stike, thus encouraging more belligerance on both sides of the fight, why not do what they've done in some European countries and just give workers some voting rights on the board of directors, and promote a more collaborative rather than confrontational environment in the workplace.

I am all for Co-Operatives. However I doubt private companies would be for giving the workers a vote on their boards.

madmax · July 31, 2009

And a point on 'scabs'. When a person decides to 'scab', do we know his story? Maybe he's trying to make ends meet, trying to get a foot in the door to better himself in the world. And what does the friendly union do? Spit in his face, push, shove, insult, anything to protect their turf. Unions are among the most capitalist ideas going today!

Bolded Comment first... OF course they are.. Unions from the 1800s forward were designed to get them closer to the playing field of the capitalists who were sticking it to the worker. That is hardly a surprise and there is no reason for that to change.

As for the SCAB... Give your head a shake. The scab is often paid more then the Union Employee he/she is replacing. Many times they are put up in hotels, but if not, they are givin breakfast, Bus Rides, Lunches, and Rides Back. Private Security provides the escort and the Police normally take the security firm at their word. I have some choice videos, but as they are before the court system.... well see if they ever make the evening news, but some of the shit that goes on is priceless and it ain't the strikers.

Quite Frankly if you knew what went on on a picket line... a spit in the face, often results in the police showing up at the offenders door at 2am in the morning and giving them a finger print session and a booking. A shove is definitely cause for arrest, and happens immediately, including belly bumps. Often the disputes are started by the private security whos purpose is to agitate and video tape. Think of Hockey and the retalation penalties. Shit happens and courts are not designed for justice anymore then a ref hands out justice. They don't. Its just doing a job, sometimes onesides, sometimes not.

Insults or glares shouted at a bus with tinted windows and video taped from the inside are sent to the police station. Those people are then rounded up and charged with mischief although the police start off by explaining threats... etc.

Do I know the history of the Scab... yes. Some are skilled or semi skilled and sometimes formerly union presidents from other union shops long closed. They are people who need to feed their families and are trying to supplement their immediate needs.

Many hope it turns into a full time position...sometimes it can ...... sometimes not.

Some Fulltime Scabs are like travelling Carnival workers, going from place to place with the security firms. THeir purpose is to do the labour and be flexible and well trained. Many laugh at the suckers outside as they are bussed into their new found job. They know their purpose is to bust the Union, and once that is done, they do not stay with the company, they continue to work with the Security firms of which there are many.

Do I know what a SCAB is....

To Quote Jack London....

After God had finished the rattlesnake, the toad, and the vampire, He had some awful substance left with which He made a scab. A scab is a two-legged animal with a corkscrew soul, a waterlogged brain, and a combination backbone made of jelly and glue. Where others have hearts, he carries a tumor of rotten principles.
When a scab comes down the street, men turn their backs and angels weep in heaven, and the devil shuts the gates of hell to keep him out. No man has a right to scab as long as there is a pool of water deep enough to drown his body in, or a rope long enough to hang his carcass with. Judas Iscariot was a gentleman compared with a scab. For betraying his Master, he had character enough to hang himself. A scab hasn't.

I have no use for a SCAB

Edited July 31, 2009 by madmax

madmax · July 31, 2009

As I've mentioned before, unions should have no legal recognition. If they go on strike, as far as I'm concerned, that's equal to not showing up for work as the contract requires, risking a few red slips.

Then you miss something...

They must show up to work when under contract. Not showing up or "Striking" will result in pink slip while under contract if that is the companies intention.

However, one aspect that companies like to use against long term employees in a Union is to get them to walk out. When in a position to get long term employees and replace them with scabs... you don't have to pay severance...

As opposed to saying... look Timmy, you've worked here 22 years and done alot for us, but its time to go, your legs aren't good anymore, you move a slow footed and young Tommy is ready to do your job. We are going to pay you termination and severance and see you later, good luck on your future endeavours...

Machjo · July 31, 2009

You got a real problem here becuase the North American way of looking at school is totally different then Sweden and most European school system. North America they believe every student can and should learn. That means students go too school and have to take certain courses to pass all the way through. This includes something like A grade 11 English, Math, Science, whatever.
However Europe often tracks kids, so private schools are used to a higher degree becuase the public system can not handle all the magnet schools. So you will have kids form the time they are 11 or 12 on a track to become a pipe fitter, or an engineer. The public school system can not handle training and coming up with course work for all these different types of programs. It wasn't designed to break the unions back it was done becuase the publics schools could not handle the work load in this type of system.

You have also remember they are not charged with handling all the work and money for special needs in that type of system. It is a very different subject then you claim. In fact becuase the private schools are so small educating maybe 7-10% of the population in Sweden and Teachers always have the option to jump from private to public schools both earn about the same wages and the unions there support school Choice in their system.

And what would be so wrong with tracking? At least that way everyone would have a skill in the workforce when they graduate. If we train everyone as if they're going to go on to university, then if they don't go on to university, their skills are crap in the workplace. And not everyone can be a scientist, even if they were all smart enough to be one. The economy just wouldn't allow for that.

As for unions, it's nice to see that teir unions did not feel threatened by school choice unlike ours seem to be.

madmax · July 31, 2009

On the contrary. The private sector must pay high taxes to maintain public sector wages!

Your taxes have been going down.

What is the economic value of shutting a business down? If the business is shut down, no one produces anything, which hurts the employer and the workers. They can't squeeze water out of a rock now can they?

WHat is the economic value of a company shutting down as opposed to signing a contract? If you can squeeze water out of a rock, you aren't going on strike for more money. If that Rock is merely a SPONGE disguised as a ROCK, then you can squeeze until it runs down your leg.

The market determines the wages. So yes, it have much to do with the wages. That's why I'd say scrap the minimum wage and just give workers voting rights instead.

The market is one variable in wages. Hardly the determinant factor. The Labour Market has many variables. Often the price of Labour is not the determinant in the survivability of an enterprise.

Power can determine the wage. Intimidation from above can determine the wage. A Union can determine a wage to a degree.

Profit Margins and the ability to get at those dollars can determine a wage.

In the end you can't get blood from a stone.

And if your solution is to work for ...

$9.5... no $9 no 8.5, no $7 no $5 ... $4 $3 $2 $1 to Someone will work for food because it better then working for $.50 to working for food everyother day to undercut the person working for food every day... to lowering the age of employment to 7 years of age..... LOL....

ITs been done before and Capitalism failed lif the wages of the Employee by relying on the invisible hand of the market or the generosity of capitalism.

Minimum wages were first proposed as a way to control the proliferation of sweat shops in manufacturing industries. The sweat shops employed large numbers of women and young workers, paying them what were considered to be substandard wages. The sweatshop owners were thought to have unfair bargaining power over their workers, and a minimum wage was proposed as a means to make them pay "fairly." Over time, the focus changed to helping people, especially families, become more self sufficient. Today, minimum wage laws cover workers in most low-paid fields of employment.

The argument that minimum wages decrease employment is based on a standard supply and demand model of the labor market. A number of economists (for example Pierangelo Garegnani[14] and Robert L. Vienneau[15]), building on the work of Piero Sraffa, argue that that model, even given all its assumptions, is logically incoherent. Michael Anyadike-Danes and Wyne Godley [16] argue, based on simulation results, that little of the empirical work done with the textbook model constitutes a potentially falsifying test, and, consequently, empirical evidence hardly exists for that model. Graham White [17] argues, partially on the basis of Sraffianism, that the policy of increased labor market flexibility, including the reduction of minimum wages, does not have an "intellectually coherent" argument in economic theory.

In 1992, the minimum wage in New Jersey increased from $4.25 to $5.05 per hour (an 18.8% increase) while the adjacent state of Pennsylvania remained at $4.25. David Card and Alan Krueger gathered information on fast food restaurants in New Jersey and eastern Pennsylvania in an attempt to see what effect this increase had on employment within New Jersey. Basic economic theory would have implied that relative employment should have decreased in New Jersey. Card and Krueger surveyed employers before the April 1992 New Jersey increase, and again in November-December 1992, asking managers for data on the full-time equivalent staff level of their restaurants both times.[45] Based on the employers' responses, the authors concluded that the increase in the minimum wage increased employment in the New Jersey restaurants.[46]

However, there is this alternative... which won't work if you have your way and eliminate the Unions right to collective bargaining...

Collective bargaining

Sweden is an example of a developed nation where there is no minimum wage that is required by legislation. Instead, minimum wage standards in different sectors are set by collective bargaining.

Here is a bit on the history in Canada on the minimum wage..

If you found yourself as an unskilled, uneducated worker in the 19th century, you were on your own in Canada. There were no minimum wage standards anywhere in the country; no labour code to protect you from exploitation. Employers could pay workers as little as they wanted and many did just that. Craft unions arrived in the latter part of the century and were often able to win improvements in pay and working conditions. By 1912, as many as 160,000 Canadians were members of a union — often in such areas as mining and the railways.
The first minimum wage legislation in Canada was passed in 1918 by both British Columbia and Manitoba. Two years later, Ontario, Quebec, Nova Scotia, and Saskatchewan followed suit. Interestingly, these early wage laws applied only to women and only to some kinds of employment. According to a labour law analysis by Human Resources Development Canada, the thinking at the time was that labour unions (which represented male workers) could do a better job of ensuring that men earned a living wage by bargaining on their behalf.

punked · July 31, 2009

And what would be so wrong with tracking? At least that way everyone would have a skill in the workforce when they graduate. If we train everyone as if they're going to go on to university, then if they don't go on to university, their skills are crap in the workplace. And not everyone can be a scientist, even if they were all smart enough to be one. The economy just wouldn't allow for that.
As for unions, it's nice to see that teir unions did not feel threatened by school choice unlike ours seem to be.

OK that is fine if you want to track go ahead, but we don't do in North America. We are the only place in the world who tries to educated every student in set outcomes. If they don't want to go to university that fine at least they can read, write, do math, and understand the world better they can still go to collage to learn whatever skill they want to learn.

They don't feel threatened becuase almost all the private school attendees are former homeschool children often from religious fundamentalist families. They want to send their kids to a school where they know evolution wont be taught, and school pry will be a thing which is welcome. The largest "private" school in Sweden is an online schools with 10,000 students enrolled in it. That is fine but the Teacher unions have found out most people like their public schools and they have lost no influence, becuase if a private school does something the unionist don't like the teachers can always jump to the publics school be in the union and force new standards on the system. It was never designed to break the union it was designed to offer choice in a very different system then in North America. You have been listening to too much right wing radio.

madmax · July 31, 2009

And what would be so wrong with tracking? At least that way everyone would have a skill in the workforce when they graduate. If we train everyone as if they're going to go on to university, then if they don't go on to university, their skills are crap in the workplace. And not everyone can be a scientist, even if they were all smart enough to be one. The economy just wouldn't allow for that.

You are on the right track....

As for unions, it's nice to see that teir unions did not feel threatened by school choice unlike ours seem to be.

THere is Union Rep on virtually all Training and Adjustment boards. Unions are not threatened by school choice. THey are threatened by the rampant deskilling of the workplace while governments hype retraining for non existant jobs.

Going to University often requires followup in College and sometimes visa versa.

Tech shops are scaled back because they cost the most to run in the high school and academics are the first to point the finger at the shop classes when budget cuts are implemented.

Fact is, if you go to University, your first few years in the workplace, you are a burden to everyone if you find a job. Green and wet behind the ears, often working on theory alone and theory for business models. If you don't find a job in your field in those first few years... often you are working for minimum wages unless you got a good job in a Union SHop as a student because of a family relative. This is very helpful if you require to continue to educate yourself to make your skills more attractive, or buy time until you ahve found a suitable employer.

You are correct, the economy cannot handle everyone as a scientist...

But China and India can pump out more in a year then we can educate in a lifetime.

whowhere · July 31, 2009

But China and India can pump out more in a year then we can educate in a lifetime.

So what's are you saying? Bring all the educated chinese and East Indian people to pursue all the meaningful jobs? Bringing in Foreigners to drive Canada's inovation only shows how lost Canada really is. Canada is nothing but a blight to the world who has embraced globalization to the point of being a world whore. Canada's labour market is a predatory exploitative market.

Our politicians have the ability to strengthen Canada's work force but the Conservatives have chosen to sell Canadians out. In principal I support Unions because a Union is able to negotiate a fair deal for your efforts. However, I have experienced Corruption to the highest level from the Union. I was in a Union that would not file a grievance to stop my employment from being harassed because of this my treatment fell below all the applicable labour laws. I was powerless to stop this abuse so I was forced to leave the employment.

My experience has shown the Union bureacracies to be power mongering corrupt entitu who are only interested in the dues coming from the members pay cheque. If they have to sell you out to keep them coming they will. I know first hand how corrupt Canada is.

Don't for a minute think our politicians can't do right by everyone, because they can but they have chosen to create Canada in the Conservatives Ugly image: A nation of exploitation and selfish greed whores.

benny · August 1, 2009

With out Unions the middle class dies. End of story. A lot of people credit WW2 with the creation of the middle class but they forget the largest union boom happened at the sametime. I don't think I am ok with the middle class dieing but a lot of people are.

The middle class is essentially the means by which capitalists buy (whatever thin) majorities in elections.

punked · August 1, 2009

The middle class is essentially the means by which capitalists buy (whatever thin) majorities in elections.

That is the poors fault for not voting.

benny · August 1, 2009

That is the poors fault for not voting.

It is not about voting, it is about being divided.

punked · August 1, 2009

It is not about voting, it is about being divided.

Agreed actually.

benny · August 1, 2009

Agreed actually.

Here the toughest part to swallow: "democracy" comes from the linguistic base "da-" which means to divide.

jbg · August 17, 2009

M just had a huge brain fart, oh ya NORTEL! employees who were promised pensions and after 30 years of service this Corperation said "thank you we failed horibly, and well you have no pension" we don't care about you. But you also have stupid unions like the auto workers who allowed GM control of pensions (not a real union if you ask me)

Not so tue the largest union in North America is a trades union for blue collar workers. M just had a huge brain fart, oh ya NORTEL! employees who were promised pensions and after 30 years of service this Corperation said "thank you we failed horibly, and well you have no pension" we don't care about you. But you also have stupid unions like the auto workers who allowed GM control of pensions (not a real union if you ask me)

How are these posts different from each other? And explain how a "brain fart" sounds?

jbg · August 17, 2009

my dad also has a poster of the code of excellece posted on our living room wall. maybe you should read it sometime.

Can you send us an invitation and plane fare, or at least copy it down. Your posts are truly an exemplar of excellence and quality, for all to emulate.

benny · August 17, 2009

Can you send us an invitation and plane fare, or at least copy it down. Your posts are truly an exemplar of excellence and quality, for all to emulate.

ISO 2009