Caledonia militia?

[Wild Bill]

http://www.thespec.com/article/583933

"About a week ago, Ohsweken resident Stephen (Boots) Powless, 44, decided to set up a smoke shack on Palmer’s land on Highway 6 just outside Caledonia to call attention to ongoing land claim disputes. He called up Palmer and let him know he was coming.

Powless was charged with mischief a week after a violent clash at the Stirling Woods subdivision in 2007 that left developer Sam Gualtieri with serious head injuries. Last year, the Crown dropped all charges against Powless and three other protesters."

This is a complicated issue for me. Apparently, Powless decided to set up a smoke shack on Palmer's land, claiming he had the right since the land was 'stolen'. Palmer had some talks with Powless and other protesters and claims he had an agreement from them to leave after a few days, having made their point.

Then Doug Fleming, a local resident began to talk about forming a citizen militia to protect the townsfolks and their property, since the OPP no longer performs that function in any native issue disputes. Powless immediately equated this to the "KKK" and says he'll NEVER leave!

Now Palmer blames Fleming for escalating the situation!

Now, we have to take Powless' words with a grain of salt. We have no way of knowing if he in fact intended to honour any agreement with Palmer to leave after a few days. Given what had happened to Sam Gualtieri it's possible Palmer felt intimidated. Or maybe Palmer is a Six Nations supporter and just wanted to help them set the scene for their protest. Who knows?

Still, calling Fleming a Klansman is totally over the top! It seems like the usual knee-jerk reaction to any criticism of a native position, trying to make non-natives feel ashamed and guilty for daring to disagree with the Gospel according to Six Nations.

Regardless, Powless is selling tobacco off the reserve, which is illegal. Of course, why not? Nobody is going to stop him! Do it long enough and the protesters will end up with a legal easement for having squatted on the land for a sufficient length of time!

I perfectly understand the feelings of Caledonians as to forming their own militia. When the OPP tells a frightened woman not to bother calling when natives are milling around in her front yard, confronting her husband, since they will not help her, what else are the townsfolk supposed to do? Just keep suffering in silence so that they don't embarrass McGuinty and Fantino?

Still, I don't approve. This is precisely the sort of escalation that has been obvious all along. It is NOT a good thing! It leads to disrespect for the law and its agents and vigilantism. It makes violence MORE likely, not less.

That being said, again I say that the solution is not to have the townsfolk suffer in silence.

However, if it's Palmer's land and he trusted Powless in an agreement then that's his right! He choose to talk out a solution and he felt he had one. If he later was proven wrong and then was sorry he would have only himself to blame.

What I don't understand is how Powless can hold Palmer responsible for what SOMEONE ELSE said and break his agreement! Palmer never was involved in any talk of a militia. For Powless to punish Palmer seems senseless, unless it's simply a case of "lumping all white men together".

I would have more respect for Powless if he kept his word to Palmer and then moved his smoke shack to FLEMING's property!

Edited June 18, 2009 by Wild Bill

[Bonam]

Militia sounds like a good idea to me. People have the right to defend themselves and their property, especially if the police aren't going to help them do it. I would have absolutely no tolerance if someone (native or otherwise) decided to set up a shack on my land.

[Oleg Bach]

Militia sounds like a good idea to me. People have the right to defend themselves and their property, especially if the police aren't going to help them do it. I would have absolutely no tolerance if someone (native or otherwise) decided to set up a shack on my land.

It's gotten to a point that I would almost never bother calling police for service or protection....The courts are sadistic - and the cops kind of like it when people are harrassed or attacked - because it seems no one has the will anymore to keep a society strong --- perhaps our leaders are so weak that they need us to be even more weak - and more apprehensive ---- for instance my son's girl friend - has a former boy friend who is quite crazy and stalked them for over a year by every manner available - police do not intervene untill their is a homocide or an assault -- they are lazy and there is no political will to protect and serve . just to maintain - thats it!

[Muddy]

Anarchy is alive and well in Canada for minorities and Native people. Unless of course your a WASP . The police think you should know better. I hope who ever replaces Fantino as head Cop of the OPP corrects this shameful time for an otherwise great Cops career. I never thought I would have harsh words for Fantino. The people of Caledonia have been deserted by the law inforcement . Shame on them and all levels of government who have condoned this anarchy.

[tango]

http://www.thespec.com/article/583933

"About a week ago, Ohsweken resident Stephen (Boots) Powless, 44, decided to set up a smoke shack on Palmer’s land on Highway 6 just outside Caledonia to call attention to ongoing land claim disputes. He called up Palmer and let him know he was coming.

Powless was charged with mischief a week after a violent clash at the Stirling Woods subdivision in 2007 that left developer Sam Gualtieri with serious head injuries. Last year, the Crown dropped all charges against Powless and three other protesters."

This is a complicated issue for me. Apparently, Powless decided to set up a smoke shack on Palmer's land, claiming he had the right since the land was 'stolen'. Palmer had some talks with Powless and other protesters and claims he had an agreement from them to leave after a few days, having made their point.

You have missed one significant event - the first one: Merlyn Kinrade announced that he will be leading a 'parade' of Canadian flags down Hwy 6 past the reclamation site/DCE.

Then Boots set up shop on Hwy 6.

Then Doug Fleming, a local resident began to talk about forming a citizen militia to protect the townsfolks and their property, since the OPP no longer performs that function in any native issue disputes. Powless immediately equated this to the "KKK" and says he'll NEVER leave!

Not quite ... he didn't say "never".

Powless said he was ready to pack up and leave when Fleming put out his call to form the militia.

“When they started talking ‘Caledonia Militia’ it reminded me of lynching parties down South,” he said. “They’re not different than the damned KKK (Klu Klux Klan). I’m not going to turn tail and run ... If the militia is coming after me, then let’s see them.”

Now Palmer blames Fleming for escalating the situation!

Now, we have to take Powless' words with a grain of salt. We have no way of knowing if he in fact intended to honour any agreement with Palmer to leave after a few days. Given what had happened to Sam Gualtieri it's possible Palmer felt intimidated. Or maybe Palmer is a Six Nations supporter and just wanted to help them set the scene for their protest. Who knows?

Still, calling Fleming a Klansman is totally over the top! It seems like the usual knee-jerk reaction to any criticism of a native position, trying to make non-natives feel ashamed and guilty for daring to disagree with the Gospel according to Six Nations.

Regardless, Powless is selling tobacco off the reserve, which is illegal. Of course, why not? Nobody is going to stop him! Do it long enough and the protesters will end up with a legal easement for having squatted on the land for a sufficient length of time!

I perfectly understand the feelings of Caledonians as to forming their own militia. When the OPP tells a frightened woman not to bother calling when natives are milling around in her front yard, confronting her husband, since they will not help her, what else are the townsfolk supposed to do? Just keep suffering in silence so that they don't embarrass McGuinty and Fantino?

Still, I don't approve. This is precisely the sort of escalation that has been obvious all along. It is NOT a good thing! It leads to disrespect for the law and its agents and vigilantism. It makes violence MORE likely, not less.

That being said, again I say that the solution is not to have the townsfolk suffer in silence.

However, if it's Palmer's land and he trusted Powless in an agreement then that's his right! He choose to talk out a solution and he felt he had one. If he later was proven wrong and then was sorry he would have only himself to blame.

What I don't understand is how Powless can hold Palmer responsible for what SOMEONE ELSE said and break his agreement! Palmer never was involved in any talk of a militia. For Powless to punish Palmer seems senseless, unless it's simply a case of "lumping all white men together".

I would have more respect for Powless if he kept his word to Palmer and then moved his smoke shack to FLEMING's property!

I expect he would have ... after Merlyn's 'parade' ... but not now with Dougie's "militia" coming after him.

What you have not made clear is that Dougie supposedly is forming his "militia" (of the usual suspects, all well known to the cops by now) in response to Boots' smoke shop on Palmer's property, but Palmer wants absolutely nothing to do with Dougie or his militia!

Then, on Sunday, local entrepreneur and activist Doug Fleming proposed forming a “Caledonia Militia” to “ensure the Criminal Code is upheld in Haldimand County.”

“The agreement that the natives were going to leave was destroyed by Doug Fleming,” an infuriated Palmer said today.

“My problem is with Doug Fleming,” Palmer said today.

And of course, you also didn't mention the fact that Dougie and the usual suspects also set up a smoke shop on Hwy 6 a while back. In fact, the Flemings have been at the forefront of many anti-native protest actions and seem to enjoy the spotlight.

It's also noteworthy that all Doug Fleming has done is suggest that a meeting be held next week to talk about the possibility of forming a "militia", and the media are ALL over it!

But are they reporting on the court process in Brantford that is setting a precedent for the whole country?

Of course not!

The Fleming fools, and their "militia" of ijits are much more interesting to the (Hamilton) media than the truth about Canadian law and Aboriginal rights!!

I agree with you that it is a complicated issue and I think it has become so mainly because the media love the silly antics of the out-of-town white supremacist-types and their minions - the 'usual suspects' among the anti-native element from Caledonia.

[tango]

It's gotten to a point that I would almost never bother calling police for service or protection....The courts are sadistic - and the cops kind of like it when people are harrassed or attacked - because it seems no one has the will anymore to keep a society strong --- perhaps our leaders are so weak that they need us to be even more weak - and more apprehensive ---- for instance my son's girl friend - has a former boy friend who is quite crazy and stalked them for over a year by every manner available - police do not intervene untill their is a homocide or an assault -- they are lazy and there is no political will to protect and serve . just to maintain - thats it!

Your comments are not particularly relevant to the topic, Oleg. Was that before the stalking law? Because you can get a restraining order now for that behaviour.

However, please confine yourself to the topic at hand, which is policing of native protests.

[tango]

Anarchy is alive and well in Canada for minorities and Native people. Unless of course your a WASP . The police think you should know better. I hope who ever replaces Fantino as head Cop of the OPP corrects this shameful time for an otherwise great Cops career. I never thought I would have harsh words for Fantino. The people of Caledonia have been deserted by the law inforcement . Shame on them and all levels of government who have condoned this anarchy.

That's an awful lot of generalizations with no supporting facts.

The people of Caledonia certainly have not been "deserted" by the OPP. In fact, there is a huge contingent of OPP in town.

However, the OPP have gotten to know 'the usual suspects' quite well, and after many many many false alarms, false reports and inciteful actions from this crew, have learned to ignore some of them.

It's ridiculous that Merlyn and Dougie, and in the background Gary McHale, Jeff Parkinson, and Mark Vandermaas, are inciting trouble again when there is nothing at all to be upset about. There's hardly anyone on the site these days, except when some of these yokels decide to make a stink.

I think they are just craving excitement. Too bad the OPP and everybody else has to put up with them. It also costs us a lot of money for policing when the ijits are out and about with their flags or their "militia" or whatever.

Just let the courts do their job, I say. That's the thinking of most Canadians, I think.

[Wild Bill]

I expect he would have ... after Merlyn's 'parade' ... but not now with Dougie's "militia" coming after him.

What you have not made clear is that Dougie supposedly is forming his "militia" (of the usual suspects, all well known to the cops by now) in response to Boots' smoke shop on Palmer's property, but Palmer wants absolutely nothing to do with Dougie or his militia!

I didn't know the entire history and frankly I don't see what difference it makes. I still don't understand why Powless is punishing Palmer for something Fleming talked about. I agree that Palmer made it quite clear that he wanted nothing to do with Fleming. Doesn't seem that Powless cares if Palmer is in with Fleming or not. Who is the racist here, I can't help but wonder.

I find the tone of your response odd, to say the least. It seems to imply that Powless was justified in his protest action of setting up a smoke shop on what he calls "stolen land". You seem to be a cheerleader, when you are very quick to attack any non-native for any protest action.

This is the very double standard that is offending non-natives!

If that is truly what you believe and that is the mindset of the protesters then it is truly futile to try and find any common ground. It only confirms that the native protesters want it ALL and feel whatever they do is perfectly justified and whatever the townsfolk do is absolutely wrong. In effect, the white man is responsible for everything including earthquakes and tsunamis.

No wonder nothing ever gets solved. Things are slowly heading for a bad end...

Edited June 19, 2009 by Wild Bill

[Wild Bill]

I think they are just craving excitement. Too bad the OPP and everybody else has to put up with them. It also costs us a lot of money for policing when the ijits are out and about with their flags or their "militia" or whatever.

Just let the courts do their job, I say. That's the thinking of most Canadians, I think.

Well, I guess a policy of appeasement is cheaper, at least in the short run.

As to the courts doing their job, they don't appear to be doing it! Certainly, the welfare of the townsfolk doesn't seem to be the court's concern. The natives may get the courts to give them any favourable ruling they want, for political reasons. That doesn't mean the entire town of Caledonia will be happy about it.

Me, I believe that there comes a time when you should do unto others as they have done unto you. Not as they have done unto your ancestors and not as others that happen to share your complexion have done.

Do unto other individuals specifically as those other individuals have done unto you! The idea of taking revenge against someone of the same race as someone who has wronged you is racism by definition, and frankly EVIL!

I'm not surprised you ignored my comment about Powless setting up a smoke shack on Fleming's property! Once again, protesters target the innocent. If Fleming has truly done everything you say he has then why on earth should Palmer be inconvenienced and aggravated?

Always the cheap and easy shot, I guess.

[Bonam]

If that is truly what you believe and that is the mindset of the protesters then it is truly futile to try and find any common ground.

What common ground is there to be found with an ideology that breeds a culture of guilt and self-hatred that would sacrifice every aspect of our society?

[tango]

I didn't know the entire history and frankly I don't see what difference it makes. I still don't understand why Powless is punishing Palmer for something Fleming talked about. I agree that Palmer made it quite clear that he wanted nothing to do with Fleming. Doesn't seem that Powless cares if Palmer is in with Fleming or not. Who is the racist here, I can't help but wonder.

I find the tone of your response odd, to say the least. It seems to imply that Powless was justified in his protest action of setting up a smoke shop on what he calls "stolen land". You seem to be a cheerleader, when you are very quick to attack any non-native for any protest action.

This is the very double standard that is offending non-natives!

You don't speak for all "non-natives".

I'm not justifying anything, just pointing out the facts.

Edited June 19, 2009 by tango

[tango]

As to the courts doing their job, they don't appear to be doing it! Certainly, the welfare of the townsfolk doesn't seem to be the court's concern. The natives may get the courts to give them any favourable ruling they want, for political reasons.

I'm referring to settling the 'land claims' issues in the courts.

The courts make legal judgments, not "political" ones.

However, the government negotiators make political judgments, not legal ones - ie, they do Harper's bidding.

Edited June 19, 2009 by tango

[Wild Bill]

I'm referring to settling the 'land claims' issues in the courts.

The courts make legal judgments, not "political" ones.

However, the government negotiators make political judgments, not legal ones - ie, they do Harper's bidding.

Your implied premise seems to be that the courts are politically independent.

That would command a thread of its own. A LOOONG thread!

You still didn't comment on how Powless is targeting an innocent. You claim that you are "simply pointing out the facts". Strange how you've never had a problem commenting when the shoe was on the other foot.

I'm starting to get a clearer picture here.

Edited June 19, 2009 by Wild Bill

[Borg]

Your comments are not particularly relevant to the topic, Oleg. Was that before the stalking law? Because you can get a restraining order now for that behaviour.

However, please confine yourself to the topic at hand, which is policing of native protests.

Oleg's comment - it is actually pertinent to the topic becuse it demonstrates why militias are a potential - especially when it comes to the law breakers who are never punished - note I will not name them for fear of being called a racist - oh what the heck - Indians - always a preferred treatment by the law and the legal system.

Send her a new broom Oleg - her old one is worn out.

Borg

Edited June 19, 2009 by Borg

[Argus]

That's an awful lot of generalizations with no supporting facts.

The people of Caledonia certainly have not been "deserted" by the OPP. In fact, there is a huge contingent of OPP in town.

From what I've read, the job the OPP has been assigned by their political masters to help the natives support their blocades and protect them from the angry citizenry. Oh, and above all make sure nothing happens that will embarrass dilton mcdoily and his crew of spineless, hand-wringing panseys.

Edited June 21, 2009 by Argus

[tango]

Your implied premise seems to be that the courts are politically independent.

That would command a thread of its own. A LOOONG thread!

You still didn't comment on how Powless is targeting an innocent. You claim that you are "simply pointing out the facts". Strange how you've never had a problem commenting when the shoe was on the other foot.

I'm starting to get a clearer picture here.

Keep off our lawn, pair tells fledgling Caledonia 'militia'

PETER EDWARDS/TORONTO STAR

Ernie Palmer is okay with Stephen Powless running smoke shop on his land.

Jun 19, 2009 04:30 AM

Comments on this story (4)

Peter Edwards

Staff Reporter

CALEDONIA–Ernie Palmer says he's smoking mad at locals who want to set up a "Caledonia Militia" in part to protect him from natives running a discount smoke shop on his front lawn.

"We have the OPP if there is lawlessness," the retiree said yesterday in an interview on his 19-hectare property on Highway 6.

However, he doesn't foresee any need for anyone to protect him from Oshweken resident Stephen (Boots) Powless, 44, one of the smoke shack's proprietors.

"I have found (Powless) a very nice man," said Palmer, who came to Canada from Hungary in 1957. "We have drunk so much coffee we're swimming. ... I have a good dialogue with Boots."

While he didn't invite Powless to set up on his land, Palmer said he respects the attempt to reinforce the assertion that native land claims can't be extinguished.

At one point in an interview on Palmer's lawn, Powless joined in and aimed a squirt gun at the property owner as if taking him hostage, which caused Palmer to burst out laughing.

http://www.thestar.com/article/653395

And ...

"The majority of people in Caledonia don't want this,"

OPP Inspector Dave McLean told Haldimand County Council Monday that Caledonia was being infected with "fabrications" and it was time people heard the truth.

Speaking directly to the issue of a smoke shack/information centre being set up on private land, he said reports of threats and intimidation of the landowner are a "total fabrication, total hogwash."

It was all based on a rumour and he said the OPP have an idea where the rumour started.

The OPP have spoken directly with the owner of the land and were told that it was "placed on his property with his agreement."

The man was aware of what he was doing, he was informed of the possible implications and consequences and "he would like to deal with it himself," McLean said.

There were "no threats, no intimidation. Word of threats and intimidation are entirely false," he said.

http://www.sachem.ca/news/article/178833

Seems you are behind in the news, bill.

Try to keep up, eh?

One more ...

http://www.sachem.ca/opinions/article/178834

Sachem editorial: "Militia a bad idea"

When word came out last week that a meeting was to be held to form something called the Caledonia militia, the first thing that leapt to mind was that this was the last thing anyone needed.

Militias, in their contemporary connotation, hold out visions of the people squirreled away in the Montana Mountains who believe in black helicopters, global conspiracies and worse.

The second thing was that it really is time for the adults to step forward. Marches, demonstrations and other forms of street theatre have accomplished nothing.

Oh ya, and this came through union communications:

*please forward widely*

A call for a peaceful protest against the formation of an anti-native

“militia” in Caledonia – Tuesday, June 23rd at 6pm Outside the Lion’s

Club in Cayuga, Ontario.

So ... if there's going to be a 'militia', there will also be an anti-militia.

Edited June 21, 2009 by tango

[charter.rights]

So ... if there's going to be a 'militia', there will also be an anti-militia.

And there will Warriors and bikers from all over North America coming to Caledonia.....

There is no law in civil or criminal codes which permits anyone to remove trespassers. The criminal code does provide the use of reasonable force by someone (specifically) who has a right to property and those who are assisting him (or her) to use "reasonable" force to remove the trespass.

However, Six Nations people have a right to the property (not the homes) on land that they believe is theirs, and this "colour of right" and the right of proprietary estopple gives them equal rights to the owner in many circumstances. The use of a militia in these instances, may lead not only to their arrest but may result in civil proceedings that would likely take their homes and other assets in payment. Exercising a force when one has no right or exercising unreasonable force under the law, is a crime in itself.

I would suggest that on the first occurrence the perpetrators of the militia- Doug Fleming and the other immature meat heads who keep trying to stir up crap will find their asses in jail, and a list of conditions so long that they will be years before they get their cell phones or access to the internet back. Frankly I would like to see it, if only to video how the bald-headed shit-flinging monkey at the top of the tree gets the branches cut out from beneath him.

But then again that wouldn't bother Gary McHale the Director of CANACE (accused of being behind this latest Caledonia uprising), because he has nothing to lose and Doug Fleming is just another sacrificial ewe for all the guys to get their jollies from. If he only had a brain....

Edited June 21, 2009 by charter.rights

[Wild Bill]

Keep off our lawn, pair tells fledgling Caledonia 'militia'

PETER EDWARDS/TORONTO STAR

Ernie Palmer is okay with Stephen Powless running smoke shop on his land.

Jun 19, 2009 04:30 AM

Comments on this story (4)

Peter Edwards

Staff Reporter

CALEDONIA–Ernie Palmer says he's smoking mad at locals who want to set up a "Caledonia Militia" in part to protect him from natives running a discount smoke shop on his front lawn.

"We have the OPP if there is lawlessness," the retiree said yesterday in an interview on his 19-hectare property on Highway 6.

However, he doesn't foresee any need for anyone to protect him from Oshweken resident Stephen (Boots) Powless, 44, one of the smoke shack's proprietors.

"I have found (Powless) a very nice man," said Palmer, who came to Canada from Hungary in 1957. "We have drunk so much coffee we're swimming. ... I have a good dialogue with Boots."

While he didn't invite Powless to set up on his land, Palmer said he respects the attempt to reinforce the assertion that native land claims can't be extinguished.

At one point in an interview on Palmer's lawn, Powless joined in and aimed a squirt gun at the property owner as if taking him hostage, which caused Palmer to burst out laughing.

http://www.thestar.com/article/653395

And ...

"The majority of people in Caledonia don't want this,"

OPP Inspector Dave McLean told Haldimand County Council Monday that Caledonia was being infected with "fabrications" and it was time people heard the truth.

Speaking directly to the issue of a smoke shack/information centre being set up on private land, he said reports of threats and intimidation of the landowner are a "total fabrication, total hogwash."

It was all based on a rumour and he said the OPP have an idea where the rumour started.

The OPP have spoken directly with the owner of the land and were told that it was "placed on his property with his agreement."

The man was aware of what he was doing, he was informed of the possible implications and consequences and "he would like to deal with it himself," McLean said.

There were "no threats, no intimidation. Word of threats and intimidation are entirely false," he said.

http://www.sachem.ca/news/article/178833

Seems you are behind in the news, bill.

Try to keep up, eh?

One more ...

http://www.sachem.ca/opinions/article/178834

Sachem editorial: "Militia a bad idea"

When word came out last week that a meeting was to be held to form something called the Caledonia militia, the first thing that leapt to mind was that this was the last thing anyone needed.

Militias, in their contemporary connotation, hold out visions of the people squirreled away in the Montana Mountains who believe in black helicopters, global conspiracies and worse.

The second thing was that it really is time for the adults to step forward. Marches, demonstrations and other forms of street theatre have accomplished nothing.

Oh ya, and this came through union communications:

*please forward widely*

A call for a peaceful protest against the formation of an anti-native

“militia” in Caledonia – Tuesday, June 23rd at 6pm Outside the Lion’s

Club in Cayuga, Ontario.

So ... if there's going to be a 'militia', there will also be an anti-militia.

You're weaseling around my point, trying to make it something different and thus easier to defend, I guess.

I already said that Palmer had a right to do whatever he wanted. If he didn't want to formally complain and felt he had an agreement with Powless then that was his business.

That makes your entire 'rebuttal' post irrelevant.

My issue was with Powless' statement that because FLEMING was talking about a militia then he would NOT leave PALMER'S land!

In effect, he is punishing Palmer for something Fleming did.

How many times to I have to state it? Are you deliberately dodging my point or are you just a bit down on your caffeine level?

Would you like to comment on my actual point or would you rather launch an essay on the price of tea in China?

[charter.rights]

You're weaseling around my point, trying to make it something different and thus easier to defend, I guess.

I already said that Palmer had a right to do whatever he wanted. If he didn't want to formally complain and felt he had an agreement with Powless then that was his business.

That makes your entire 'rebuttal' post irrelevant.

My issue was with Powless' statement that because FLEMING was talking about a militia then he would NOT leave PALMER'S land!

In effect, he is punishing Palmer for something Fleming did.

How many times to I have to state it? Are you deliberately dodging my point or are you just a bit down on your caffeine level?

Would you like to comment on my actual point or would you rather launch an essay on the price of tea in China?

Palmer doesn't care if Powless leaves his land because he has stated it is nobody's business but his. They are friends - get it? If they have an agreement for the placement of the smoke shack or for its removal it isn't Doug Fleming or the Militia's business, or for that matter your business. And if Ernie Palmer wanted help he would go to the OPP and not some bald headed monkey's shit-flinging organization.

The fact of the matter is there IS NO issue. Get it?

[tango]

You're weaseling around my point, trying to make it something different and thus easier to defend, I guess.

I already said that Palmer had a right to do whatever he wanted. If he didn't want to formally complain and felt he had an agreement with Powless then that was his business.

That makes your entire 'rebuttal' post irrelevant.

My issue was with Powless' statement that because FLEMING was talking about a militia then he would NOT leave PALMER'S land!

In effect, he is punishing Palmer for something Fleming did.

How many times to I have to state it? Are you deliberately dodging my point or are you just a bit down on your caffeine level?

Would you like to comment on my actual point or would you rather launch an essay on the price of tea in China?

Powless is not "punishing" Palmer at all. They are both enjoying each other's company and it's nobody's business but theirs.

Mired in petty details as you are, you are missing the big picture, but I won't repeat it because it's all there for you to read and digest.

Here's some food for thought for you. My research and ruminations and ponderings lead me to these opinions:

Doug Fleming is just a front for Gary McHale, who is designing and organizing the whole Caledonia 'militia' thing.

Gary McHale has a long history of association with white supremacists:

He's a front for them. (Note: Source cannot be revealed.)

Caledonia is a chosen battlefield for white supremacists to reign supreme in an Ontario town.

Haldimand County Council and the business and community leaders of Caledonia, by choice or by inaction, have virtually turned over the leadership of the town to white supremacists.

And it looks like the beginnings of a glimmer of awareness of the fact that they have given away the town is surfacing in the Sachem ... Too late?

Just my thoughts. Others may differ.

But let me ask you something, Bill: What do you think would be the best possible outcome for everyone - Six Nations and Caledonia - for the future?

[Wild Bill]

But let me ask you something, Bill: What do you think would be the best possible outcome for everyone - Six Nations and Caledonia - for the future?

First off, I just can't buy the premise that white supremacists are behind the whole thing. It's like blaming the Illuminati. Especially when you say you can't reveal the source. That leaves us with nothing but your own personal opinion.

I wouldn't even accept that from God!

As for the best possible outcome, that's complicated. Still, I can't see success and happiness at the end of the present situation.

To me, it looks like Six Nations are trying to ensure their financial future by finding ways to extract more money from the mainstream culture. I have more respect for the Montour businessmen with their tobacco industry. At least they produce their own wealth.

If Six Nations wanted to preserve their heritage why would they need money? They never needed to be plugged into the white man's economy before. So the idea of funding "traditional lifestyle" is a non-starter. I mentioned many posts ago how I had an aboriginal ward mate for my heart operation. Obviously he choose modern technology over traditional shamanistic techniques.

I would suggest that Six Nations is in the same boat as every other Canadian. It's getting harder and harder to make a living! The difference is that Six Nations doesn't seem to have the economic infrastructure to produce wealth by themselves. They seem fixated on just getting more out of mainstream governments.

Even if they succeed in getting everything that they're asking for it can only be a temporary solution. Eventually the money will run out. If there is no new revenue stream then they will be in the same position they are today. What's the point?

They want to be considered sovereign while on the dole to Canada. To me, this makes no sense. It's like a teenager thinking they're independent while they live with their parents and have no job. Land claims are like thinking the way to prosper in life is to get a big bequest from your parents early in life.

I'm well aware that aboriginals are no different from anyone else in mainstream Canadian society. They're doctors, lawyers, scientists, businessmen and just ordinary working men and women. Still, that's in mainstream society.

What comes from a reserve? Any medical centres developing cures for cancer? Any inventions like compact fluorescent lamps to reduce electricity consumption?

How about the heart bypass operation that saved me, my ward mate and so many others?

I know that in your world view and that of CR I must be a racist because I disagree with you, even if it was just on one thing rather than so much. I don't believe that myself of course. I always find such charges to be just ways of dodging explaining poorly thought out debating positions.

However, I will admit that I find some cultures to be more positive than others. I don't claim to know a lot about every reserve or band in Canada. I'm aware of a few that I find very positive, mostly in western Canada and the North. I never thought much about Six Nations until the latest protests. Before then I just thought they were good neighbours with hundreds of years of history together.

The protests changed all that. Not for the land claims. This must be the hundredth time I've stated that I take no position on their validity. What offended me were the native protest TACTICS!

They may not have even thought about it but their actions primarily affected the townspeople, who are not the ones that can resolve their claims. In effect, they are targeting innocents. To me, there's no difference between killing the electricity to the entire town and launching rockets from Gaza, except in degree.

It was their tactics that made me lose respect for them, not their claims.

Still, that's only a sidebar. It's obvious that the protesters are going to have to escalate their actions. McGuinty is just hoping that if he stalls long enough the protest will just fizzle out and die. Or it will be delayed until it's the next Premier's problem and no longer his. The Feds seem to have put the Caledonia issue far down their list of land claim priorities. Meanwhile, they can enjoy watching a Liberal government in Ontario twist in the wind.

Just one final note. This is why I found Powless' position to be so strange:

"Powless said he had been ready to pack up and leave when Fleming put out his call to form the militia.

"I'm not going to turn tail and run.... If the militia is coming after me, then let's see them."

This was a quote from the original Spectator article. Since it wasn't explained at the start that Powless and Palmer were actually friends and that the issue of a smoke shack on non-native land was actually a setup I made a natural assumption that Powless' was being unfair to Palmer.

Now that I know that it never was a case of Powless squatting on some random property owner's soil with a smoke shop it does indeed make sense.

[tango]

First off, I just can't buy the premise that white supremacists are behind the whole thing. It's like blaming the Illuminati. Especially when you say you can't reveal the source. That leaves us with nothing but your own personal opinion.

I wouldn't even accept that from God!

As for the best possible outcome, that's complicated. Still, I can't see success and happiness at the end of the present situation.

To me, it looks like Six Nations are trying to ensure their financial future by finding ways to extract more money from the mainstream culture. I have more respect for the Montour businessmen with their tobacco industry. At least they produce their own wealth.

If Six Nations wanted to preserve their heritage why would they need money? They never needed to be plugged into the white man's economy before. So the idea of funding "traditional lifestyle" is a non-starter. I mentioned many posts ago how I had an aboriginal ward mate for my heart operation. Obviously he choose modern technology over traditional shamanistic techniques.

I would suggest that Six Nations is in the same boat as every other Canadian. It's getting harder and harder to make a living! The difference is that Six Nations doesn't seem to have the economic infrastructure to produce wealth by themselves. They seem fixated on just getting more out of mainstream governments.

Even if they succeed in getting everything that they're asking for it can only be a temporary solution. Eventually the money will run out. If there is no new revenue stream then they will be in the same position they are today. What's the point?

They want to be considered sovereign while on the dole to Canada. To me, this makes no sense. It's like a teenager thinking they're independent while they live with their parents and have no job. Land claims are like thinking the way to prosper in life is to get a big bequest from your parents early in life.

I'm well aware that aboriginals are no different from anyone else in mainstream Canadian society. They're doctors, lawyers, scientists, businessmen and just ordinary working men and women. Still, that's in mainstream society.

What comes from a reserve? Any medical centres developing cures for cancer? Any inventions like compact fluorescent lamps to reduce electricity consumption?

How about the heart bypass operation that saved me, my ward mate and so many others?

I know that in your world view and that of CR I must be a racist because I disagree with you, even if it was just on one thing rather than so much. I don't believe that myself of course. I always find such charges to be just ways of dodging explaining poorly thought out debating positions.

However, I will admit that I find some cultures to be more positive than others. I don't claim to know a lot about every reserve or band in Canada. I'm aware of a few that I find very positive, mostly in western Canada and the North. I never thought much about Six Nations until the latest protests. Before then I just thought they were good neighbours with hundreds of years of history together.

The protests changed all that. Not for the land claims. This must be the hundredth time I've stated that I take no position on their validity. What offended me were the native protest TACTICS!

They may not have even thought about it but their actions primarily affected the townspeople, who are not the ones that can resolve their claims. In effect, they are targeting innocents. To me, there's no difference between killing the electricity to the entire town and launching rockets from Gaza, except in degree.

It was their tactics that made me lose respect for them, not their claims.

Still, that's only a sidebar. It's obvious that the protesters are going to have to escalate their actions. McGuinty is just hoping that if he stalls long enough the protest will just fizzle out and die. Or it will be delayed until it's the next Premier's problem and no longer his. The Feds seem to have put the Caledonia issue far down their list of land claim priorities. Meanwhile, they can enjoy watching a Liberal government in Ontario twist in the wind.

Just one final note. This is why I found Powless' position to be so strange:

"Powless said he had been ready to pack up and leave when Fleming put out his call to form the militia.

"I'm not going to turn tail and run.... If the militia is coming after me, then let's see them."

This was a quote from the original Spectator article. Since it wasn't explained at the start that Powless and Palmer were actually friends and that the issue of a smoke shack on non-native land was actually a setup I made a natural assumption that Powless' was being unfair to Palmer.

Now that I know that it never was a case of Powless squatting on some random property owner's soil with a smoke shop it does indeed make sense.

Exactly ... and how many other people draw wrong conclusions from speculation and too little accurate information?

That's how stereotypes do damage.

From my perspective, their tactics were in proportion to the attacks on them.

Powless and Palmer became friends as things progressed. Certainly Palmer never wanted anyone else, not even police, interfering with their arrangement.

The militia ... now the "peacekeepers" ... will have to drum up some new business!

Vigilantes patrolling the streets is on the menu, I hear, leading me to say ... don't plan on walking around in Caledonia anytime soon.

What will it be this time ... driving golf balls at Six Nations people again perhaps?

Six Nations doesn't seem to have the economic infrastructure to produce wealth by themselves. They seem fixated on just getting more out of mainstream governments.

Again, exactly, they need the infrastructure and they have debts owing to them, land and compensation. It's collection time.

It's long past time for the government to produce its accounting for Six Nations land and money.

Edited June 25, 2009 by tango

[NativeCharm]

It's long past time for the government to produce its accounting for Six Nations land and money.

It is my hope that the peoples of Caledonia and Six Nations can be a positive role model for the other Treaties that are in negotiations and working towards settlement.

The sooner, the better, for everyone.

All peoples, Nation to Nation must make their own governments take immediate action.

[Wild Bill]

From my perspective, their tactics were in proportion to the attacks on them.

Again, exactly, they need the infrastructure and they have debts owing to them, land and compensation. It's collection time.

I stated their tactics targeted innocents. Is it then your position that targeting innocents is justified?

Does it boil down to "The white folks ripped us off so we will hurt any white folks that are handy!"?

As for it being collection time, I said that they can get all the money they claim. What happens when it runs out? Will SN just demand more?

If they don't set up the economic infrastructure to sustain and produce wealth they will repeatedly end up poor. Feast or famine, from bailout to bailout.

They need education. They need business and industry. They need white folks to be a market to supply new wealth from trade.

They have to essentially become more like mainstream Canada. Their isolation is obviously not self-sustaining. It is a parasitical relationship. Canada provides high tech medicine. SN provides 'spiritual ceremonies'.

Do you really think that their road to self-sustaining prosperity is to demand more from Ottawa every year?

Sooner or later, if SN wants to be sovereign they must make it possible to have a heart bypass operation without leaving the reserve.

To consider oneself to be sovereign and independent when you are totally dependent on someone else for your money, your defense and your health is just fooling yourself.

[tango]

A group of Caledonia residents attempting to form a militia should be prepared to go to court, Ontario Provincial Police Commissioner Julian Fantino says.

"The days of vigilantism are long gone in this country," Commissioner Fantino said yesterday. "That group had better seek good and adequate legal counsel because, if they exercise what they think is their right and their authority, they better be prepared to defend themselves, as we always have, and justify what they do."

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/canada/st...html?id=1731269

Protestors descend upon Cayuga

Posted By BOB LIDDYCOAT , CHRONICLE MANAGING EDITOR

Posted 2 days ago

http://www.dunnvillechronicle.com/ArticleD....aspx?e=1626658

The formation of a militia in Caledonia is being met with opposition from points across Southern Ontario.

Last week Caledonia resident Doug Fleming announced he would be forming a citizens' militia to address problems he perceives as being ignored by the Ontario Provincial Police. In a published release Fleming said, "Due to the ongoing reality that the OPP refuses to enforce the Criminal Code with regards to people's property rights I am forming the Caledonia Militia to ensure that the criminal code is upheld in Haldimand County."

The action stems from his contention there is a two-tiered justice system in Caledonia which favours Six Nations residents and penalizes property owners in Caledonia by arresting non-native trespassers while ignoring occupations by Six Nations members.

At press time a meeting was taking place in the Cayuga Lions Hall for anyone interested in joining Fleming's private group of law enforcers.

Scheduled to coincide with the meeting a protest rally was taking place outside the building by non-natives who oppose the idea of a militia.

Busloads of protesters arrived from Toronto, Kitchener, Guelph and other areas around 6 p. m. Monday evening. The protest was organized by the Canadian Union of Public Employees 3903, First Nations Solidarity Working Group.

Spokesperson Tom Keefer told The Chronicle he believes the idea of a militia is really being coordinated by activist Gary McHale who has often been at the centre of controversy between Caledonia and Six Nations residents.

"I believe McHale is the driving force behind the militia. He will be speaking at the meeting and is their self-appointed legal expert," said Keefer.

He also doubts McHale's motives saying, "I believe McHale is financially benefiting from this situation and is fanning the flames. If he lets things quiet down then he and his group will be out of business," he said.

Keefer said his protest group is composed entirely of non-natives. He claims their efforts are completely peaceful.

"We are not strangers to the issue. We have been there practically on a weekly basis over the past three years. We have been working in the area with pot luck dinners, and community meetings but we've never seen fit to add fuel to the fire. We feel McHale is dangerous and disruptive but we've never interrupted his activities before. Flag raising is one thing but the formation of a militia is entirely different," he said. "A call to militia is a dangerous escalation. This time they've gone too far," he contends.

I think the 'Caledonia militia' is a non-starter.

Gary McHale is trying to foment trouble in Caledonia/Six Nations and in Deseronto/Tyendinaga.

Shouting yields to common ground

PICTON MEETING: Natives, Deseronto residents

Posted By LUKE HENDRY THE INTELLIGENCER

Updated 1 hour ago

What began as a shouting match led to some meaningful talks here Thursday evening as the area's Mohawk protesters and non-native residents tried to resolve tensions.

...

"We would love to hear from the people who came here from Deseronto," Nikki Storms, who has protested with both the Mohawks and TAG, said as she jabbed a finger at McHale. "You can go home."

Cindy Welsh addressed the Mohawks, saying they "have a voice" but that "our livelihood's affected too" when blockades are formed.

"Do you people even give a damn that we were put out?" Welsh said, provoking a bellow from Tyendinaga's Jerome Barnhart.

"We've been put out for 300 years," he shouted. "Are you insane?"

The mood calmed as McHale stepped aside, pledging, "We'll be back." Talks progressed even after Welsh began to cancel the "unproductive" meeting.

"Is there a way we can work together to get our points across?" asked Andy Leversedge, who had earlier told The Intelligencer he moved his family from their home near the Mohawk-occupied quarry in Deseronto because he felt threatened.

"What I'm trying to find out is how everybody can get what they want," he said.

http://www.intelligencer.ca/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1630416

It appears that with protesters dogging his footsteps, McHale is not making much progress.

Edited June 26, 2009 by tango